Allegded Corruption within our Transport companys

[Wriggler7]

My train was late. Reason, some git had been tampering with the 'earth return wire' again. I spoke with a member of staff about the reason for the leaky roof. Over Christmas, lead flashing (Yes, real lead, not the modern substitute) had been 'removed'. It was possibly caught by the runners of Santa's sleigh, or a bored tooth fairy, or a member of the great British public.

 

I shall submit a written complaint about how long does it take to replace stolen lead. No doubt, some of you will complain about 'fare rises'. Some of you may have the intellect to connect the two issues.

 

I am in favour of incarcerating 'fat cats' who take 'back handers' and extract bonuses from companies that purport to be public services, but they cannot be blamed for all of society's ills.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Wriggler7
spilling mistooks

[Wriggler7]

Incidentally, my journey was towards one of our many grand 'Palais de justice' that we have in the south of the county. There is a good cafe there, and I saw a railway prosecutor, munching a bun, paid for out of his own pocket.

 

Odd, thought I, at a Youth Court? After a general and jovial ribbing about how his train had made me too late to have a bun, and Court sandwiches being far superior to BR curly ones, (which may have been true in the 1960s, it isn't now) I asked him what great and serious misdemeanour he had come to prosecute. (I could guess, he never does grand larceny cases) A youth had bunked a fare. £2.10.

 

Being a great libertarian, and generally having a downer on multi million pound companies chasing kids for coppers, I muttered my surprise. But there were two cases to his detriment, both £2.10. And these were the fourth and fifth times he had been reported. And his criminal record would have embarrassed Max Bygraves.

 

And, in counter to how this thread started, the railway did not make much out of the half day. £29.20 to be precise. It was a clear 'public interest' prosecution.

 

My train home was on time, clean, warm, didn't rattle how the trains that my forefathers rode used to. Shame about that irritating womans voice that keeps saying 'coach A is the quiet zone'. I have already complained about that.

[Draconian]

Well Well Well .... You know your on to something and someone wants it hidden when the "Old Guard" come on and Troll the thread up with walks down memory lane .

[Old-CodJA]

Well Well Well .... You know your on to something and someone wants it hidden when the "Old Guard" come on and Troll the thread up with walks down memory lane .

 

Anybody got a clue what this one's on about ????

[SRPO]

Anybody got a clue what this one's on about ????

 

I guess he's saying that some people want this thread to go away, as there is obviously something to hide...

 

I tend to think that the best way to combat this alledged corruption would be to buy a ticket & take the opportunity to [problem] the public with these penalty fares & prosecutions away from the rail companys.

[Wriggler7]

What the 'old guard' know is that you have to keep your powder dry.

 

The first premise of this thread is simply flawed. It is not corrupt for a rail company to take criminals to Court. In fact, allowing an independant scrutiny is probably the least corrupt way of dealing with matters.

 

The revenue from prosecution is probably small. We, collectively, have suggested methods of discovering what that revenue is.

 

If there is corruption, and those who read and understood my previous comments will conclude that I think there is, it will not be discovered, or defeated, by non specific rants.

 

The 'enquiry' needs to be focussed.

 

You might choose to take issue with something like 'reliability'. It is valueless to say 'are you running a reliable train service', because the overall statistics, which may be obtained readily, say 'yes'.

 

The line of questioning needs to be more along the line of:

 

Q: Can I rely on your train to get me to work?

A: Yes.

Q: I work 5 days a week, Monday to Friday, starting at 5.20 am at Lakeside shopping centre, without me getting there on time, 'x' cannot open on time and will lose business. How often does the 5.12 from Grays arrive on time?

[Wriggler7]

Or you may wish to examine whether proper practices are followed. But again, you need to be specific. And you need to ask the right questions, in the right way.

 

When you advertise a post, what processes do you follow for selection of the proper candidate?

 

But, up your sleeve, you would want a specific and provable 'show stopper', like, so why were the posts filled before applicant 'x' was even interviewed?

 

And if you are intent on proving 'corruption', you would build the case 'quietly' until you are 'court ready'.

 

The most succesful pressure groups will have people who are ready to act as sacrificial lambs, who will apply for jobs, or make complaints. In extremis, they will risk their life, but they do not openly rant in non specific ways.

[Wriggler7]

You also need to distinguish between legal but sharp practice, and the illegal.

 

Most big business will have checked very carefully what the law allows them to do before they do it. This has always been a stumbling block for the well meaning campaigner, who does not have the same resources that the big business and Government has.

 

A 'railway' issue was the way that Government agreed to indemnify companies that took over old BR diesel sheds against certain pollution control legislation. The Government understood that without those indemnities, those parts of the former BR business were very 'unnatractive'. The companies that took them on acted lawfully, the Government acted lawfully, there is no 'case to answer', and the general public are simply not interested. The press did not waste much space on the issue, because the public would rather read about the peccadillos of a minor 'celebrity', or look at pictures of a footballer's wife getting out of a car whilst drunk.

[Wriggler7]

The day that someone brings me a solid allegation of corruption, I will gladly waive my fees.

[Wriggler7]

I think Draconian needs to understand that some of us have been poking our noses into 'corruption' for a long time. He might correctly suggest that we have lost our sense of smell, or the stomach for the fight, but I do resent the implication that I would cover 'corruption'.

 

I read Railnews last week. I saw several faces that I recognised. I have some strong feelings about some of them. What else I have is the understanding that I have no evidence against any of them, and the knowledge that If I put a name and an allegation, their lawyers will cheerfully chew large chunks out of the Wriggler family fortune.

[Old-CodJA]

I think Draconian needs to understand that some of us have been poking our noses into 'corruption' for a long time. He might correctly suggest that we have lost our sense of smell, or the stomach for the fight, but I do resent the implication that I would cover 'corruption'.

 

I read Railnews last week. I saw several faces that I recognised. I have some strong feelings about some of them. What else I have is the understanding that I have no evidence against any of them, and the knowledge that If I put a name and an allegation, their lawyers will cheerfully chew large chunks out of the Wriggler family fortune.

 

Exactly so, and whay I asked the question. Without evidence the allegation is going nowhere.

 

I have similar 'opinions' about some people, but am not going to shout and accuse without some real evidence to substantiate the allegation.

 

.

[Draconian]

The Thread was "Alledged"corruption , it was invoking questions and a hopefully a balanced banter of replys on a consumer forum group . what we got back were very pro active the rail companys and very anti the british public with huge amounts of waffel .Some of these people prehaps would be happier on a British Rail 'Fan Site' or train spotting .

I am not defending anyone who with intent seeks to Travel free so please stop saying this as your making yourselves look like Trolls , My support is for thousands of innocent people with impeckable records and good charactor who with no Intent find themselves with a Courts summons for very trvial amounts . Solicitors fees would far exceed £1000 if they plead innocent , so most plead Guilty with the hope of getting a fine plus costs . This is unexceptable in 2011 in England . Any public transport company who seeks to Criminalize a British citizen for amounts of £1-£5 without first given them the course of redress in the form of a penalty Charge or out of court settlement with the support of the courts is Clearly not working or acting in the publics interest . We don't want our Youth or any age group embitterd and prejudice towards the Legal system or indeed British rail for the rest of their lives due to this "Draconian" conduct . If a few bitter old men think otherwise then this has no Merit to the thinking population of UK .

[SRPO]

Clearly you have no idea how the prosecution system works.

If it is a case of not buying a ticket before travel then a Penalty Fare will be charged if facilities were available, all persons reported for summons are first written to before a summons is applied for.

That gives them the opportunity to plead their case, if there was clearly no intent to avoid I cannot see any rail company pushing for a prosecution unless they are given no option or there are previous PFs / convictions or abuse of staff.

The costs awarded by the courts are rarely collected & are normally written off after a couple of years of waiting.

In London alone, £500million worth of fines issued by magistrates are outstanding, even the parking [problem] operators have a better collection rate than court enforcement officers.

 

The only reason railway companies prosecute is because no one else will, how would you feel if it was a free-for-all?

[Stigy]

Clearly you have no idea how the prosecution system works.

If it is a case of not buying a ticket before travel then a Penalty Fare will be charged if facilities were available, all persons reported for summons are first written to before a summons is applied for.

That gives them the opportunity to plead their case, if there was clearly no intent to avoid I cannot see any rail company pushing for a prosecution unless they are given no option or there are previous PFs / convictions or abuse of staff.

The costs awarded by the courts are rarely collected & are normally written off after a couple of years of waiting.

In London alone, £500million worth of fines issued by magistrates are outstanding, even the parking [problem] operators have a better collection rate than court enforcement officers.

 

The only reason railway companies prosecute is because no one else will, how would you feel if it was a free-for-all?

The staff are under no obligation to issue a PF, and can report the facts straight away without even thinking about a PF if they so desire, as you probably know. The Penalty Fare is intended to keep byelaw ticketing offences out of court, and is intended as a deterrantagain, as I'm sure you already know. But that doesn't mean a TOC wouldn't prosecute for a byelaw ticketing offence, where it wasn't necessarily proved that the offender intended to avoid the payment of their rail fare. the TOC I work for have succesfuly prosecuted numerous 18.1/2s ect.

[SRPO]

Yes indeed & as I said no TOC will consider prosecution unless the points I stated are effective.

There is a huge gap between what the inspector does & how the matter is disposed of.

[honeybee13]

Fwiw Draconian, I'm not embittered [or I don't think I am], male or a railway enthusiast.

 

You posted a provocative thread title that rather confused me and possibly did so to others, alleging corruption. I don't understand why you thought that might encourage 'banter'. But you don't seem to have had a flood of replies from people wishing to join your cause, which may speak for itself.

 

There doesn't seem to be much point in beating up the guys from the forum, although I'm sure they can handle it.

 

HB

[Wriggler7]

Advice has been given. If you think that railways are wrong to prosecute offenders, and if you think that they make lots of money doing so, make a request from those companies to determine how much they make, how many fare irregularities are prosecuted, how many penalty fare notices are issued.

 

They will also supply figures of how many passenger journeys are made.

 

You could also attend Court and watch railway prosecutions.

 

Part of your allegation was that the number of prosecutions has increased. You therefore will want the figures for the last several years. My understanding, which may not be correct, is that the 'number' of cases per year has stayed fairly static since 1995. That is derived from 'chatting' with staff, and not from recorded statistics.

 

Before 'privatisation', the cases were referred to British Transport Police. More serious cases still are, but the overall effect is a transfer of 'who pays the prosecutor'.

 

The argument that the railways are criminalizing the population does not, in my view, hold water. It may even be that by making it thoroughly well known that prosecution is a potential or even likely outcome of avoiding a rail fare will reduce the number of people who choose to offend.

 

Low level crime has a very great impact on the daily lives of a great proportion of the population, whereas the more serious offences tend to affect a smaller group. It was a Mayor of New York who made the case for zero tolerance. Cities like Singapore, which has a very harsh attitude to minor misdemeanours, have a very low level of minor crime.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, there has not been a vast increase in numbers of prosecutions since privatisation and just to add a little more information to the very good summary by Wriggler7.

 

In the few years immediately before the break up of BR, prosecution of offenders in London and the SouthEast, ( the old NSE area ) did increase and much of that action against offenders was taken by British Rail through the private prosecution process, headed by the former NSE Fraud HQ team based in the city.

 

BTP resources were being stretched and a better revenue protection & fraud detection process had been put in place by the then Network SoutEast management headed by Chris Green. All that the TOCs have done since is continued with that procedure and in fact, in some areas the number of prosecutions has fallen.

 

The actual legislations having been in place since the mid-19th Century, they are simply being enforced where appropriate and where offenders are detected.

[Draconian]

So we are slowly approaching some kind of truth . We know summonses are being issued to British citizens with No intent who have had no option but to travel without a valid ticket due to Machines not working or emptied and alarmed or other valid reasons .

We also know the increase of these said summonses has increased Tenfold . It now remains for the truth about Why ? . Has there been a Directive from rail Bosses to increase Revenue or is this due to some resent incentive scheme which allows the Inspectors a % of penalty charge or court costs .

Old Codja talks with some kind of fondness of the days of British Rail before privatisation .

Those Bygone days , the Glory years when the British public respected the railway and staff , when stations were clean with open waiting rooms with a fire in winter , a welcome smile from the station master at your local station , a porter who would Carrie your heavy bags , toilets which were clean and open , a quaint old love in the tea room or kiosk or kindly chap who would chat , Station master who would compete with each other for awards of merit and worth , who took pride in their stations with flower boxes and niceties . I think the last Steam trains on the Fenchurch St line were as late as early sixties ? For shunting or passengers I’m not sure . Of course I’m to young to remember these glorious past days but my Gt grandfather did work for British rail so his diaries make fascinated reading .

There’s a Lot you want to say Old codja so now’s your chance to unburden yourself , lets hear it what you really think of Privatisation of the railways and how you yearn for those bygone days .

I will say one thing those fires going out in the waiting rooms wasn’t just the end of a facility which was to expensive to maintain . It marked the end of an age , it marked change and not for the better , it was a sad mourning of a glorious past and yes in many ways the death of an Empire .

See you lot have got me at it now lol

　

[honeybee13]

Hello Draconian. I'm not a Transport guru by any means, but I would be interested to know what your point is. And if you're able to, please could you explain why you've become a member at CAG?

 

I apologise if this comes across as confrontational, I'm having a bad day. Won't bore you with the details.

 

HB

[RPI]

Yes wonderfull BR, they de staffed stations, closed railways, did away with barriers at stations, introduced Penalty fares (not a problem with me but you seem against draconian), introduced the worst ever design of train (the 142 railbus which we still have to endure today), replaced 10 coach loco+coaches with 2 car "sprinters".................................

[Draconian]

???? I'm not sure what your point is either as you have brought nothing to the table .Clearly I have known a few people who have had Penalty charges and one with a summons , I was therefore trying to make some sence of how in 2011 this kind of Draconian conduct can be allowed to proceed unchallenged and If ? there was more behind it . So many real and terrible crimes are going on in this county and Need the legal systems efforts and time , and not trivial or petty matters

[SRPO]

???? I'm not sure what your point is either as you have brought nothing to the table .Clearly I have known a few people who have had Penalty charges and one with a summons , I was therefore trying to make some sence of how in 2011 this kind of Draconian conduct can be allowed to proceed unchallenged and If ? there was more behind it . So many real and terrible crimes are going on in this county and Need the legal systems efforts and time , and not trivial or petty matters

 

I think you should contact the guardian, I reckon you may have uncovered a huge conspiracy. I for one am fed up with hearing stories of rail staff going on 5* all inclusive holidays to barbados at the expense of the travelling public.

[Wriggler7]

There was much that was good on 'good old BR' and much that was bad.

 

A study of railway history will show many abuses of 'systems' by railway companies, if you read the reports of the state of Rainham station before LT&SR took over from 'the builders' and then the report of the condition immediately after, you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to spot that there was something horribly amiss.

 

That Acts of Parliament had to be introduced to make railways fit brakes, interlock points with signals and so on tells a story of corrupt practice by private rail companies, all the way back to Rainhill.

 

The actions of BR managers immediately prior to privatisation is interesting reading.

 

However, corruption tends to exist in areas that are away from proper scrutiny. Draconian seems to take issue with 'prosecution'.

 

That has to be one area where corruption is least likely to exist. A railway alleges that someone has committed a crime. That person has opportunities to challenge the allegation in an independant and binding forum, that is to say, a Magistrates Court. The legal system allows them to make appeals against the decisions of Magistrates in Crown Courts.

[Wriggler7]

If Draconian insists on looking for corruption within the rail industry, I suggest that he reads the submissions made by franchise holders, and looks for what 'promises' were made to the Dft.

 

It can be seen that at certain times, certain issues were of greatest concern to the 'company'. Were those statistics properly proven? Did they do the things that they promised, and if the 'figures' show that they did, were those figures properly proven?

 

And Draconian might wish to consider whether the 'corruption' is part of a corporate and collective practice by the Company, at Board level, or just the work of a few 'bad men'.

 

It is true that some of us are fond of 'old BR', but some of us have longe memories of aspects of 'BR' that were seriously flawed.

 

About once a week, I walk past a man who was sacked during the last knockings of 'BR' for a fraud involving several thousand of pounds through the simple process of getting bills for building work that were about ten times the value of the work done. I know his face from seeing him come to the Crown Court when he was a 'defendant'.

 

The evidence at the time, over 15 years ago, made it clear that the 'corrupt practice' involved a little gang of managers, acting together, but not with the complicit knowledge of the 'board'. Indeed, it was other BR managers who first spotted and reported the fraud.

 

My caveat about 'allegations' was, and is, be careful with making allegations. Without evidence, which is hard to find without access to proper records and witnesses, an allegation may have to remain just that, and if made in the wrong way will render the person making the allegation subject to proceedings himself.

 

As I said in a previous post, there is corruption in the 'world', and it would be foolish to think that railways alone are immune to it. But I think that the 'prosecution for profit' tree is the wrong one to bark up.