'Feet On Seat' offence with MerseyRail in Liverpool

[irish1990]

Im a final year student studying in Liverpool. This morning I was using the MerseyRail service and did something utterly and completely regretful and stupid that’s been bugging me all day. In an empty carriage I put my foot up on the seat - something which I always do subconsciously without thinking about on trains and buses (but after today will not think twice about it again!)

 

Anyway - I was approached by 2 'MerseyRail enforcement officers' who took my name, address, description of what I looked like and read me my rights 'you have the right to remain silent, anything you do say may be given in evidence'. The entire process lasted a good 10 minutes and said i'll be receiving a letter from MerseyRail in the post in 4-8 weeks and could be prosecuted for it.

 

Im training to be a teacher and im going back to America to complete my second summer working at Camp America with children, ive planned a year out in Australia for September 2011 and ive also got a fieldtrip coming up in China within the next 2 months - a LOT of reasons to be genuinely worried about what has happened today.

 

Stupidly, I gave him a name very similar to mine E.G Edwardo Kelly instead of Edward Kelly with my correct surname. Then I have him a proper address and postcode for a house in Ireland (but not my address or postcode). I know providing false information is a criminal offence - but at the time I was 's**ting' myself... all that I could think about was criminal record, criminal record, criminal record = not being a teacher = not going back to Camp America = not going to China = not going to Australia = a large part of my life GONE INTO SMOKE. Part of me knew that these guys were not police officers and I didnt trust them with giving them my details anyway!

 

I know the normal procedure for this 'feet on seat' offence is to issue the offender a £50 fine via post. But what will happen if that letter doesn’t get to my address or be under my correct full name? What happens if they then issue further court summons which i don’t ever receive? Ive got no idea about the entire system - and although i’ve done a stupid thing today out of the ordinary I still cant believe this is happening right now. Ive got tons of university work, teaching paths and travel plans to concentrate on - and who would have thought a simple ride on a train by myself today would have come to all this.

 

Should I get in contact with MerseyRail to give them my full correct details? I really don’t know what position im now in and to say its worrying me is an understatement.

 

Passengers that have a habit of resting a foot on the seat – BE WARNED. I’ve certainly learnt the lesson.

Edited January 27, 2011 by irish1990

[rebel11]

Hi Irish

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

[irish1990]

Cheers rebell11

[Wriggler7]

I have no direct experience with 'Mersey Rail' but:

 

This isn't in the 'Ned Kelly' league of offences. I honestly don't know if they will write to the Irish address. Was it Northern Ireland or the Republic? I expect that they will use one of the various 'tracking systemes' and stand a reasonable chance of working out who you are.

 

Some folk will suggest that you wait and see 'what happens'. Mersey rail may give up when they get post back from the address that you have given. Or they might not.

 

For peace of mind, I suggest that you take the initiative, contact them, tell them how silly you have been, and offer to pay them a reasonable contribution.

 

By 'drawing the sting', I suspect that they will be minded to accept your money.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Wriggler7
grammar

[Guest Grievance_P]

Hide and Hide well, Merseyrail WILL contact the house number that you gave and the person or persons living there WILL give you up.

 

Lying ontop of an offence is not a good way to go

 

Do you know why Irish trains are so clean?...... cause there all over here putting their feet up on ours.

 

I actually agree with Wriggler 7 give yourself up and face up to your crimes.

[Wriggler7]

If/when you contact them, I would suggest that you do not tell them that you always put your feet on the seat. I rather suspect that you will gain some further 'comments' about that from folk who wear nice clothes.

[SRPO]

There is no fixed penalty for this offence, you either get a warning, arrange an out of court settlement or go to court.

[irish1990]

SRPO - In the event of having give the 'enforcement officers' a fake name and address would you suggest I own up to it?

 

A. Go to MerseyTravel HQ tomorrow (its across the street from where I live)

B. Write them a letter

 

It was an initial panic at the time, I shouldnt have gave them fake information though.

 

There is a 120-year-old bye-law which makes it a criminal offence "to interfere with the comfort or convenience" of fellow passengers which is what (if any) they will try to charge me on. I know it was wrong to put my foot on the seat - but the carriage was empty with no other passengers and it definitely wasn't interfering with the comfort or convenience of ANYBODY with my clean shoes. Ive also read that a spokesperson has stated to the media ""Passengers are informed whenever our security teams are on board their train, and if they choose to continue to behave in an unacceptable manner they will be dealt with accordingly." There was no announcement or warning today on the train. Just an empty carriage with me in it!

 

Just want to get back to enjoying life and forgetting about all this unbelievable nonsense

[SRPO]

N.I or Eire?

[Wriggler7]

I would suggest that you do not get into debates about whether your shoes were clean. Seats are for backsides, in trousers, skirts or kilts. Feet stay on the floor.

 

From your first post, you suggest that you may have given sufficient detail that Mersey Rail might be able to work out who you are. If they have to do the work, they will not want to know about 'out of court settlements'.

[irish1990]

SRPO Its Northern Ireland (which doesnt help I guess!)

Wriggler7 Do you mind if I ask what you mean by that?

 

Thanks for the advice guys, driving me up the wall at the moment

 

Really thinking of just calling into the MerseyTravel HQ tomorrow and asking to change my address to my student accommodation address?

 

I can explain that I dont want my parents seeing any letter... That way they might not be able to catch on that I have provided them a false address?

 

The guys were highly intimidating and I wouldn't trust them for the life of me - it was just an out of the ordinary reaction to give them false information, I couldn't honestly believe what was happening.

[irish1990]

Really dont mean to be a pain in the ass, but if I were to go down tomorrow and 'change' my address with them they would HAVE to acknowledge it and update any records they hold of me.

 

Data Protection Act 1998

 

1) Data may only be used for the specific purposes for which it was collected (so if I was told by the MerseyTravel rail officer that I "would be receiving a warning and nothing would come of it" - if given a fine in the post he mis leaded me into making me give him the information which is against the data protection act)

 

2) Personal information may be kept for no longer than is necessary and must be kept up to date (so if I were to get in contact with them to change my address to my correct address they would have to acknowledge this)

 

3) Subjects have the right to have factually incorrect information corrected (see above!)

[SRPO]

Unless the person living at the NI address were to send back the summons package to the court marked 'not known at this address' then you have got little choice but to go 'hands up'.

[irish1990]

SRPO There would be a way around them being able to tell I gave them false information though? If I were to ask them to change the address they hold for me....? Change it to my Liverpool address?

[SRPO]

You would simply say you have moved & this is your latest address. Frankly speaking, I think that once the prosecution dept see the NI address they will probably bin the report.

[Wriggler7]

As I said previously, I know nothing about Mersey Rail, but, I guess that there are more than a few NI resident people staying there. It may be that they 'give up', or it may be that they don't.

 

The suggestion to 'ignore' matters like this is a gamble, and whilst I am entitled to gamble at my own risk, I think it is wrong to suggest that another person gambles at their risk.

 

To 'deal' with this matter and bring it to a conclusion, so that it can be put behind the OP, I feel that the suggestion to visit 'Mersey Rail HQ', correct the postal address and face whatever consequences follow, is sound.

 

It can bring the matter back to a simple situation, no doubt some form of financial penalty, which to a student will probably seem expensive, but in reality will be similar to a speed camera penalty without the points.

 

To my mind, the risk of doing nothing is that Mersey Rail will write to the NI address, and might get a response, after which they might work out a 'proper' address and choose to prosecute a 'false name and address' case as well as a 'feet on seat' issue.

 

Lots of mights and maybes in this, but from the original post, the 'desire' seems to be to close this matter off, rather than have it hanging over the poster.

 

It is possible that if the folk at the address in NI ignore all letters, a prosecution, and a proof in absence could follow, and the first that the poster might know of it could be when a Court try to collect on fines.

 

I am uncertain whether an English Court can order bailiffs in NI to seek to collect, not something that I have ever had to consider as a south Essex man, my only contact with an issue like this was a lot of years ago, for a dissimilar offence, where a chap arrived from Eire at Hollyhead and had his collar felt on 'entry' into the UK.

 

It is a shame that no 'experts' from Liverpool have joined in this thread, they might have some insights that us southerners have missed.

[Asterix]

I hope that Irish teaches children not to put feet on seats and not to tell lies.

[45002]

Just google

 

merseyrail feet on seats

 

only to see what a hot topic this is

 

http://forums.liverpoolecho.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=14268

 

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2007/09/05/merseyrail-takes-840-to-court-over-feet-on-seats-64375-19735812/

[Wriggler7]

The link makes interesting reading, but I wonder if the 'report' misses the points.

 

The Magistrates were looking at a bright and no doubt well turned out 'defendant', charged with 'one' minor offence. They have not indicated that they will not deal with the many hundreds of similar offences, and I am sure that they will look at each case on it's own merit.

 

There is a simple mistake of fact in the article, the report states that Mersey rail are the only company to prosecute this offence. That is simply not true, I have watched one myself at Basildon Magistrates Court. Whereas I have not seen or heard the evidence of this 'Mersey' case, the evidence presented at Basildon was compelling, the Inspector asked the passenger three times to take his feet off the seat, and only submitted the report after the third instance. What I heard seemed very reasonable, and the Bench took quite a harsh view of the behaviour, fining £95.00. I have reason to remember the case, the defendant was a son of a person known to me, and not as a 'client'.

 

In the article, the local Council made a comment, and the general mood of the comments seem to support Mersey Rail in their action.