guilty or not guilty plea / private prosecution = no show on a CRB check?

[markyra21]

hi there any advice from anyone would be great.

 

to cut a long story short i was caught after going through a ticket barrier without a ticket.

 

my PAYG oyster had credit on it but i hadnt tapped in correctly so trying to avoidthe £6 charge i followed someone through the gates - stupid i know.

 

well - ever since i received my letter asking for my side of the story i have been in dialogue (email) with the prosecutions office offering to settle out of court - but no mater how many times i ask - they say they wont and that their is no other way for 'disposal' than a court summons.

 

i am now awaiting this in the post.

 

is therre any chance of me avoiding court and the criminal record? this is my first offence, i answered questions honestly, gave correct details etc.

 

endless begging letters haven't worked is there any hope?

[rebel11]

Hi Mark

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

[SRPO]

Settling out of court is entirely up to the prosecution, if they say no then you have no option but to answer the summons.

What you should do at court is make it very clear that you have tried repeatedly to make amends but they refused your offer.

[Old-CodJA]

SRPO is right, the decision as to whether or not any case can be settled without Court action is entirely up to the prosecution. they are never obliged to allow it.

 

Having read your post I am sorry to say that I don't offer much hope of a settlement, though you may well do as suggested at Court

 

The fact that having failed to tap-in (pay your fare) before travelling, you compounded that by showing intent not to pay, by 'double-shuffling' through the barrier behind someone else.

 

Although you may have had credit on the Pay-as-you-go Oyster, that isn't evidence that you had paid your fare. It's the same as taking your bank card to a booking office. Until you tap in, the credit has not been given up and the fare has not been paid.

 

The 'double-shuffle' makes it really easy for the prosecutor to prove intent to avoid payment.

 

'He did not tap-in to pay his fare your Worships, and on completion of his journey, he followed close behind another traveller who had used a valid ticket to open the barrier gate, thereby exiting the ticket barrier intending to leave the station without having paid for his journey'

[markyra21]

thanks,

 

will the phone number on the court summons direct me to the same person i have been in correspondance with at the prosecuions office.

 

i am hoping that once the summons comes i will be able to speak to somone else to try and settle outside court as hopefully they will be more forgiving?

[Old-CodJA]

It will be the staff at the prosecutions office who will have prepared the Summons.

 

It will be the same office, though it is theoretically possible that you may get to speak to someone else

[Wriggler7]

The points about 'who gets to choose' have been beaten to death already.

 

Let us assume that you ring the number on the summons, and get to chat with 'someone else' in the office.

 

For this case to have got to this point, a lot of administrative efort has gone into it. A lot of sheets of paper have been printed, and it is not only 'railway staff' that have been 'working' on the matter, but also Court staff.

 

There is virtually no advantage for the railway to withdraw the case, and the railway prosecutor my find himself being moaned at next time he talks to the 'admin wallahs' at the Court, who have recorded the case, sewnt the papers around to the Court and so on.

 

If a potential defendant wants to 'settle' a case, they need to make the suggestion as soon as possible, and as easy as possible.

 

My advice remains, get your ticket before travel, carry it with you, use it to exit the station in the correct manner.

[markyra21]

thank you all,

 

so on the assumption i am gonig to court. would people recommend a guilty or not guilty plea?

 

obviously it would seem i dont have a leg to stand on but have i anything to lose by pleading not guilty on the basis their was no intent from the outset but instead a moment of panic upon realising my oyster had not been tapped in correctly?

 

if found guilty do you definitely get a criminal record or can a judge pass other punishments such as a bind over or jsut a fine iwithout the record etc?

[Old-CodJA]

If you attend court and say sorry, pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity, you will get the maximum credit from the Magistrates.

 

You can also write and ask the Court to deal with the case in your absence if you are pleading guilty to the charge.

 

If you plead 'not guilty' the case will be adjourned to a later date, when you will have to attend so that a trial can take place and the rail company will bring their witness/es to court to give evidence.

 

If the Case goes to trial because you plead 'not guilty', but you are found guilty by the Magistrates, you may lose any credit that an early guilty plea would have attracted.

 

YOU SHOULD NOT PLEAD GUILTY JUST TO DISPOSE OF A CASE QUICKLY IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE COMMITTED ANY OFFENCE.

 

.

[Wriggler7]

The other thing not mentioned so far is if you plead not guilty, and the case goes to trial, after you have been found guilty, and I can see no other outcome, the railway will increase their cost claim to cover the expense of bringing their witness.

[markyra21]

Hi there - i got my court summons through this morning.

 

in essence i was caught following someone else through an underground barrier. although there was no intent to do this from the outset of my journey (prior to travelling, i checked my balance on my oyster - £8.50 - and instead of putting it back in my wallet, i put it in my pocket - as such i placed a now redundant wallet without oyster on the yellow pad as i walked through the luggage gate. upon realsing i panicked and made a mistake)

 

my question is whether to plead guilty or not guilty?

 

i have asked to settle out of court many times but to avail - i also rang the prosecutions office thismorning to beg - but again to no avail.

 

is it true you can ask to see somone at the court on the day before your hearing and try to avoid court proceedings?

 

also the person at the prosecutions office said it was a private prosecution and that no detials were passed on any third parties and as such wouldnt be recorded on he CRB database?

 

any advice would be great

 

 

thanks

[rebel11]

This thread has been merged, you don't need to start a new thread, it doesn't help the people who advise you.

[Wriggler7]

Several issues.

 

Does it go on CRB? Possibly yes, possibly no. There is a slow process going on which will, eventually, require all 'non public' prosecutions for recordable offences to be entered onto the criminal record. I am not sure which railways are already in this system, and which ones are not, I do know that c2c Rail is. (Heard all of the moans about the extra administration)

 

Can you see the prosecutor at Court? Yes. If it is 'the railway' that are prosecuting the case, their prosecutor will be there, normally half an hour before court starts. (Some organisations use an 'agent' to prosecute, who will not be able to negotiate, only follow instructions, c2c, NXEA, LUL and others use their own staff, who have some authority to negotiate with defendants on the day, although it is rather late in the process.)

 

Plead guilty or not guilty? Not going to advise on that one without seeing all the evidence. Without a candid chat with the prosecutor, it would simply be wrong to send you up one road or the other. But: 'guilty pleas at first opportunity' attract a reduction in fines, typically a third of what the Court were intending to do. If you plead not guilty, the prosecution are likely to have the case adjourned for trial at a later date, when they would bring their witness. No discount for early guilty plea, increased costs claim because the witness attended. Possibility that the Court will find you 'not guilty', and therefore, no fine, no costs! Hopefully, you will see why I am reluctant to 'advise'. You wouldn't give a racing tip without counting the horses legs.

[Old-CodJA]

also the person at the prosecutions office said it was a private prosecution and that no detials were passed on any third parties and as such wouldnt be recorded on he CRB database?

 

I just singled out that bit because it is completely wrong.

 

Wriggler7 has explained the slow process of getting everybody to follow recommendadtions made by Bichard, but to simply say that in effect 'because it is a private prosecution it would not appear on any record' is utterly wrong.

[SRPO]

I just singled out that bit because it is completely wrong.

 

Wriggler7 has explained the slow process of getting everybody to follow recommendadtions made by Bichard, but to simply say that in effect 'because it is a private prosecution it would not appear on any record' is utterly wrong.

 

 

I think that statement relates to if there is an out of court settlement rather than if the prosecution proceeds.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, could be a misinterpretation, but as written it suggests otherwise.

 

If settled = no record

[markyra21]

hi all, thanks for your advice - it is much appreciated.

 

i think the best thing for me to do is pleasd guilty and ask for an absolute discharge.

 

could i ask how this is done and also how you get to speak to the prosecutor prior to your case being heard on the day of the case for one final beg?

 

thanks

[Wriggler7]

How to ask for a discharge? Well now, that is a question.

 

Courts can give absolute or conditional discharges to cases, but in truth, I have never heard a defendant ask for one. I have heard counsel suggest one on behalf of a client.

 

Most of the Courts I go to would see 'asking for a discharge' as just a touch cheeky, and it is anyone's guess how they would react. However, it starts with accepting guilt of the offence, by pleading guilty.

 

There would need to be a clear demonstration of remorse, and a clear statement that the defendant will never 'do it again'. There would need to be mention of 'previous good character', and talk of the shame that a conviction brings. I would suggest that to 'ask for' a discharge, it would be best if you were represented, but you could try 'rambling' and tell the Court that you are terrified of what they could do to you, you have heard that you could go to prison, or that you could be fined harshly, and someone else had told you that it wouldn't come to that, some Courts might even give a discharge.

 

I know how a lot of 'friends' would approach the subject, but a difficult issue to advise in a public forum.

 

Bear in mind that I have heard some of the 'best' counsel talk about absolute discharges, only for the Bench to answer with a fairly blunt explanation of why they think that the offence deserves a firm punishment. Nothing is certain until the Bench announce sentence.

[markyra21]

Thanks that is really useful, in the event that maybe you were able to detail how one of your friends would ask for a discharge, then if you could send that info to EDITED that would be fantastic.

 

As always this info is invaluable and much appreciated

 

Thanks

Edited February 22, 2011 by silverfox1961
removed personal information

[Wriggler7]

The way that my friends would 'do this' starts with them telling you what their hourly charges are.

 

Counsel would talk about your previous good character, the blight caused by loosing it, and would simply ask their Worships to consider the submission that the defendant could, perhaps, be entitled to the benefit of an absolute discharge.

 

There would be a certain amount of waffle, but a Court wil not in any way penalise a defendant if it is Counsel that is being a bit cheeky.

 

You will have read in other threads the consensus that the costs of a solicitor are normally greater than the potential saving to a person charged with fare dodging. And there is no absolute garauntee that asolicitor will get you the result that you want.

[fren]

Sorry I know this has been discussed many many times, but I've seen mixed answers for this so am still very confused. Sorry to waste people's time if you've heard it asked a million times.

 

I want to ask about the exact nature of the prosecution under 5.3 and prepare for the worst case scenario, since this is what a family member of mine is being summoned to court under:

 

1. Is it a recordable offence?

2. Will it affect your employment?

3. Does it have to be declared? (for example, when applying for mortgages/insurance/jobs etc. anything that requests you to state if you have a previous criminal record)

4. Is it permenant? If not, how long will it last for?

 

I have explained my situation in the London Underground thread. To cut a long story short, my dad got caught using my student photocard back in October and even though we sent a letter to explain we still got the summons almost 4 months later. If he pleads guilty, I just want to find out how harsh the terms would likely to be. Just to add, this is his first ever offence, in anything (except perhaps parking tickets), so he's very distressed about the whole thing, I've never seen him so unhappy:-(

 

Thanks in advance, any answer is very much appreciated!!

[SRPO]

yes

yes

yes

5 years

[Maxwell TM]

Sorry I know this has been discussed many many times, but I've seen mixed answers for this so am still very confused. Sorry to waste people's time if you've heard it asked a million times.

 

I want to ask about the exact nature of the prosecution under 5.3 and prepare for the worst case scenario, since this is what a family member of mine is being summoned to court under:

 

1. Is it a recordable offence?

2. Will it affect your employment?

3. Does it have to be declared? (for example, when applying for mortgages/insurance/jobs etc. anything that requests you to state if you have a previous criminal record)

 

This thread and this area of the forum are packed with useful info on these matters. Look for posts by Wriggler7 and Old- CodJA in particular. They are experts in this field

4. Is it permenant? If not, how long will it last for?

 

I have explained my situation in the London Underground thread. To cut a long story short, my dad got caught using my student photocard back in October and even though we sent a letter to explain we still got the summons almost 4 months later. If he pleads guilty, I just want to find out how harsh the terms would likely to be. Just to add, this is his first ever offence, in anything (except perhaps parking tickets), so he's very distressed about the whole thing, I've never seen him so unhappy:-(

 

Thanks in advance, any answer is very much appreciated!!

 

An expert has given you unembellished answers to your questions. My advice would be to use this info to discuss with your father how he wants to play this. Then check out the responses in this thread and this area of the boards. As pointed out in the response quoted above, there are top specialists in this field who regularly contribute, Many of the cases discussed are similar to yours and the advice given is clear and impartial. Good luck.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maxwell TM

[markyra21]

hi all, i thought i would give you an update.

 

well i had my case yesterday.

 

wore my best suit and spoke politely

 

had prepared a written statement saying what had happened, pleaded guilty and asked for a conditional discharge and was fortunate enough to get it

 

thansk everyoen for their advice

 

much appreciated

[markyra21]

hi all, i thought i would give you an update.

 

well i had my case yesterday.

 

wore my best suit and spoke politely

 

had prepared a written statement saying what had happened, pleaded guilty and asked for a conditional discharge and was fortunate enough to get it

 

thansk everyoen for their advice

 

much appreciated