Partner has been suspended from work, help! ***WON***

[SarEl]

It's known as 'tactical incompetance'. Bet ya haven't asked him since, ha?

 

My brother had his first wife convinced that he could not use the washing machine or do any housework - he turned her lingerie pink the first time he did it. He was most disappointed when ny mother eventually heard this on a visit and pointed out to his wife that he had been taught all aspects of housework, knew how to load a washing machine, and had done so regularly for many years. I don't think that was the reason she divorced him - but it may have been a factor.!

[natasha2010]

good luck with it all - i was dismissed today and will probably have to go down the same tribunal route as you. I hope your employer offers to make an agreement, but if not, at least you will cost them some money defending themselves !

[MONX]

good luck with it all - i was dismissed today and will probably have to go down the same tribunal route as you. I hope your employer offers to make an agreement, but if not, at least you will cost them some money defending themselves !

 

 

Yes Natasha,

 

If nothing else they will have to take some time out of their busy schedule to attend the tribunal. I have no idea if the tribunal will come down on our side or with the employer, our case is relying on the fact that they took an "unreasonable" period of time to conduct the correct disciplinary procedure and that we have issues with the way it was conducted, we are also questioning the fact that suspension without pay is a knee jerk reaction to any disciplinary matters and that no investigation is gone into to decide if it is appropriate etc.

 

We are hopeful that the tribunal will think the employer has been "unreasonable" and has treated us "unfairly" but they are no guarentees. We are going to expect the worse and hope to be pleasantly surprised. That way we are managing our own expectations and will not suffer any dissapointment.

 

Acas has been in touch, a new conciliation officer has introduced himself by letter to the OH so who knows, the employers will have already recieved their copy of our ET1 by now and may be ready to enter into conciliation.

 

Anyway, if anything of note occurs I will keep you updated.

 

MONX x

[MONX]

No news...which is suppose is good news but I have a question.

 

The letter sent to both ourselves and the ex employer states that the respondant (ex employer) has until 22nd March to respond to our ET1 ( i assume that their response would be on an ET3). The letter states that if the respondant doesnt respond by that date "that the claim will proceed undefended, or a default judgement may be made".

 

Does anyone have any experience of this happening?

 

Does this mean that if it is undefended the tribunal finds in favour of the claimant?

 

Would this happen at or around 22.3.11 or on the actual tribunal date?

 

Anyone got any ideas?

 

Also...where is SarEL....certainly missing her no nonsence advice!?

 

Monx x

[honeybee13]

Hi Monx. I haven't seen SarEl here for a week or so. I hope someone will know the answer to your question, it's quite a common query here, just one I 've never had dealings with.

 

How are you both bearing up?

 

My best, HB

[elpulpo]

I think SarEl's off on one of her expensive foreign holidays that she's always boasting about, how the other half lives ,eh?

Either that or she's had enough of us all and has cleared off to moneysavingexpert..

I wouldn't get your hopes up about the Respondant not responding, as I understand it even if they don't respond in time they almost routinely get an extension by then claiming that they never received the ET1 in the first place. It's rarely that easy, the only Respondants I've heard of not reponding at all are those who've gone kaput.

[MONX]

Thanks HB

 

Yes we are fine, OH has registered with a few agencies, hopefully his reason for last job ending wont be an issue for them and after two or more jobs he wont have to declare reason for leaving "that" job as it wont be his last. If you catch my drift?

 

The reason I am asking these questions is that the OH's employer seems to be one of those that does nothing and seems to hope it will all go away and It could possibly be what ends up happening in our case. They really had trouble with deadlines and really didnt think they had to comply/reply to any of our requests or questions. They honestly think they are made of teflon and it is that arrogance as well as the hardship and total disregard for the OH that has kept us plugging away.

[elpulpo]

Aye, agencies are a good way to go, to put some distance between the dismissal. Agencies don't usually ask too many questions.

[MONX]

I wouldn't get your hopes up about the Respondant not responding, as I understand it even if they don't respond in time they almost routinely get an extension by then claiming that they never received the ET1 in the first place. It's rarely that easy, the only Respondants I've heard of not reponding at all are those who've gone kaput.

 

Really?

 

So basically deadlines are there but if your an employer they are only guidelines (like the pirate ones lol) and can be moved?

 

I dont know why I am so surprised...it just seemed so black and white in the letter I just assumed that rules are rules....i am going to have to stop being so gulliable lol!

[elpulpo]

Oh aye, you need to be prepared for the ET judges acting in accord with the 'Indemnity for the ruling class act'.

[honeybee13]

I agree with you Monx, but plenty of employers on this forum and some of their legal people have taken enormous amounts of latitude, applied for more time etc. It's always surprised me how much some of them get away with.

 

My best, HB

[MONX]

Update of sorts,

 

Rang ET office yesterday and asked if they had recieved anything from the respondant, she said that nothing had been recieved and they havent been contacted regarding a request for more time. I asked bearing in mind that the deadline is today (tomorrow when I asked) what was next and the very helpful clerk said that they had until midnight tomorrow (today) to respond and then if nothing was recieved they would send the claim up to the ET judge tomorrow for a direction. This could mean that the judge will make a judgement based on our ET form or ask for more information etc.

 

I know that what will probably happen is that the judge may make a default judgement in our favour and then the employer will appeal stating they never recieved the ET1.

[elpulpo]

Yep. Don't get excited yet.

And remember, even if you get a judgement you've then got to get the money out of them, and that can be more than half the battle.

[MONX]

If it wasnt for the fact that we have already gone so far and that injustice makes my blood boil, i could be tempted to forget the whole thing!

 

Dont worry, once i get my teeth into something I dont let go but I have to be honest....I am losing the will to live !!!

 

It just seems to be endless and I think we just need closure and to be able to put all of this behind us.

[natasha2010]

Keep at it sweetie, u have done the worst part already. I know its almost tempting to give up, I feel the same about mine but don't give them the satisfaction!

 

I had to close my thread for now in case employer saw it but am at the stage where my home insurance agreed to cover costs and tribunal draft is being sent to me for review. In meantime...after much ado, I managed to avoid having to physically attend the appeal since I got a full time job so have just written to them asking for an appeal response by post. The employer has been horrid but I'm gradually making progress.

 

Solicitor gave me 60% odds on winning but I can't help hoping employer will offer to settle when they get papers, I just want it all over and to move on, its been so traumatic.

 

I feel for u with your situation, must have been so awful with no pay and employer not getting back to u (mine reply quick but are nasty). Its the waiting which is the worst and employers know that. Keep at it, nearly there now! X

[natasha2010]

Ps. My opinion of ACAS is they are useless and quite often rude too! You'll make more progress alone.

[MONX]

Keep at it sweetie, u have done the worst part already. I know its almost tempting to give up, I feel the same about mine but don't give them the satisfaction!

 

I had to close my thread for now in case employer saw it but am at the stage where my home insurance agreed to cover costs and tribunal draft is being sent to me for review. In meantime...after much ado, I managed to avoid having to physically attend the appeal since I got a full time job so have just written to them asking for an appeal response by post. The employer has been horrid but I'm gradually making progress.

 

Solicitor gave me 60% odds on winning but I can't help hoping employer will offer to settle when they get papers, I just want it all over and to move on, its been so traumatic.

 

I feel for u with your situation, must have been so awful with no pay and employer not getting back to u (mine reply quick but are nasty). Its the waiting which is the worst and employers know that. Keep at it, nearly there now! X

 

Thanks for you words of encouragement Natasha,

 

Glad to hear things moving at your end. I hope they just pay up to avoid the hassle. just so you dont have to deal with them any more.

 

Congratulations on the job! Really pleased for you!

 

I agree that ACAS are of little use unless you get a good officer, the one I had was quite sympathetic and saw how frustrating the employers were at first hand so she could see why we were pursuing it although she never made any comments, she made it clear to us in other ways that she thought they were cr4p!

 

I am not planning on throwing the towel in any way.....sometimes it gets a bit much for me. My father has bowel cancer, my mother has just been diagnosed with Alzheimers, my daughter has left home and my partner is out of work! At the moment this just seems like one more thing I could do without!!!!

[honeybee13]

Hi Monx. Poor you, life does sound tough. I wish I could help more, but have a virtual hug for now. Chin up.

 

HB x

[MONX]

Well, Well, well.....ive just had a phone call from the OH, they have managed to squeeze the ET3 in before the deadline and its waiting for me at home.

 

Once Ive read it and digested what they are saying I will get back to you.

 

(thanks HB, i hate being down its just got a bit too much for me lately at least now i can see what they are basing their defence on and can make counter arguments)

 

The problem I have at the moment is I feel i put too much information on the ET1 and have probably given them the upper hand as far as counter arguments are concerned.

[MONX]

Ok, et3 recieved and it seems as though the employers havent even sought legal help as they have literally reiterated the points as to why the appeal was lost. they havent even mentioned anything about the unfairness of the five weeks without pay just that it was down to adverse weather conditions and that there is no legal requirement to pay during suspension.

 

they havent argued against the charge that suspension without pay is a relative disciplinary action and that acas guiidelines should have been followed, they dont even counter the argument that suspension without pay is procedural for them and that there is no consideration wether it is appropriate.

 

they keep banging on that the OH signed his contract and that he signed to say he knew where the hand book was. They do not even counter that fact that we are arguing that the he was never given his own copy to keep.

 

It was signed by the HR manager so I am assuming that they have just filled it in themselves.

 

Unless they have sought legal advice but are waiting for the court case to pounce?

[elpulpo]

Often a respondant won't instruct a solicitor until the case has been looked at by the judge and allowed to proceed, or they've just had verbal advice from the S as to how to fill out the ET3. Or it's been filled out by an HR putana, who think they're solicitors yet would struggle to solicit on a street corner.

The 'putting in the ET3 at the last moment' is quite a 'professional' ploy.

[MONX]

Thanks for that Elpulpo

 

As this is the first time i have done this it is a bit daunting.

 

To be honest from what they have put on the ET3 I am not too worried, I had thought they would counter each and every point we made and challenged any case law we used but they just reiterated the reason the appeal failed and kept banging on that my OH had signed his contract and signed to say he knew where the hand book was.

 

They offered no argument that suspension is procudural, they didnt address the fact that no investigation was carried out into the appropriateness of the suspension and only stated that the adverse weather was the reason that the suspension was so long.

 

I am pretty sure that I can argue these points coherently if I am allowed to speak in my OH's place.

Do you think that will be allowed?

 

I am just not sure what to do between now and July, am I supposed to counter the ET3 in any way or do I just keep schtum until the day of the tribunal?

[elpulpo]

You should be able to represent him, yes.

Now the ET3 has gone in you just wait for the judges instructions.

[MONX]

UPDATE:For those of you who dont want to read the whole saga a short(ish) synopsisNovember partner was sent home suspended without pay via a template letter.Two weeks later discipliary meeting due to be held but did not occur due to managment not attending (adverse weather).Two weeks later disciplinary meeting but not told outcome, promised within 48 hours.21st December letter rec partner sacked due to gross misconduct, given right to appeal.Next day appeal request sent to employer.Dec 30th letter rec giving appeal date as 4th Jan in Sheffield (120 mile round trip!).Jan 4th Appeal meeting attended and was given "an undertaking" to ensure outcome would be given by the close of business that week.21st Jan email rec at 10pm outlining the points raised in appeal meeting but no outcome.25th Jan letter rec apologising for no outcome and stating appeal had upheld disciplinary meetings decison to sack for gross misconduct.Ok so we have sent of the ET1 and on the closing date the respondants entered there ET3, before action and currently they are not interested in mediation via acas and just ignore any contact from them.We are arguing that it was unfair and unreasonable to suspend my partner for five weeks without pay because:1. although it states in his contract they can suspend without pay, they say that it is so that an investigation can take place - this didnt happen.2. the employers rules in contract state that it should take as short a time as possible - five weeks unreasonable.3. the employer as a matter of course suspend without pay as a knee jerk reaction confirmed by the introduction of the template letter.4. there is case law (shaky but relevant) that states suspension without pay is a disciplinary act in it self and that the acas guidelines should be followed to ensure that it is appropriate (each case taken on its own merit). Again template goes to our argument that it is never considered and suspension without pay is always the decision.5. as the first disciplinary meeting wasnt attended by managment due to adverse weather, my partners wages should have been reinstated because no further investigation was required (not that one took place anyway) and the further delay was due to bad weather and not related to his suspension.6. it was unfair and unreasonable for the employer to expect us to fund the travel to Sheffield after five weeks without pay and denied us the opportunity to request a reasonable venue due to time scales.

So that is the case in a nutshell. The tribunal itself is to be held on 4th July and as time is marching on i am wondering what I need to do to prepare for this. I am obviously wanting to rely on some of the documents I have mentioned, the main one the suspension without pay template as this goes to the argument of how they suspend willy nilly. I rang the tribunal service and they said that because it was only booked for an hour that a "bundle" wasnt required, he suggested making sure that there were copies for the defence and the judge and that should be ok. My question is should i write to the employer and ask them if we can agree what docs are to be used in evidence as this will stop them delaying the process further by saying that it was late disclosure of evidence?What do you think?

Edited May 18, 2011 by MONX

[MONX]

Apologies for the lack of spaces ....it seems my puter is having a bad day....cant seem to get it to work even if I edit the post.sorry