recovering money for overpayment.

[bizzi_bodi]

I wonder whether someone can help me.

 

About months ago i reduced my hours at work from full time to 30 hours per week due to ill health. At the time my manager confirmed that he would put the change of hours through. A few months later my wages didnt look right so i contacted hr to say that my wages didint look right and i think i am being overpaid. I was advised it was all correct and i am being paid correctly.

It has now transpired that the change of hours was not put through properly and half the systems were corrected and the other half were not and have to repay overpayment.

I have given the company my incme expendiure and told them what i could afford to pay back however they have made me agree to an amount way over my means and i dont thnk i will be able to repay however i was told f i didnt make a decison wouldn get paid.

I was told this month only my overpaid tax and national insurance woul go out and i would start repaying from next month, however i have now realised that they have started taken payments out my wages aswell without advising me. Can the company do this?

[teaboy2]

Yes a company is entitled to reclaim overpayments in wages, there is no fixed rule about the rate of recovery and whether this should be in one lump sum or over a period of months. However, there is a general rule that an employer must not act in such a way as to undermine the employment relationship or to breach trust and confidence. In the light of this general duty, the best advice for an employer is to discuss the overpayment with the employee and propose repayment over a reasonable period of time depending upon the size of overpayment and the period over which it occurred.

 

Basically what they take in repayments must be reasonable and not leave you suffering finanical hardship. i would speak to your employer and state that the deductions they are making is leaving you in financial hardship and as such undermines the employment relationship. Inform them of how much you are willing to repay (make a reasonable monthly/weekly amount offer of repayment), and inform them that if they refuse then they will be in breach of trust and confidence and as such are acting unreasonably. State that you will as a result seek advise from The Union or ACAS, point out to the employer that as it was the fault of the employer and that you had pointed out the error only to be told that the amount you were paid was correct then it s the employers fault that the ovrpayment accured and current deductions have left you at a significant finanical disadvantage.

 

Nw the second issue here, is you say they made you agree to repay more then you can afford. So, the question is how did they make you agree to such high rates of repayment? did they threaten you with anything by any chance?

 

Do you have a union rep?

 

If not then contact ACAS here for informal advice, HERE

 

NOTE ALL REPAYMENTS MUST BE AGREED TO BY THE EMPLOYEE PRIOR TO DEDUCTIONS BEING MADE.

[alistair.long]

Hi

As the error was not yours and you didn't defraud them, it is therefore their mistake. It is therefore your choice if you want to pay them back and it cannot affect your employment within the company as that will be a diffrent issue (if you have been at the company for more then 1 year you have legal rights).

It is nice to pay them back but remember it is your choice as its their mistake.

 

They can not forcefully deduct your wages as that is "unlawful deductions of wages". By forcefully I mean they put in place a measure to reclaim their mistake, without you agreeing to it.

Also if you have already been taxed for the incorrect amount (overpayment), so the taxman is happy.

 

Firstly 7 days for any cooling off period. But I assume its been longer so if they are doing something illegal then its their fault.

 

Putting you in a position were you wont get paid unless you agree is similar to "positional bargaining". it is also applied in cases were I give a quote but then when doing the job I need more, the extra is recoverable in court.

If I was you I would ask a friend or collegue if they are with a union, or if you are already with 1 to call them and ask them for their opinion.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Don't act on my advise as its just a guide, see the unions

[elpulpo]

hi

as the error was not yours and you didn't defraud them, it is therefore their mistake. It is therefore your choice if you want to pay them back and it cannot affect your employment within the company as that will be a diffrent issue (if you have been at the company for more then 1 year you have legal rights).

It is nice to pay them back but remember it is your choice as its their mistake.

 

They can not forcefully deduct your wages as that is "unlawful deductions of wages". By forcefully i mean they put in place a measure to reclaim their mistake, without you agreeing to it.

Also if you have already been taxed for the incorrect amount (overpayment), so the taxman is happy.

 

Firstly 7 days for any cooling off period. But i assume its been longer so if they are doing something illegal then its their fault.

 

Putting you in a position were you wont get paid unless you agree is similar to "positional bargaining". It is also applied in cases were i give a quote but then when doing the job i need more, the extra is recoverable in court.

If i was you i would ask a friend or collegue if they are with a union, or if you are already with 1 to call them and ask them for their opinion.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Don't act on my advise as its just a guide, see the unions

nah

[elpulpo]

yes a company is entitled to reclaim overpayments in wages, there is no fixed rule about the rate of recovery and whether this should be in one lump sum or over a period of months. However, there is a general rule that an employer must not act in such a way as to undermine the employment relationship or to breach trust and confidence. In the light of this general duty, the best advice for an employer is to discuss the overpayment with the employee and propose repayment over a reasonable period of time depending upon the size of overpayment and the period over which it occurred.

 

Basically what they take in repayments must be reasonable and not leave you suffering finanical hardship. I would speak to your employer and state that the deductions they are making is leaving you in financial hardship and as such undermines the employment relationship. Inform them of how much you are willing to repay (make a reasonable monthly/weekly amount offer of repayment), and inform them that if they refuse then they will be in breach of trust and confidence and as such are acting unreasonably. State that you will as a result seek advise from the union or acas, point out to the employer that as it was the fault of the employer and that you had pointed out the error only to be told that the amount you were paid was correct then it s the employers fault that the ovrpayment accured and current deductions have left you at a significant finanical disadvantage.

 

Nw the second issue here, is you say they made you agree to repay more then you can afford. So, the question is how did they make you agree to such high rates of repayment? Did they threaten you with anything by any chance?

 

Do you have a union rep?

 

If not then contact acas here for informal advice, here

 

note all repayments must be agreed to by the employee prior to deductions being made.nah

gfchg,jhfyl./nbkjgylfutx

[elpulpo]

y.kjl/dbn'bnjpnp :

[teaboy2]

y.kjl/dbn'bnjpnp :

 

 

I won't even ask what you been taking tonight for your meds Elpulpo lol

[alistair.long]

y.kjl/dbn'bnjpnp :

Hi how come the nah? you seem to disagree with my post and the other? or dont you?

[teaboy2]

note all repayments must be agreed to by the employee prior to deductions being made.nah

gfchg,jhfyl./nbkjgylfutx

 

I think you will find that an employer can not simply take deductions for overpayments without the consent and prior acknowledgement to the deductions from the employee.If they didnt need such consent then they'd just take it all back in one go. So its unreasonable for them to take prior to consent and by not asking the employee it is a breach of trust.

Edited February 15, 2011 by teaboy2

[postggj]

have a nose at setion of the employment rights act

 

14 Excepted deductions. E+W+S

(1)Section 13 does not apply to a deduction from a worker’s wages made by his employer where the purpose of the deduction is the reimbursement of the employer in respect of—

(a) An overpayment of wages, or

(B) An overpayment in respect of expenses incurred by the worker in carrying out his employment,

 

 

an employer can take back an overpayment just like the employer will have to repay any under payment

 

 

its good practice to get the consent of the employee to repay over a period but they dont have to.

 

 

its good practice for you line manager to speak to you about the overpayment and decide on a repayment proposal but if the employee becomes difficult,

 

 

teaboy2 is spot on

 

 

 

THEY CAN TAKE IT BACK THROUGH FORCED DEDUCTIONS OF WAGES IF THEY WISH

[teaboy2]

have a nose at setion 13 of the employment rights act

 

 

14 Excepted deductions

. E+W+S

(1)Section 13 does not apply to a deduction from a worker’s wages made by his employer where the purpose of the deduction is the reimbursement of the employer in respect of—

(a) An overpayment of wages, or

(B) An overpayment in respect of expenses incurred by the worker in carrying out his employment,

 

 

an employer can take back an overpayment just like the employer will have to repay any under payment

 

 

its good practice to get the consent of the employee to repay over a period but they dont have to.

 

 

its good practice for you line manager to speak to you about the overpayment and decide on a repayment proposal but if the employee becomes difficult,

 

 

teaboy2 is spot on

 

 

 

THEY CAN TAKE IT BACK THROUGH FORCED DEDUCTIONS OF WAGES IF THEY WISH

 

Yep, and given they denied there was an error in the wages paid, then they are in a very tight situation as they confirmed the payments were correct. So the error is the employers and the employee was led to believe there was no error when they qeuried it, so any deductions made without consent could be reclaimed in court by the employee as unlawful deductions on the above point. So the employers safe bet would be to only reclaim the overpayments made after the date the employee was told the wages were correct and to accept a payment offer made by the employee.

 

Though i think SarEl expertise would be of benefit in clearing up any uncertainties. Either way the money is the employers and not the employees but its all about what is deemed to be reasonable action from the employer in their attempt to recover overpaid wages made as a result of their own errors especially after confirming to the employee that its was correct when queried

 

In order to show that an overpayment is not recoverable, then the employee must demonstrate three things. Firstly, it must be shown that the overpayment was the fault of the company and not the employee. Secondly, it must have been reasonable for the employee not to know that they were being overpaid (is being told by the employer that payment was correct reasonable to assume they were not being overpaid?). Thirdly, the employee must have acted to their disadvantage or the assumption that the payment of salary was correct (for example by spending the money!). The most common difficulty for employees is the second condition since it is often obvious when an overpayment has occurred. It is not acceptable for an employee to assume that they have received a substantial increase in pay unless there is some reason to believe that this is the case.

 

It would seem to me that the employer acted with negligence, by failing to adequately check accounts and ensure the wages paid were correct when the employee raised the query. Which as a result, despite the short term financial gain for the employee, they are now at a financial disadvantage after being told the wages were correct and led to believe, as such, that it was ok to spend it. Only to now be told he/she must pay it all back and therefore leaving them less money per week than what they would otherwise receive if the employer had not acted with negilgence.

Edited February 15, 2011 by teaboy2

[SarEl]

Nothing to add - everyone except alistair would be correct. The deductions are allowed, they do not have to reach an agreement on what you think you can afford, and the only rule is that no deduction should reduce your wage below the NMW rate.

[teaboy2]

Thanks SarEl, that certainly helps clear things up

[elpulpo]

I won't even ask what you been taking tonight for your meds Elpulpo lol

A random rattle of fingers on the keyboard to enable the one word addition to the quote. And cocodamol and Glenlivet.

[teaboy2]

Lol thank goodness for that, was worried you'd lost the plot or something when i first saw your posts

[bizzi_bodi]

Thank you all for your replies. I have always stated to the company that i will pay the money back that is owed, however theya re being extremely unreasonable in the amount they wish to be paid back and as result i will be caused financial hardship. I have given the company my expenditures and this clearly shows i cannot afford to repay the amount they propose however they are standing their ground. I had to agree the amountthey proposed as i was told if i did not then my pay would stop till they recovered the money. I was also advised by a hr rep to increase my hours knowing i cannot as i suffer from an illness which disables me and i have to have weekly chemotherapy which makes me extremely tired.

Thecompany is a very big company making millions in profit they are hardly going to miss a few thousands. i really dont know what to do.

[SarEl]

You should have told us this to begin with! When you say hardship, do you mean that things will be tight - or that you can't pay your bills or medicals? In which case you should submit a grievance outlining the medical grounds (try to get your doctor to support you) for lower repayments as a "reasonable adjustment". You have some moral grounds here for an adjustment - although the legal grounds are somewhat murky, so you really don't want to go there if you can avoid it. It may work.

[bizzi_bodi]

sorry i should have mentioned before. By hardship i mean i may struggle to pay the bills. My medical costs have gone up as not only is there medicine costs there is also the parking charges everytime i attend hospital which is quite frequent.Any grievance i raise goes to my line manager however he is fully aware of the situation so is his manager who is overseeing the whole thing.

[SarEl]

sorry i should have mentioned before. By hardship i mean i may struggle to pay the bills. My medical costs have gone up as not only is there medicine costs there is also the parking charges everytime i attend hospital which is quite frequent.Any grievance i raise goes to my line manager however he is fully aware of the situation so is his manager who is overseeing the whole thing.

 

Well then you have to decide whether to go over their heads. You have to either accept that you pay back the money at the rate they have said, or you have to appeal the decision and agree something different.