Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
        • Thanks
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Music Licence PPL or PRS or Both


icepop55
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3270 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I am in the Hairdressing business. I have always paid towards a 'Music Licence'. In this instants a PRS Fee. Up to now the PPL has written to me saying I also need its licence.

As the rules apply if I am a PRS feeing body I dont need the PPL licence. But, the PPL say I need both Licences!!! Stricky speaking, the PRS is for live music and PPL radio stuff.

I wish to know where I stand on this issue?

As a small business, althougth I RESENT paying one but to pay for two licences I find this differcult credence uncredible and hard to take.

Can someone help me with this matter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes you do actually need both.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

sent you a pm-since the info I think will help is copyright and so cant post ATM.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Hi - I have just had the same experience. I received a phone call from a 'Witheld' telephone number - which automatically makes one think this is a [problem]. I pay the annual PRS licence and now have just got 1 invoice for a current licence and a 50% surcharge for not having notified the PPL that I am playing music in a workshop. I run a legitimate business in manufacturing/construction. Times are tough for our industry at the moment and I find it rather difficult to take that I am receiving a fine for something I have never heard of. If I have to pay for the licence, thats ok, but a fine ? It would be most helpful if you could DM the information you you discussed above here.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

My wife is in the same situation, and ppl have just sent an invoice for £400 for her small gift shop.

 

She has paid the prs licence for two years, and now ppl come along and charge her her last year, next year and a fine for not having a licence that she knew nothing about until they rang her.

 

I'm inclined to say "see you in court" and see what they have to sue for - breach of contract? What contract?

 

Any ideas welcomed as we don't have £400 and to be honest, even if we did, why should we pay it?

 

Sb

stupidboy

 

Starting the long haul back to sanity...

BoS CC - no agreement, £4663 struck off

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you answered your own question.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

i work for a company and we have paid the prs licence for the last 6 years. we had no knowledge of needing a ppl licence until an employee rang from ppl rang them. we gave them the details for our operations and 2 days letter they presented us with an invoice for £33,000 for the last 6 years and a 50% surcharge!!!

From the posts it seems that we do need both licences, but why just a stupid system of needing to pay to 2 seperate companies

Question 1) can they go back 6 years 2) do we have to pay the surcharge.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who has sent the demand can you give us the postcode ?

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all including Martin, fortunately this isn't about my Vodafone cause for a change.

 

My parents business have been put in a similar position in the last few weeks and have asked me to investigate.

 

They have always had PRS subscription and paid.

 

They have now received a demand of payment from the PPL for the next two years usage and for last year with their additional 50% surchage levied on top. Do they really need it and are they bound to pay for last year having never been 'signed up'.

 

Please can I receive all advice and if you can't post in the thread don't hesitate to PM me.

 

Kind regards

 

philharg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi first of all.I think we need to clear up one thing.

PRS and PPL are not like HMRC -they are not a Government body at all.

They are an organisation who represents artists and musicians.

It is for PPL to show and prove that there are fees payable from the last year.

It is unreasonable to be expecting any payment upfront for the next 2 years.

The surcharge unless they can substantiate otherwise,looks to be a penalty charge which is unenforcable under common law.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

PPL and PRS represent different parts of the music industry - one is for the writers and one is for the actual record companies I believe.

 

They collect music on behalf of the musicians.

 

If you play music in a comemrcial place then you are using copyrighted works. Technically they can sue you for breaching copyright. To avoid doing that they may just ask you to 'back pay' for previous use.

 

Obviously you cna decide whether to pay up or let them take you to court.

 

Going forward, the poitn of the licence fee is so that you can play copyrighted music without breaching copyright alw.s

 

If you want to 'get out' of paying the fees in the future then either dont play music or play really old music that has no copyright on it anymore. (or you can get copyright eprmission directly from smaller artist sthat may not be covred by PPL/PRS).

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm inclined to say "see you in court" and see what they have to sue for - breach of contract? What contract?

 

 

Copyright law gives people protection for their work. If you use someones work without their permission they cansue you for damages.

 

There doesnt need to be a contract.

 

BTW I am not trying to scare you - I have no idea whther they will actually bother to sue you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

HI all

 

I have just been phoned by PPL.

I knew nothing of this licenece requirement just like other people on this forum

I currently pay for a PRS licence now that they reduced their minimum fee.

Before they reduced the fee, which was a ridiculous amount for a small business who has no customers visiting, I refused to pay for me and my wife to listen to the radio especially when somene doing the same work from home does not need to pay. The calculatuion system was also ridiculously complicated.

 

It seems that PPL have now jumped on the bandwaggon of targeting small businesses.

They have quoted me £71 plus a penalty totalling £130. this is a lot of money for a small business especially when we thought we had sorted this by paying around £50 to PRS.

 

If PPL force me to pay I will take out the radio as before and then PPL and PRS will get nothing.

 

I also question how much of this money, if I pay any of course, actually goes to the artists we listen to.

 

Why don't they get together and make a simple low fee for small businesses (les than 5 people say) who have no customer face and inform all businesses of the need, if there really is one. This would probably result in increasing the total revenue considerably as there would not be the people who are unaware of the need for the licence and other people would bring the radios back into the work place because they could afford it!!

 

Cheers

 

Jerry

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...

Hi Jerry, I work for a company that seems to have been built off the back of people like yourself who have been hounded for PRS or PPL fees.

 

I have had to try and work out how these license fees work which is why I have dragged up this old thread. To put it mildly the PRS / PPL have created so much confusion that no one has any idea what license fees they need to pay any more. If you need help from me to try and clarify this for you, I'll try to help.

 

The general rule (that I can make out) is if you are BROADCASTING music (i.e. more than one person is listening to the music you are playing) then you have to pay both PRS and PPL.

Edited by honeybee13
Commercial references.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the site wstewpot.

 

So, can we spread that wisdom around.

 

I have music on my site - http://uknationalforums.com/forumdisplay.php?11-British-Pop-Chart-Top-10s-1952-2000 which I had intended to stream from my own equipment. After reading the respective websites, I emailed them for clarification and what fees I would be liable for. What I got back bears no resemblance to their websites at all, they seem to have deliberately not spelt it all out.

 

Not only were the fees enormous but I would be limited to the number of recordings offered and the amount of time, (30 seconds) that track could play for.

 

I would love some idea what my fees would likely be if I decided to stream the tracks myself ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Conniff,

 

I personally don't think they spell it out because they just make it up a bit as they go along. The internet is also a too new for them and streaming is a model they haven't really created any sort of pricing structure for.

 

They seem to charge you WAY less if a stream is all it is. A stream where the user does not have any say in what plays next, they cant pause, skip or repeat. My company have got around the massive fees by distributing only unlicensed music via the internet - e.g. we buy an album or a load of songs directly from the artist rather than from the record label.

 

Your music is licensed and someone collects royalties for it. Can you package all your music up into one continuous feed instead? You look like you are just linking to youtube which is ideal because you don't have to deal with any licensing stuff, however links will go bad after a while.

 

Big subscription sites like Pandora or Spotify will just pay that massive fee for the usability of being able to pause, skip etc. Smaller sites like 8 tracks.com limit you to only pressing skip a certain number of times because they haven't got the capital for one of these huge licenses.

 

What I'm pretty much saying is that there is no legal way to flexibly stream licensed music without paying the ridiculous fee.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Stewpot. My idea of laying them all out as I have was so people could click on the years they liked or remembered so can't really make it one long stream as it will totally alter the intention.

 

I know the links can go bad so will have to keep my eye on them and keep them updated.

 

When asked if everything was in order and was I ready to go ahead, I emailed back saying 'no thank you, it is all a big conn and will just link to YouTube'. They never even had the courtesy to reply.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

Hey guys, just stumbled across this thread & through fear of backlash wanted to bring it back to life and to say there are alternatives to the PRS & PPL fees. Some sites offer businesses real music that is free from PRS & PPL control, meaning your shop or salon or office etc can still have music playing but without the hefty fees.

 

You only have to have a license from the PRS & PPL if you play music/recordings that's copyright is under their administration. SO by providing a internet radio service for business that only plays music that the service controls (& is not under PRS & PPL control) the businesses no longer have to have their licenses.

 

Check it out if it's of interest to anyone here - I'm hopefully if nothing else it will give business owner an option!

Best

Edited by honeybee13
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I have just noticed the FAQs

 

Can I play my music from my favourite albums/bands etc?

 

No. The point of the service from The Business Radio is to supply you with a radio service that plays music that is not controlled by the PRS & PPL. The majority of popular and commercial music is controlled by PRS & PPL. Unfortunately if you wish to continue hearing your favourite bands music in your business you will need to have a PRS & PPL license. However all the music we provide in The Business Radio is a wide spread of quality songs, across all popular genres, from internationally recognised artists & bands.

 

Which makes this useless spam, we don't want music that no one has heard before from people no one has heard of, so unapproved - sorry.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do apologise Conniff - Just I saw that the thread was started by a business owner who was having issues with the PRS & PPL - and I assumed that by highlighting the fact that there is an alternative may be of use to forum members. Granted you won't be able to hear Radio 1 anymore - but I know a lot of businesses have music purely as a tool not as a focal point. I suppose the other issue to clarify is with businesses playing for example the radio, do they recognise every artist that is played & every song they hear - I find that highly unlikely so to say "we don't want music that no one has heard before from people no one has heard of" is very subjective and I'd suggest missing the point that most businesses struggle with the cost.

 

Anyway I of course bow to your better judgement & determination to continue to play your favourtie music in your business. I just hope that some people may find it beneficial to know there's cost saving alternatives available.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...