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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Ebay - Been Conned and feel very very silly - any advice?!


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perplexity- it is a bit of a grey area as according to eBay the policy on Distance Selling states that "the DSR generally apply to sales to non-business buyers made by sellers acting in the course of a business, which have been made at a distance".

 

There is an often quoted mention of "Sales by private individuals not acting for business purposes" in the OFTs guidance for businesses on distance selling, which must be construed according to section 210 of the Enterprise Act, according to which a business includes "any undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge".

 

2,19 of the Guidance then proceeds to inform:

 

How do the DSRs apply to auction sites on the internet?

 

This depends on specific circumstances, for example:

 

• the contractual relationship between the website provider and

the seller

• whether the seller is acting as a supplier within the meaning of

the DSRs

• whether the seller is operating under an organised distance sales

or service provision scheme, and

• whether the buyer is a consumer within the meaning of the DSRs.

 

I think it fair to say that eBay is an organised distance sales or service provision scheme that all the sellers operate under so in view of a contractual relationship between the website provider and the seller, the commercial capacity that eBay provides, exactly equivalent for all the members, I reserve the right to treat them all on the same basis. eBay and Paypal treat them all on the same basis when a dispute between a buyer and a seller is referred to their auspices, and so shall I.

 

An application of the Regulations has to depend on the contractual relationship with eBay, because the User Agreement prescribes the terms of a contract between the buyer and the seller that the Regulations apply to. According to the agreement with eBay: Buyers cannot commit to buying an item (either by winning the item or buying an item in a Buy It Now listing) without paying. Therefore, execpt to construe that the Regulations apply to those terms, there is no right for any member to cancel a contract on eBay under section 10 of the DSRs.

 

This appears to be confirmed by the European Directive's recital (10):

 

.... there must at least be compliance with the provisions of this Directive at the time of the first of a series of successive operations or the first of a series of separate operations over a period of time which may be considered as forming a whole, whether that operation or series of operations are the subject of a single contract or successive, separate contracts;

 

It amazes me that the sellers who proudly confess to their legal responsibilities are so willing to put up with the cheats who continue to dodge the law, with eBay's connivance, nor do I hear of a buyer who would rather not be told the address of a seller he buys from.

 

:!:

 

P.S.

 

 

Other than that you are right, the dsrs only apply to business sellers.

 

Section 4 of the Distance Selling Regulations tells us, precisely, what they apply to:

 

4. These Regulations apply, subject to regulation 6, to distance contracts other than excepted contracts.

 

A seller is a person. A contract is not a person, and the contract need not be a contract of sale, just a contract concerning goods or services concluded between a supplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme run by the supplier.

 

It is completely irrelevant, whether or not eBay is a company. eBay could just as well be a private person and still be the supplier of the eBay service, the organised distance sales or service provision scheme, the means of distance communication, the website provider.

 

:lol:

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Yeah. We should sympathise really. One of the problems is reading. Most of us, for example, read around a subject before offering advice, or read an entire SI or act. In this case he just stopped and didn't add in the bits that clarified that "“distance contract” means any contract concerning goods or services concluded between asupplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme runby the supplier who, for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or moremeans of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract isconcluded;"and that "“supplier” means any person who, in contracts to which these Regulations apply, is acting inhis commercial or professional capacity;"Maybe we could have a whip around? Buy him a textbook or something?

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Perpy cant help it!

 

Every community has a Perpy. In local communities they confine themselves to insisting the village football team wear team blazers and caps when travelling to a match or some such rubbish because that was the rule in the 1920s. One saving grace on this forum is that Perpy never actually offers any practical advice whereas those who know what they're talking about do. Hopefully most of those who come here in need will be able to see the difference.

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Yeah. We should sympathise really. One of the problems is reading. Most of us, for example, read around a subject before offering advice, or read an entire SI or act. In this case he just stopped and didn't add in the bits that clarified that "“distance contract” means any contract concerning goods or services concluded between asupplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme runby the supplier who, for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or moremeans of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract isconcluded;"and that "“supplier” means any person who, in contracts to which these Regulations apply, is acting inhis commercial or professional capacity;"

 

You therefore apply the Regulations, by considering section 3, a part of the Regulations, so concede the point: The Regulations apply to distance contracts other than excepted contracts.

 

Section 4 lists the excepted contracts, no part of which applies to a sale on eBay, or those so keen to encourage the crooks at large to deny the Regulations would have told us that.

 

It is therefore a deliberately ignorant fabrication, a defamatory offence to suppose that I did not consider as much for what I wrote before is precisely what appears as a part of the definition of a distance contract, according to section 3:

 

The contract need not be a contract of sale, just a contract concerning goods or services concluded between a supplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme run by the supplier.

(emphasis added).

 

eBay is of course an organised distance sales or service provision scheme run by eBay, the supplier of the service, so the commercial capacity of the seller to eventually supply the goods is of course the capacity provided by the service, according to the User Agreement, the same for all the members.

 

This should not be so difficult to appreciate. Trade on eBay is commerce. Sellers pay fees to list. It is not just done for fun.

 

8-)

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One saving grace on this forum is that Perpy never actually offers any practical advice whereas those who know what they're talking about do. Hopefully most of those who come here in need will be able to see the difference.

 

And that is another lie, a deliberately ignorant, demonstrably false, gratuitously offensive fabrication.

 

Here is some practical advice: If that is the best you have to offer, with nothing of any relevance to contribute with regard to subject of discussion, don't bother. Keep your stupid crap to yourself.

 

:roll:

 

P.S.

 

If in all sincerity you believe that it's a good idea to allow a seller on eBay to conceal his name and address; if you are honestly and seriously so willing to purchase goods from such an individual, it might be better to tell us what your interest is in this, and why you would, and the same would go for Kraken1.

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We're not saying that it is a good idea that eBay allows sellers to coceal stuff, we're just saying that your advice isn't credible. And is mostly wrong. Like the above, which is about as credible as the chap at the local who insists he was chilling with a rifle on the grassy knoll in nov 1963.

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Thanks anyway, but anonymous opinions as to what is credible or wrong are cheaper than dirt, to be found on any online forum without so much as the asking, already seen before, in spades.

 

In the mean time, actions speak louder than words. What is not so easy to come by is the answer to this sort of question:

 

When and where did a legal action or prosecution against an eBay seller fail, because a judge refused to apply the Distance Selling Regulations, or any other part of the consumer protection legislation because of a seller's pretension to "private", so excepted?

 

When and where was an eBay seller prosecuted, ever, for "Falsely claiming or creating the impression that the trader is not acting for purposes relating to his trade, business, craft or profession, or falsely representing oneself as a consumer"? (CPUTR Regs, Schedule 1.22)

 

I seriously doubt that such a charge could ever succeed as such because of the self evident fact that an eBay seller acts for a business purpose, to sell goods, in view of the definition of a business provided by s.210.

 

What might be more likely to succeed is the prosecution of an eBay shill, who posts to an internet forum as if on behalf of consumers, but works for the company.

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When and where did a legal action or prosecution against an ebaylink3.gif seller fail, because a judge refused to apply the Distance Selling Regulations

 

Quote one which succeeded against a private seller. If no such case has been brought then it's a sort of truth to say one has never failed but it's equally true to say one has never succeeded.

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Quote one which succeeded against a private seller. If no such case has been brought then it's a sort of truth to say one has never failed but it's equally true to say one has never succeeded.

 

Read the thread.

 

I had already told you that during the course of L'Oreal versus eBay, a judge found that a number of "private" sellers were no such thing. The judge was "not persuaded that it (DSRs] would be relevant to the issues arising in this case", but it was most certainly not the case that any defendant was let off because of the claim to be private.

 

What I want to know is why there is never the news of the criminal conviction of this sort of seller, to deter the practice. It is impossible to believe that the OFT are anything but well aware of what goes on.

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I refer you to my earlier comment: blah blah blah. those three words are all your strange nonsense-filled posts are worth. You must be quite a cross person that no-one in the entire world agrees with you.

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So how does that prove private, non-business sellers are subject to DSRs?

 

:!:

 

Nobody has to. The burden of proof is on the supplier, to claim an exception.

 

(22) Whereas in the use of new technologies the consumer is not in control of the means of communication used; whereas it is therefore necessary to provide that the burden of proof may be on the supplier;

 

(1997/7/EC)

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(3) 'supplier` means any natural or legal person who, in contracts covered by this Directive, is acting in his commercial or professional capacity;

 

From the same document. If I sell a bicycle because my child has outgrown it I am not acting in my commercial or professional capacity. This is completely different from buying in and selling on a load of L'Oreal product.

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And that, ladies and gents (and anyone watching from the cheap seats), was Perpy being owned by hightail. That's about a million-four (perp gets some stuff right) in favour of sensible advice.

 

Ding ding! Round two!

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Hi everybody, all your information is invaluable - I still have no tickets and no response from the seller - plus when I tried calling ebay yesterday they now request you have a pin ID to get through to them so gave up after holding for absolute ages because I had to pick up children. Anyway I have much more confidence to proceed with the Police and start the proceedings from there. It was interesting to hear a law enforcement option on the ebay number though so will be passing that on to the Police too.Once again thanks for the info - will update the post and let you know how I get on.Thanks.

 

Ok, this doesn't answer your question, but I am posting it to raise awareness about SOME sellers on eBay (of which I am one I hasten to add!!).

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1500189/Teenager-faces-jail-for-eBay-ticket-[problem].html

 

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/4967055.__95_000_eBay_fraudster_must_pay_back_only___1/?ref=mr

 

I'm sure many of you will already have read about this guy but it does demonstrate that criminal action can and is undertaken for eBay fraud.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

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From the same document. If I sell a bicycle because my child has outgrown it I am not acting in my commercial or professional capacity. This is completely different from buying in and selling on a load of L'Oreal product.

 

:?:

 

So how exactly then, would you prove an exception but with not so much as an address to show who are and what your business would be?

 

Otherwise, I would rather not be taken for so much of a fool.

 

Sellers pay a fee to sell on eBay because it provides a commercial capacity that is not available elsewhere, to get the best price, whatever they sell, and when they join they therefore undertake to abide by the same rules as the rest, whoever they are. Not so completely different at all, the Agreement is the same for all and so is the law called the common law because we have it in common.

 

Buyers whinge in the same way when they buy goods from abroad as a "gift" and then they found that there is a duty to pay for the import, because the "non-commercial" exemption requires that a consignment is "sent by the sender to the consignee without payment of any kind."

 

If you fancy a chance to find a definition of "commercial", to a different effect in any part of the legislation I warn you not to waste the time, and if you happen to hear of a prosecution of an ebaylink3.gif seller that failed because a judge refused to apply the Distance Selling Regulations, or any other part of the consumer protection legislation because of a seller's pretension to be "private", do let us know.

 

I shall not be holding my breath in the mean time.

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Originally Posted by hightail

From the same document. If I sell a bicycle because my child has outgrown it I am not acting in my commercial or professional capacity. This is completely different from buying in and selling on a load of L'Oreal product.

 

 

So how exactly then, would you prove an exception but with not so much as an address to show who are and what your business would be?

 

So let me get this straight, because this is quite odd even for you Perpy - you are asking how a seller would claim an exemption if he didn't know what his address is and who he is? Do you have a problem forgetting where you live? I'm fairly certain I know where I live, by the way.

 

That is quite brilliant.

 

As an aside, you don't need to establish that an exemption applies until it has been shown that the regs apply. You've missed a bit of your pleadings. I'd guess that is because you are basing your advice on google, and not actually having studied or done any of this stuff.

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and so is the law called the common law because we have it in common.

 

And not be pedantic (well, just a bit) it is actually 'common' because it applies to all, not because we have it in common. It is an important distinction to make as 'having it in common' implies it is the same universally, when in fact it is commonly applied to all and arose because it was created out of disparate systems and applied to all. I dare say you'll want to argue that this is wrong next, probably because of some misinterpretation of some bit of irrelevant statute. How about the Interpretation Act? We've not had that for a while...

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The problem was not that it might not have been possible to prove that the contract was a distance contract.

 

The problem was that

 

..... the paypal transaction does not show the sellers address and you can not get the members information unless you have an ongoing transaction with the seller otherwise I would call them. Obviously I will be contacting ebay and paypal but know from experience that I will get no help what so ever, my real question is can I take this any further as I will try and follow it up, may be an expensive learning curve but any help would be appreciated!

 

The statute that I therefore pointed out was

 

Section 6(4)© of the The Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (not the Distance Selling Regulations), in order convince the police or anybody else of the fact that it is a strict liability criminal offence for the trader to be selling but with nothing to tell you where to send a summons if need be.

 

For good measure,The Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002 also require that any natural or legal person providing an information society service "shall make available" a name, geographical address and electronic mail address.

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Oh dear! To try and get back to basics.............

 

Just a thought have you tried looking at the Paypal transaction? The Sellers name and email address should appear in your account details. Hopefully this is a traceable detail for future complaint to whoever.

 

I've been selling for many years being totally honest can't see how people can do this to Buyers. My telephone number is available to the Buyer and of course i send everything by recorded delivery with return address on parcel. But the I send the goods!

 

Surely when you sell with eBay you agree to their terms of selling if many Sellers thought all the law quoted by Perplexity was invoked they would run a mile!

 

Can't resist a little suggestion re selling outgrown bike. If everyone who sold an unwanted item was deemed to be selling as a business the tax man would have a

field day! Just thinking free ad papers, car boots etc. But I suppose there is then the argument "sold as seen".

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