Bristow & sutor notice of seizure of goods

[dobiedogs]

Hello

 

My daughter returned home today to find paperwork hanging out of her letter box, from Bristow & Sutor. It was not in an envelope and it is a 'Notice of Seizure of Goods'.

 

It is apparently for unpaid Council Tax / NNDR for which they are claiming over £5,000 they have apparently got a liability order and have marked down on a memorandum of amounts due 4 lots of CT/NNDR that are outstanding.

 

The problem however is that they have levied on a vehicle that had already been sold to someone else (both parties have a receipt) about 4 days before Bristow & Sutor came to the house. There was no prior warning, and no letter from the local authority.

 

The amounts owed are disputed with the council and was being dealt with before this visit. Bristow & Sutor have also added on 3 lots of levy fees.

 

Nothing has been signed by my daughter or her partner and the bailiff has not entered the property, my daughter who is severely disabled and on benefits is absolutely terrified because the car had already been sold and they were waiting for the buyer to collect and the other item on the levy is tools that her partner uses for work.

 

They have had no verbal or physical contact with the bailiff just this paperwork pushed through the door giving them 5 days to pay up.

 

A bailiff did call at their house last year, her partner was out at the time and when my daughter answered the door (she was on walking sticks) the bailiff physically pushed her out of the way to gain entry which caused her to fall over. Luckily, her dog stopped the bailiff from entering and a neighbour called the police.

 

She is an absolute mess at the moment and I hope someone could advise as to what she can do, as she cannot afford to pay such a sum.

[outlawla]

Hi dobiedogs

 

There seems to be several issues you could be addressing here; but I think you should definitely look into the Data protection implications of their action relating to the ‘Notice of Seizure of Goods' hanging out of the letter box, especially as it was not in an envelope.

 

I should verify whether or not this is a breach of the Data Protection Act – and if it contravenes The National Standards for Enforcement Agents requirements – in leaving paperwork of a sensitive nature in the way this bailiff has done; it could clearly go missing or be intercepted by someone passing by.

 

Data Protection Act 1998, references:

 

1) A breach of the seventh data protection principle in Part I of Schedule 1

 

2) Sensitive personal data under section 2 of the Act

 

3) Section 4(4) of the Act provides that, subject to section 27(1) of the Act, it is the duty of a data controller to comply with the data protection principles in relation to all personal data in respect of which it is a data controller.

 

The National Standards for Enforcement Agents require that “Enforcement agents should, so far as it is practical, avoid disclosing the purpose of their visit to anyone other than the debtor. Where the debtor is not seen, the relevant documents must be left at the address in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.”

 

You can make a complaint to the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) but don’t expect a speedy response, if one at all.

Edited March 20, 2011 by outlawla

[fork-it]

Hello

 

My daughter returned home today to find paperwork hanging out of her letter box, from Bristow & Sutor. It was not in an envelope and it is a 'Notice of Seizure of Goods'.

 

Bailiffs leave the NoS hanging iout the letterbox so they can tell if the occupier has returned home.

 

 

It is apparently for unpaid Council Tax / NNDR for which they are claiming over £5,000 they have apparently got a liability order and have marked down on a memorandum of amounts due 4 lots of CT/NNDR that are outstanding.

 

If you did not receive a Final Notice or a Reminder then the liability and fees are not lawfully valid. Contact the council and ask they comply with the law and roll the case back to pre-liability order stage. Contact the Local Government Ombudsman. If the debt is for a Ltd company and its ceased trading then the debt dies with the company.

 

The problem however is that they have levied on a vehicle that had already been sold to someone else (both parties have a receipt) about 4 days before Bristow & Sutor came to the house.

 

That is more the bailiffs problem than yours.

 

There was no prior warning, and no letter from the local authority.

 

See above.

 

The amounts owed are disputed with the council and was being dealt with before this visit. Bristow & Sutor have also added on 3 lots of levy fees.

 

I wouldnt worry about them. They are probably not lawful anyway. The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid business rates is Regulation 3© of the Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Amendment and Miscellaneous Provision) Regulations 1993 and The Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006.

 

1st Visit £24.50

2nd Visit £18.00

 

The levy is not valid (no Final Notice/Reminder sent) so levy fee = £0.00

 

Nothing has been signed by my daughter or her partner and the bailiff has not entered the property, my daughter who is severely disabled and on benefits is absolutely terrified because the car had already been sold and they were waiting for the buyer to collect and the other item on the levy is tools that her partner uses for work.

 

Thats the bailiffs problem. Not yours.

 

They have had no verbal or physical contact with the bailiff just this paperwork pushed through the door giving them 5 days to pay up.

 

DO NOT contact the bailiff. NEVER open the door to one. Call police if you feel thratened but remember, that door remains LOCKED SHUT at all times. Speak to the council and get them to comply with the law. Start the council's Complaints procedure immediately on the grounds of 1) failure to comply with the law and 2) defrauding you with bogus bailiff (levy) fees contrary to Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

A bailiff did call at their house last year, her partner was out at the time and when my daughter answered the door (she was on walking sticks) the bailiff physically pushed her out of the way to gain entry which caused her to fall over. Luckily, her dog stopped the bailiff from entering and a neighbour called the police.

 

Not relevent, I wouldnt worry about it. You should have contacted police and made a complaint under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 as this is Common Assault. Bailiffs are not allowed to commit violence against anyone let alone a vulnerable person.

[caledfwlch]

I thought Bailiff's were not allowed to visit on a Sunday?

[outlawla]

I thought Bailiff's were not allowed to visit on a Sunday?

 

For fear of sounding pedantic, post #1 of this thread was submitted at nine minutes past midnight so technically the content could refer to today 'Sunday', however, looking at the content of the post I should imagine that it took longer than nine minutes to compose; then it was more likely yesterday that dobiedogs was referring.

[dobiedogs]

Thank you for the replies.

 

Yes it was Saturday when they called (I did write late at night) my fault so, sorry for that.

 

Fork-It - On the paperwork there is no charge for 1st / 2nd visit just levy fees. My daughter has had no letters / reminders / final notice at her current address. She has informed the council when she has changed addresses because this has been ongoing for a couple of years now. In fact the council already take money from her benefits towards one of the accounts that she still owes a small amount on.

 

She has spoke to the council and asked them to recall it back from the bailiffs but they say that they cannot do that. They know she is on benefits and that she is disabled, but they will not give her any information when she asked for it. They just say that she must deal with the bailiff.

 

The council in question is a real nightmare when you go there in person they treat you like you have committed some awful crime they also claim they haven't received forms or letters etc.My daughter thought she had finally got this sorted when the started taking money from her benefits.

 

I have told her partner to remove the vehicle that they have tried to levy on, the buyer is collecting it when he gets back from holiday.

 

Outlaw - thanks for the information about the DPA i've passed that on to my daughter and hopefully we will try that with the council.

 

Thank you again

[dobiedogs]

I forgot to add that the NNDR that is outstanding was for a business that was started and then ceased trading (not a ltd company) within a few months, L/A was informed but kept sending bills anyway.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Did you have a signed lease for the business premises?

[dobiedogs]

My daughter did have a lease/license (agricutural) for a year, she started her business, had a very bad RTA and shut the business down after 5/6 months.

[RaeUK]

Hello

 

My daughter returned home today to find paperwork hanging out of her letter box, from Bristow & Sutor. It was not in an envelope and it is a 'Notice of Seizure of Goods'. ... my daughter who is severely disabled and on benefits is absolutely terrified...

 

Hi dobie.

Please tell your daughter not to be terrified. If she is as you state then - I assume - she will be in receipt of DLA and other assorted benefits. This case should not be with the bailiff and should be taken back by the council. You / your daughter need to write to the bailiff company outlining her illness / disablity. Enclose evidence - doctors certificate, copies of relevant documentation regarding DLA etc. Copy this to the Head of Revenues at your local council. Send both by signed for. You can also email stating hard copy to follow. Google and quote from the National Standards for Enforcement Agents. Both your council and the bailiff company have agreed to abide by this...

[she clearly falls into the Vulnerable category]

Best wishes

Rae.

Edited March 21, 2011 by RaeUK
typoo

[dobiedogs]

Hi Kelcou,

Thanks for that, Yes she is on DLA highest rate for both care and mobility, she is also under the adult social services as she is severely disabled.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Hopefully Kelcou is right (hello kelcou) and they will take this account back.

 

Whatever method of collection / enforcement they use, you will probably find that she does technically owe the rates for the period the lease was in force.

The task in hand would be to check if they can be reduced; i.e.was a discount available? was it applied for?; and / or appeal to their (ahem) better nature and ask about discretionary relief given the circumstances.

 

Did you have to see out the full term of the lease?

[RaeUK]

Hi Kelcou,

Thanks for that, Yes she is on DLA highest rate for both care and mobility, she is also under the adult social services as she is severely disabled.

 

Dobie, why am I not surprised? She clearly falls within the vulnerable category. Include, in your supporting evidence, info about social services. This should be an open and shut case. However, don't be surprised if the bailiff tries it on or the council have a memory lapse. You can also make an official complaint to the council CEO who has overall responsibility. I'm just easing myself back into CAG after a bit of a hiatus. If you need pointers regarding what to write or would like me to supply you with a letter I am happy to do so but not before tomorrow night. TBH I wouldn't even worry too much about the bailiffs gaining access and levying because they will ultimately fail. But that's just my view. I know this is a worrying time for your daughter but she is in a far stronger position then she currently realises.

Best wishes

Rae.

 

Hi Mr Pimpernel, it's been a while ...

[dobiedogs]

Greenpimpernel, yes she saw the full term out and there was no problem with that, the place was just left empty as the rent had been paid up for the year. She informed the council that she had closed the business and that it was empty but that didn't stop the council from sending her rate bills for 3 years after she had left the property!

 

Kelcou can you or anybody confirm that it is ok to write to the bailiff as you suggested because I have read on here that you shouldn't have any contact with them.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

I will have to look into the NNDR status for the period where the building was unoccupied / used yet the lease was in force and the rent paid; but THREE years?????

 

Are you saying they charged her for two years in addition to the year of the lease?

[RaeUK]

Dobie, in your daughters circumstances this is the right course of action. How else can the bailiff be notified - in writing - and be provided proof of her condition? Most bailiff companies have people designated to handle these cases however, as you can imagine, they get inundated with requests and a percentage of which will be bogus. Hence providing medical evidence. The important thing is the paper trail and keeping copies of what you have sent. If the bailiff or the council play hard to get - and they've been known to - you are then simply gathering your ammunition for a Formal Complaint to the council CEO and on to your MP etc. Those who recall my posts and advice will know I have done this many times before for Caggers...

Best wishes

Rae

 

NOTE: You have several things to deal with rolled into one. I am only advising on the Council Tax ...

Edited March 21, 2011 by RaeUK
edit

[RaeUK]

Here is the link to the relevant page of the National Standards. How many boxes does your daughter tick?

 

here

 

Bristow & Sutor are accredited to the Enforcement Services Association whose Code of Conduct [section 2] states:

 

2. Members should comply with the provisions of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents.

 

No matter what the bailiff says on the door this is undeniable proof of what SHOULD be happening ...

 

Best wishes

Rae.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

"I am only advising on the Council Tax ..."

 

The guidelines you are quoting should apply to NNDR as-well. When collecting NNDR the bailiff is acting in the same capacity as for council tax, i.e. a private certified bailiff enforcing a liability order.

[RaeUK]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification Mr Pimpernel.

Rae.

Edited March 21, 2011 by RaeUK
since when did my ability to spell correctly desert me???

[ploddertom]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification Mr Pimpernel.

Rae.

 

Hi Rae

 

Pleased to see you, I think we've all missed your input with letters etc.

 

PT

[dobiedogs]

I will have to look into the NNDR status for the period where the building was unoccupied / used yet the lease was in force and the rent paid; but THREE years?????

 

Are you saying they charged her for two years in addition to the year of the lease?

 

Yes they did, even though she had moved out and had proof that she had moved out. It took months for them to acknowledge that she wasn't there. Even then they still didn't get the dates right claiming she didn't move until November when she had moved at the start of September.

[dobiedogs]

Thank you everyone,

 

kelcou - I looked at your link and my daughter ticks 3 of the boxes.

I have emailed B& S and have told them about her disability and that I was also putting copies in the post with the various medical reports and other evidence and kept copies of everything. I have also asked them to return the accounts back to the council as per their code of conduct on vunerable situations.

 

Next stop is the council, I have informed them that my daughter and her partner had not received any final notice/ reminders etc at her current address and have asked them to take the accounts back off the bailiff. They have flatly refused to do that with an added "I don't care whether she's [my daughter] on benefits or not this has got to be paid".

 

I have also asked for a copy of all the CT/NNDR demands for the period in question and date that the liability order was obtained. For some strange reason they wouldn't tell me this on the 'phone.

 

My daughter and her partner have now given me written consent to deal with this on their behalf as the council were very rude to my daughter when she gave them permission to deal with me today, so a complaint will be going in tomorrow.

 

Any ideas who is the best person to deal with re a complaint.

[brassnecked]

Thank you everyone,

 

kelcou - I looked at your link and my daughter ticks 3 of the boxes.

I have emailed B& S and have told them about her disability and that I was also putting copies in the post with the various medical reports and other evidence and kept copies of everything. I have also asked them to return the accounts back to the council as per their code of conduct on vunerable situations.

 

Next stop is the council, I have informed them that my daughter and her partner had not received any final notice/ reminders etc at her current address and have asked them to take the accounts back off the bailiff. They have flatly refused to do that with an added "I don't care whether she's [my daughter] on benefits or not this has got to be paid".

 

I have also asked for a copy of all the CT/NNDR demands for the period in question and date that the liability order was obtained. For some strange reason they wouldn't tell me this on the 'phone.

 

My daughter and her partner have now given me written consent to deal with this on their behalf as the council were very rude to my daughter when she gave them permission to deal with me today, so a complaint will be going in tomorrow.

 

Any ideas who is the best person to deal with re a complaint.

 

The CEO, and Leader of the council, copied to her local councillor and MP point out that the Council is vicariously liable both joint and severally for the actions and any breaches, of legislation by their agents "The Bailiffs" as they would be for any employee, and also escalate to the Ombudsman, as if they have messed up and gained a Liability Order for monies not owed they are in the doo doo big time.

 

They are likely being evasive as to provide you with the information you require may well drop them right in it if they have charged for periods where she was not liable for what they are chasing.

[ploddertom]

Part of the problem you may be facing is that you may not actually be dealing with the Council. A lot of local authorities have "sold" their back office administration duties to private companies. This means that you may even be dealing with just a call centre when you ring. One of the more well known of these companies is called Capita who in turn own 2 Bailiff companies although B & S is not one of them. The only sure fire way of dealing with this is to go over the heads of those who have their snouts in the trough at the bottom - 9 times out of 10 they are reading from a script and are not allowed to deviate.

 

May be you should start with the Head of Revenues or alternatively if you file a Formal Complaint it should be marked as such and go to the Council CEO. Another way forward is to gain the help of the local Councillor(s) who do have access to those in charge, if they refuse or are reluctant go over their head to the Leader of the Council or his/her opposite number. If these avenues fail then you must complain to the LGO.

 

PT

[Thegreenpimpernel]

The best target for complaints would be the Head of Revenues (or equivalent title). When he gives you the brush off the next step will be the Chief exec, then the ombudsman.

 

How much evidence have you got that she moved out?

 

Does / would the ex-landlord confirm your story in writing?