Allegded Corruption within our Transport companys

[Draconian]

Whats going on with our transport in southeast operators namely national Express . not content with 'Penalty Charges' now they are issueing court summons in Epidemic proportions without any penalty charge being given . we know they are making millions 82 m to be precise from penalty charges but how much are they coining in from court action in there thousands , many for trivial amounts of £2 -£3 fares plus costs and posoble fines ???? what do the Inspectors get out of it ? is it the same 5% as with panalty charges .....

Could this be a way for a failing company to get some money in till before they get kicked out so their fat-cat directors can sail off into the sunset ?

And more importantly what can the British Public do about It ?:mad2:

[Wriggler7]

I must confess that I do not know about NXEA, but I do know that c2c Inspectors do not get any commission, either for penalty fare notices or for the 'income' from prosecutions.

 

The number of prosecutions that c2c has carried out in 2010 is much the same as it has been for the last ten years. The Courts examine cases, and do not allow 'costs' claims to be more than a 'contribution towards' the costs of bringing a case. If you think that they make a profit, maybe you should write to the 'company' and ask for their figures.

 

As avoiding fares is a crime, the costs of which would otherwise be passed on to people who pay their fares or tax payers who subsidise railways, I feel that it is a duty that TOCs should try to get the money from the offenders.

[Wriggler7]

Where did you get the £82m figure from? Not one that I have seen.

 

The 'fat cats' will not be sailing off into any sunset for a while, the franchises were recently extended.

 

The public can do several things. In the first instance, they can buy the right ticket before boarding any train. Then no penalty or prosecution will follow. They can stop putting their feet on the seats, or smoking on the station, or climbing over the fence.

 

If the public does not want to do all of those things, they can buy a car, tax it, pay for insurance and stay off the railway.

 

As I have said in other posts, if they still do not like something that a train operator does, they can write to the registered company offices. I think it was Old Codja who also reminded us of our right to write to MPs, Dft, ATOC and Uncle Tom Cobbley.

[Draconian]

@ Wriggler. 82 m was Dept of Transport figure for Revenue from Penalty charges as was 5% for Bonus ? given for Penalty charges , not sur where that 5% went to or whom.

I agree that when its an effence with Intent to evaid fare then of course there should be a fine but what we are seeing is the courts overflowing with a sudden increase in summons for very trivial amounts without any Penalty charge being given. also what is a Crime Wriggler is having to wait in 2011 on a sticking Pee ridden cold train platform with no heated waiting room as trains are delayed for Hours Those ancient stations were designed to have an open waiting room which had a fireplace within and that was in the last centary so I think we should at least have better or equal than our forefathers , so prehaps some of that 82m could provide better conditions for customers.

National Express are clearly a Troubled Company not just due to the Directors revolting against their MD but because of Public confidence , so it would be a good idea for them at this stage to not draw attention to themselfs with Draconian behavior and further alienate the British Public ........

Where did you get the £82m figure from? Not one that I have seen.

 

The 'fat cats' will not be sailing off into any sunset for a while, the franchises were recently extended.

 

The public can do several things. In the first instance, they can buy the right ticket before boarding any train. Then no penalty or prosecution will follow. They can stop putting their feet on the seats, or smoking on the station, or climbing over the fence.

 

If the public does not want to do all of those things, they can buy a car, tax it, pay for insurance and stay off the railway.

 

As I have said in other posts, if they still do not like something that a train operator does, they can write to the registered company offices. I think it was Old Codja who also reminded us of our right to write to MPs, Dft, ATOC and Uncle Tom Cobbley.

[Wriggler7]

So £82m is the figure for all penalty fares in the UK. Ok. Nat.Ex is only responsible for two franchises, so will get very little of that £82m.

 

As far as I am aware, there has been no significant increase in the number of prosecutions since 1995.

 

If you have specific complaints about services provided by any train operating company, write to them. One complaint at a time, preferably in English. Freepost 'comment forms' may be obtained from any NXEA or c2c station.

[RPI]

I know FGW PF collectors get no commission, the 5% is just a cap set by DFT for commission on PF's, Not sure if any TOC's actually give it though.

[Wriggler7]

I seem to recall a previous thread where various rail staff reported that no one gets a commission, there may still be some 'conducters' that do, but generally speaking, my understanding is that the staff are salaried, and do not get 'productivity' bonuses.

 

As has been said in many other previous threads, Companies that have a penalty fare scheme are not obliged to always offer a penalty fare. Nothing in any of the penalty fare schemes procludes prosecution for offences, and there are even provisions for the situation where a penalty is 'part paid', which allow for the matter to still be put before a Court.

 

As an 'income stream' for train operators, I rather think that the revenue generated by penalty fare schemes and prosecution will be small in comparison to other income. However, the knowledge that Court and prosecution is a potential consequence of getting on a train without a ticket should increase the revenue from ticket sales. There must be many passengers who are tempted to 'bunk', who decide against the idea when they understand the risks.

[Stigy]

Commercial Guards (SWT) get 5% on all tickets they sell on board their trains, and I believe it's the same with other TOCs, too. Southern are the same I believe. I've never known any TOC to have Revenue Protection staff that gain commission for each Penalty Fare they issue, as this would result in PFs being issued when they shouldn't be etc. Also, the TOC doesn't get 100% of the £20 or however much the PF is worth, and instead only get a small percentage themselves, so how would they be able to pay commission?

[RPI]

The only Revenu staff that get commission in FGW are Ticket Examiners who DON'T issue PF's, FGW Conductors and TM's also get commission but again don't issue PF's.

[Wriggler7]

When I first read the title of this thread, I became rather excited. All my working life, I have messed around with low level crime, and I have always wanted to be the guy outside The Old Bailey releasing a statement to the press about a major scalp taken throroughly for some of the most serious villainy in the land.

 

However, we failed to get an allegation of corruption.

 

The 'good question' was 'what can the public do about it?'

[Wriggler7]

Famously, a member of the public filmed an incident at one of the stations on my local line. There may be all sorts of questions about the legality of filming on railways, but he supplied the images to the press. The 'press' followed protocols, but getting no response from the 'company', those images found their way onto front pages of local papers and 'inside pages' of all of the 'nationals'.

 

If you search the internet, those images may still be found quite easily.

 

There are other avenues for the public. Allegations may be sent to Health & Safety executive, or 'Trading Standards' or the Department for transport.

 

Local MPs and councillors are also very happy to look into issues.

 

However, all of these options require that 'the great British Public' stops wasting it's life watching 'Celebrity come skate at my dining jungle', and pokes it's collective nose into those things that upset them. And has the tenacity to follow the complaint/allegation through.

 

In a world where corporations and Governments routinely bury 'bad news', of course there is corruption. It would be foolish to think that railways alone were immune to it. But you will not change that sorry situation without effort, and making a fuss, and obtaining the 'truth'.

[Wriggler7]

As a small child, I once was given a dinner that I did not like. I sat and pushed food around the plate until a very old lady said 'what's the matter with you?' I told her that I didn't like peas, but I told her quietly, scared in case anyone heard me. She said 'You have a tongue in your head, if you don't like something, say so.'

 

That was a lot of years ago, but her 'advice' is as true to day as it was then.

[RPI]

If this is the same incident i'm thinking of then there was a little more to it than what the press reported on, although the staff member was out of order in his reaction the press made it look like just a ticketing issue when actually the "customer" spat at the member of staff!

[Wriggler7]

Oh, there was much more to the whole incident than the press reported, but it is 'an example' of 'what the public can do'.

 

The 'point' that I am making is that the 'photographer', who may himself have acted illegally (note use of word 'may') took the time and trouble to 'do something' rather than just wander off and do 'nothing'.

[Wriggler7]

Incidentally, before going to 'press', the local paper had contacted the company and given every opportunity for a response, only publishing after being ignored.

[Wriggler7]

I just looked again at the various 'web reports' of 'that incident'. It is now over 4 years old, surely there must be a more up to date 'shock horror' ticket inspector story than that one!

 

One of the 'bad' aspects of 'web reports', 'blogs' and so on are that many of the 'comments' added to the 'report' were made by people who had no knowledge of the 'incident'. The press report itself was 'not accurate', but uses all of those careful phrases, quoting unnamed witnesses and the like.

[Draconian]

My Thread was started after speaking to an essex solicitor pal also a C2C Inspector Pal .

I think the bottom line is we don't know how much they are making : more from Penalty charges or court summons ????? What should concern all is if this is true these companys are seeking to Criminalize British subjects for very Trivial amounts of money with total disregard or respect , clearly for their own gain .

People who with Intent evade fares should be fined within reason but those without intent should not . without being OTT lets just remember ................

We used to hang people in this country for stealing a loaf of bread at one time , but we have moved on from those Barbaric ignorant times . So lets not let a Transport company which serves the public drag us back in time regardless if they have there own railway Police . OK the stations are lost in time but we have moved on.

My advice to anyone would be , always attempt to buy a ticket , if unable due to machine emptied or not working is to use emergency alarm intercom on station and report it , get name of person you speak to , If you know someone on platform then get there details as a witness just in case as the inspectors connot be trusted .

[SRPO]

...My advice to anyone would be , always attempt to buy a ticket , if unable due to machine emptied or not working is to use emergency alarm intercom on station and report it , get name of person you speak to , If you know someone on platform then get there details as a witness just in case as the inspectors connot be trusted .

 

Its precisely because the public cannot be trusted that the railway companies have to employ their own ticket police

Personally I think all stations should be manned during service hours, obviously there will be cost implications, but at least there will be no need for penalty fares or prosecutions.....are you willing to pay for it tho?

[Wriggler7]

If you want to know how much is being 'made' from Court summons action, penalty fares or out of Court settlements, why not write to the Company?

 

I have a strong feeling that when the figures are analysed, and the costs of the Inspectorate calculated, you will find that they make a loss or at best break even.

 

If you have issues of 'trust' in a particular member of staff, or group of staff, again, write to the company and raise you views.

 

Over the years, Inspectors have had a 'mixed press'. There have been one or two notoriously rotten eggs, just as there have been priests, MPs and so on. My own observation of the Inspectors that I have seen working is that they are 'good people'. However, I only speak as I find, and if you have seen or experienced a less than satisfactory member of staff, make a complaint to their employer.

[Wriggler7]

I am sure that your 'c2c Inspector pal' will be able to slip you the address for the relevant manager, or you could use the freepost address on the 'comment forms' available at every station.

 

When making a complaint, be specific, give times, dates and places, and the details of the member of staff. A broad statement like 'the inspectors cannot be trusted' is just not good enough. I think that they employ about 40 Inspectors. Whilst I would not suggest that a group of 40 people are honest with everything that they do all of the time, I would equally never suggest that a group of 40 people cannot be trusted with everything that they do.

 

In our society, there are mechanisms for redress and examination, and if a prosecution is based on a lie, it is examined by Magistrates who have no personal interest in the case. Any person receiving a summons from a railway has the right to attend Court and to tell the Magistrates 'what happened'. The penalties for a witness who presents a false account are severe.

 

I rather suspect that CAG members who have stood in Court as witnesses and prosecutors have a very clear understanding of that, and a very great desire to not go to prison to meet some of the folk that they have testified against or prosecuted.

[Wriggler7]

Perhaps you could quietly ask your 'c2c Inspector pal' what the figures are, what the rate of pay is, and whether they get any form of commission. The maths should then be simple.

[Old-CodJA]

Hi Draconian,

 

There is a thread on this forum asking broadly similkar questions of DLR & TfL in a much less inflamatory manner.

 

I understand that you might want to vent a little of your own discontent on a public forum and may be seeking support for 'the cause', but a simple FOI application would make more sense to me and I'm sure that if your Solicitor 'Pal' had had time to have thought about it a bit more, perhaps he would have suggested that.

 

The poster on the thread I refer to did exactly that and although it took a few weeks to get the answers to the questions asked, those answers were forthcoming and posted for all to see.

 

It costs nothing to make the application under Freedom of Information Act, you may not get all the answers that you are seeking, but what you do get will be 'from the horse's mouth'

 

They may not be obliged to answer all your questions, but the TOCs don't generally want the 'bad' publicity that might ensue from refusing to answer, for fear it might suggest there was something to hide.

 

Good Luck

 

.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Draconian]

Very interesting that 90% of replys are pro the Train Co's ?????? next station will be " Troll central"

Forum . : place to express yourself: a medium in which the public may debate an issue or express opinions.

[Old-CodJA]

[quote=Draconian;3243322I agree that when its an effence with Intent to evaid fare then of course there should be a fine but what we are seeing is the courts overflowing with a sudden increase in summons for very trivial amounts without any Penalty charge being given. also what is a Crime Wriggler is having to wait in 2011 on a sticking Pee ridden cold train platform with no heated waiting room as trains are delayed for Hours Those ancient stations were designed to have an open waiting room which had a fireplace within and that was in the last centary so I think we should at least have better or equal than our forefathers , so prehaps some of that 82m could provide better conditions for customers.

National Express are clearly a Troubled Company not just due to the Directors revolting against their MD but because of Public confidence , so it would be a good idea for them at this stage to not draw attention to themselfs with Draconian behavior and further alienate the British Public ........

 

Can we just to go back to your posting, which was clearly anti-rail companies and in particular NX for a moment.

 

Who is it that creates the conditions that you are ranting about.

 

1. Exactly who is it that makes some rail stations 'stinking & pee ridden'? Answer = some of The Great British Public. Yes, some conveniences are in need of renewal and replacement and some are locked late at night because of high levels of vandalism, but it's the drunken and loutish behaviour that frequently sees people urinating in public areas, sometimes for no reason other than a sense of michief or plain laziness that has a part to play too.

 

2. You say: 'Those ancient stations were designed to have an open waiting room which had a fireplace within and that was in the last centary so I think we should at least have better or equal than our forefathers' Answer = We have. No-one pretends everything is perfect and Wriggler7 started a perfectly good thread to discuss what people dislike and make them complain. However your thread is nothing more than an unsubstantiated accusation of corruption, which appears to be motivated by disatisfaction with service issues.

 

3. You don't appear to think there is a need for a 'summons for very trivial amounts' Answer = Our forefathers did and applied the penalties much more rigidly than today. Going to prison for for many very 'trivial' offences by modern standards was much more common in the 1880s.

 

Perhaps that's why we became the great British public in fact. People were less tolerant of anti-social activities and law breakers and much keener to uphold the rules of common decency and shame the defaulters.

 

I too have expressed my opinion, and I thank the admin for that opportunity

 

The train now leaving 'Troll Central' is fast for 'Whinger's Junction'.....

 

'All tickets please' .............

.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Old-CodJA
Corrected grammar

[Wriggler7]

Strangely, on my way to an ancient station to travel this morning, I was contemplating this thread. I wandered, lonely as a cloud, looking at the detritus left by the great British public. The trail of discarded (effectively stolen) beer glasses from the Half Crown, the puddle of vomit being washed by the rain into the gutter to mix with the fag butts and Coke cans.

 

As I approached the station, there was the cleaner, who must think 'we British' are a hopeless lot, tipping bags of Maccy D wrappers and so on into the station bins.

 

The bus shelters are vandalised, not by the bus company. Ok, there are many issues that I have with the 'railway company', I encourage legitimate complaint, and I submit my own, but we all have to recognise that the 'company' do not employ people to drop chewing gum onto the platform. There is no 'please pee here' sign next to the sweet vending machine. I do wonder what sort of animal uses a machine that kiddies get sweets from as a urinal.