High Court Enforcement Officer

[wonkeydonkey]

Has this HCEO actually levied on any goods...has he been in your home and written down the goods he intends to remove? has he given you a notice of seizure listing the goods he intends to remove? very important questions and asked for good reason.

[hawkins1]

No he hasnt gained entry to our home. The day he turned up there was nobody in anyway and he hasnt been back since, probably because we made a proposal of payment to the sheriff. They have given us until 8th March 2011 to pay the money otherwise enforcement will continue so we are expecting the bailiff to call again after next Tuesday. What we want to know about is the car. I didnt think they could touch a car on HP but National Debtline said that High Court Bailiffs can. If necessary we will try and keep it out of the way.

[wonkeydonkey]

I am not 100% on this but I do remember reading a post where the same question was raised. If I am right the only way they can take the car is if the "owners" (Welcome the finance company) agree to it.....and they only do that if you are in serious arrears with the payments and the contract has little time to run.

HCEO ...no entry = no levy. he can get musical and whistle dixie

[hawkins1]

Thank you. I like your style. We are in arrears but Welcome have agreed to this. We pay £100 per less every month. They havent got a very good name, but to date we have found them very helpful and the last statement we had from them which was sometime last year, we still owed them over £8000. Obviously getting the car from them was very expensive but we had no choice. Hope it wont come to the bailiff trying to seize it. Just have to wait now until we get a Hearing to see if we can get a Stay of Execution. Apparently the judge could refuse it. Dont know what happens then though.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

They can't touch the car on HP.

 

I believe the concept of taking the vehicle with the consent of the finance company relates to cars on secured finance / secured loans, i.e where the car is security against the loan.

If a car is on finance, say a car worth £20,000 with only £3,000 remaining. The bailiff could in theory seize the car, and pay the finance company the £3000+ settlement fee, then lawfully sell the car.

 

When the car is on HP, the hint is in the name. The provider of the car has a contract to 'hire' you a car for the duration of the contract for the fee you agreed. They have no option to unilaterally withdraw from the contract at the behest of a bailiff / creditor.

 

Hence they cannot touch it.

 

HP & Finance are different, and many people are not aware they are actually on HP when they buy a car on 'finance' from a dealer.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Thegreenpimpernel

[hawkins1]

Many thanks. It is Hire Purchase so they wont be able to touch it which is a relief. Just need to wait for the Hearing now and keep everything crossed that the Judge accepts our offer of payment. The creditors representative wants his pound of flesh and has been threatening High Court Sheriffs, Attachment of Earnings and Bankruptcy for some months. I have a feeling that he is a personal friend of our previous landlord, who we owe money to, as upon looking at his website, he deals normally with obtaining money from businesses.

[wonkeydonkey]

Thanks GP Knew it was there somewhere but having a silver haired day, I have spent an age searching for the old post but no luck...thanks again

[debbbbsy]

who pushed a Walking Possession Agreement through our letter box.

 

For the seizure to have been served properly, they must gain peaceful entry, actually see & list the items to be included on the Notice of Seizure. The HCEO will then produce 2 copies of the WPO, you sign both & keep a copy. This is your agreement to not remove or sell the items listed. They cannot look through a window & make a list, they cannot make a general list based on what they assume you have.

You can report the HCEO to the courts for failing to follow the correct/lawful procedures ( an "Irregular Levy ), and make an application to the magistrates court to have the Levy revoked.

 

What is a walking possession agreement?

A walking possession agreement means that the goods that have been seized now legally belong to the bailiff and can be removed at any time. However, s/he will allow them to remain in your home and you can continue to use them providing you keep your side of the agreement, e.g. you make agreed payments.

In order for a walking possession order to be valid, a bailiff should have gained peaceful entry to the property and seized the goods. It is not enough for a bailiff to list items that they have seen through a window and push a walking possession order through the letterbox for you to sign and return. You should never sign a walking possession order in these circumstances. There is a daily charge for a walking possession order that you must pay, on top of the original debt you owe if they are sold. Remember that goods will be sold at public auction and typically will sell for about 10% of their original value. This means that if you owe £50, a bailiff will probably try to seize goods to the value of at least £500.

A bailiff must only seize goods that belong to the person who owes the money, although any goods in the house can be seized for distress or rent. In practice, many bailiffs will attempt to seize any goods of value at a house they visit - it will be up to the individual to prove ownership afterwards. If you have receipts showing someone else bought the goods then you should show the bailiff these.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20071001175105/dca.gov.uk/enforcement/beatson.pdf

 

You also state that you have no assets of any value.

 

Where it appears that there are insufficient distrainable goods on the

premises to cover the expenses and 10% of the debt or £50, whichever

is the lesser, the goods should not be sold.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

debbbdsy

 

He can push a seizure notice through your door for the car, or he could just stick it on the windscreen, but you are right in the respect that this does not constitute a 'Walking possession agreement' so no fee of that category should apply.

 

I'm intrigued how this will work when the Courts and Tribunal act comes into force (next year?). It doesn't seem to allow for this in-between status of sticking a notice to something / through your door; only to remove them, stay with them or enter an agreement with the debtor.

 

I wonder if any bailiffs have an opinion on this. It seems in future that if a debtor refuses to sign a WPA (equivalent) then the bailiff faces the choice of removing the shabby secondhand sofa & TV on the spot; or buggering off empty handed?

[wonkeydonkey]

"It seems in future that if a debtor refuses to sign a WPA (equivalent) then the bailiff faces the choice of removing the shabby secondhand sofa & TV on the spot; or buggering off empty handed?"

 

Which means they must arrive in a vehicle suitable to carry out the on the spot removal, why do I get a mental picture of the streets becoming full of "horse & carts" this being an alternative to the nippy about town moped some of them use?

[brassnecked]

"It seems in future that if a debtor refuses to sign a WPA (equivalent) then the bailiff faces the choice of removing the shabby secondhand sofa & TV on the spot; or buggering off empty handed?"

 

Which means they must arrive in a vehicle suitable to carry out the on the spot removal, why do I get a mental picture of the streets becoming full of "horse & carts" this being an alternative to the nippy about town moped some of them use?

 

They will probably start using 7.5 tonne box vans to visit, and do multiple siezures, then charge a van fee of £300 or more to cover it, this new law needs a serious look and some legal reasoning applied to some what ifs imho As in most cases the levy will never satisfy the debt and fees etc, what is the governments reasoning with this new bill?

[Thegreenpimpernel]

I hope I've interpreted it right, because it should prove interesting regarding "attending to remove" fees. The bailiff will be in a dilema.

 

Either:

 

a) Go everywhere in a 'removal vehicle', in which case lets see them justify £120 - £300 per visit (£1000 / day to run a van reasonable????)

 

b) Turn up without a van. In which case they face the prospect of being invited into a home, the debtor refusing to sign, and then having to leave empty handed - no warrant of control (levy) in place, no right of re-entry!

[brassnecked]

I hope I've interpreted it right, because it should prove interesting regarding "attending to remove" fees. The bailiff will be in a dilema.

 

Either:

 

a) Go everywhere in a 'removal vehicle', in which case lets see them justify £120 - £300 per visit (£1000 / day to run a van reasonable????)

 

b) Turn up without a van. In which case they face the prospect of being invited into a home, the debtor refusing to sign, and then having to leave empty handed - no warrant of control (levy) in place, no right of re-entry!

 

GP the fuel costs on a 7.5t box could be around £50 per day, and they would need a transport manager with a CPC and hold an Operators licence, plus any bailiff who passed their driving test after 1997, would also have to get a HGV licence to drive them. Likely they will use Transit lutons, and still up fees to £200 plus

[Thegreenpimpernel]

All true brassnecked,

 

But we know they don't want the sofa your dog was sick on last week!

 

I can see some fun coming.

[brassnecked]

All true brassnecked,

 

But we know they don't want the sofa your dog was sick on last week!

 

I can see some fun coming.

 

Very True GP, it's the money they want, as much as possible whether they are entitled to it or not

[wonkeydonkey]

All true brassnecked,

 

But we know they don't want the sofa your dog was sick on last week!

 

I can see some fun coming.

 

Me to ....the sofa the dog threw up on....the telly thats not working....the broken plant pots and knackered deck chair...the heap of rust debtor can't afford to have removed for scrap............OMG the bailiff won't have time to call on debtors ............he will be to busy trying to find somewhere to store all his junk (even auction houses have standards) then he will either pay to have it removed or spend hours back and forth to the"dump"

[brassnecked]

Me to ....the sofa the dog threw up on....the telly thats not working....the broken plant pots and knackered deck chair...the heap of rust debtor can't afford to have removed for scrap............OMG the bailiff won't have time to call on debtors ............he will be to busy trying to find somewhere to store all his junk (even auction houses have standards) then he will either pay to have it removed or spend hours back and forth to the"dump"

just a thought, whilst all those "goods" are in his van, he is liable for any damage to them is he not? There may be a most unhappy band of bailiffs and HCEOS next year then.

[ploddertom]

................... or spend hours back and forth to the"dump"

 

But he can only do this if he has the appropriate Waste licence! Otherwise he can end up in deep doodoos get fined at Court, not pay because he used an old address & the Bailiff turns up after data cleansing the Warrant. Vicious circle anyone.

 

PT

[hawkins1]

The HCEO did not gain entry to our property as nobody was in at the time and since we have applied for a Stay of Execution, he hasnt been back. I sent a copy of the application for the Stay to the Sheriffs Office where the HCEO came from. Fingers crossed we wont have any more visits while we are awaiting a Hearing date. As we live in an upstairs flat, the HCEO would have to bring ladders with him to be able to see in our rooms. I know they are only doing their jobs and it is our creditor who requested this action. It was also our creditor who asked for the car to be taken off us because the HCEO told my husband that on the telephone. Our creditor has an agent dealing with this on his behalf and he told us all along that he was going to take it to the High Court and instruct High Court Sheriffs, or get an Attachment of Earnings or make us Bankrupt. We made an offer through the County Court which he basically refused and putting an amount £200 instead of the £50 per month we offered. The County Court requested the forms we completed and sent to him to be sent by him to the Court but the claimant did not comply so it was Set Aside. Then he took it to the High Court, which as I have already said, was what he set out to do. He knows about all our finances and about our car being on HP but yet he still continues with this present action. I dont know what he is hoping to get out of it. If we are bankrupt, he wont get a penny. An Attachment of Earnings wont bring him that much because we still have to live and Enforcement is not going to work because we have nothing of any value, even if he managed to get into the house, which he wont unless he breaks in, which he isnt allowed to do. Just have to wait for the Hearing now.

[wonkeydonkey]

Hi Hawkins

 

I would say you are on the ball sending him a copy of your application. It can work two ways...they admit defeat at being able to carry out enforcement and move swiftly on to their nexr victim..or...they take it as a personal challenge to cause you as much stress as possible.

 

From reading your posts you seem to have everything under control and all I can say is well done, I reiterate the advice given and offer the suggestion you stay on your guard until the hearing brings about a result..........have been known to sneak in a back door when the householder goes to put the wheelie bin out..I kid you not!!!

 

You certainly have a vexatious claimant but lets hope he gets the message..he can't have what you aint got.

 

Good Luck to you and remember if you need help you have it here on Cag day and night and it's free.

 

WD

[debbbbsy]

He can push a seizure notice through your door for the car

 

The WPA is your agreement that you have been served the seizure notice and the bailiff/HCEO has followed the correct procedures, you agree not to remove or sell those items detailed in the WPA. If you have not signed or agreed to the WPA, then it is an "Irregular Seizure", and can be challenged.

 

MRS AMBROSE v NOTTINHGAM CITY COUNCIL

[Thegreenpimpernel]

The WPA is your agreement that you have been served the seizure notice and the bailiff/HCEO has followed the correct procedures, you agree not to remove or sell those items detailed in the WPA. If you have not signed or agreed to the WPA, then it is an "Irregular Seizure", and can be challenged.

 

MRS AMBROSE v NOTTINHGAM CITY COUNCIL

 

 

I hope and wish it were so, but i believe there are precedents to the contrary; though I can't quote them, it is some time since I read about it.

 

Obviously i would very much like you to win this debate, it would invalidate every 'note through the door car seizure', the only levy present in most cases.

[hawkins1]

Hi wonkeydonkey

 

Many thanks for that. I know what you mean about bailiffs trying to sneak in and I am on the ball there too. As I said earlier we live in an upstairs flat which is a house conversion. Our door is at the front and consists of a porch door, then our door. The downstairs flats entrance door is round the back, which used to be the original back door to the property. The main front door is always unlocked as that is where both flats post goes to so downstairs need to have access to that, although at the moment, the downstairs flat is empty. In fact when the HCEO called, he thought we had done a bunk as he could see empty rooms. To get round to our wheelie bins and washing line, we come out of the front door and through a gate to the back of the house where we have a separate bit of garden to the downstairs flat. I never leave our door unlocked now even to go to the bin. I wont take any chances and before I come back round to go back inside, I peer round the side gate to make sure nobody is hanging around. We are like fugitives. I suspect the claimant has had a drive round and seen where we live and as they are big semi detached houses with driveways, he probably thinks we really do have money. He will, however, know now that we actually live in the upstairs part. I am very jumpy though if I hear a car as we live in a cul de sac so cars only really come up for access.

 

I have found everyone a great help on this forum and National Debtlines advice has been invaluable. Its not a nice situation to be in even though it is our fault entirely. We want to get this sorted out but we also need to live. I just hope that at the Hearing, our offer is accepted with a view to increasing it at a later date.

[hawkins1]

Further to my messages about HCEO, we received a letter from the Sheriffs to inform us that the claimant has accepted our proposal of payment. However, National Debtline told us we needed to contact the court again to see if there is going to be a Hearing about the Stay of Execution. Sheriffs office said that it is up to claimant to inform the court that an agreement has been reached. Does anyone know what happens now. Also, as these payments are going via the Sheriffs office, can the claimant take us to court at a later date to examine our financial circumstances or does the amount we have agreed upon now stick until the debt is paid.

[ploddertom]

Further to my messages about HCEO, we received a letter from the Sheriffs to inform us that the claimant has accepted our proposal of payment. However, National Debtline told us we needed to contact the court again to see if there is going to be a Hearing about the Stay of Execution. Sheriffs office said that it is up to claimant to inform the court that an agreement has been reached. Does anyone know what happens now. Also, as these payments are going via the Sheriffs office, can the claimant take us to court at a later date to examine our financial circumstances or does the amount we have agreed upon now stick until the debt is paid.

 

In my view you should think about doing the following:

1 - still go ahead with the application for the Stay - on the grounds of being unable to afford their fees, determination of a Variation Order

2 - go ahead with a Variation Order - this way you can then pay your Creditor direct - please be aware that any failure to pay will result in the above Stay being lifted and enforcement continuing

 

If you continue to pay as they are now suggesting you will be paying way over the odds as the HCEO will take fees out of every payment you make.

 

PT