can they sack me? please help!

[shahill]

Yes it sounds that way to me too. My husband is literally just off the phone and he has made some enquiries and he has said that this is a load of tosh. Like you say Marie, it would only be a taxable benefit if the card where in THEIR name and THEY were paying the bill for me. But the card is MY name and I pay every bill, every month. Where i have business expenses i then claim that back from the company under the expenses policy and i pay for any additional personal expenses.

 

I will use this against them if they try to take this matter further, but the more time i spend investigating all of this it makes me feel like they are victimising me and trying to scare the life out of me (which they have succeeded in doing) If i am not sacked or disciplined then i am seriously considering raising a grievance against the way they have exaggerated and pursued this.

[papasmurf1cx]

Hi Shahill

 

The card is in your name?????????

 

Is this one of those cards that companies can promote and earn commission off?

 

Can't remember the name of the company, may be MBNA or HFC, but my wife and I had a 'union' credit card and they obtained commission for every one they persuaded their members to take out. Horrendous rate of interest as well. Could you tell us where you get the bills from?

 

Anyway, you see where I am coming from here, if they have no financial loss, in fact they are making money off of YOU perhaps??

 

I am sure you'll be on to it now.

[shahill]

Hi there papasmurf - i've never heard of anything like that before - i dont think i fall into this category!! My card is a mastercard from Barclaycard Commercial, the card is in my name, all bills come to me and statements are not sent to the company. They (apparantly) do random checks on checks by asking for copies of statements but i dont believe that (otherwise this would have came to light long before now given that i have been using the card since 2007!!) this only came to light when someone in HR picked up that i was on mat leave and that they had received notification from Barclaycard that i was late in making a payment. I suspect that this is what has got the ball rolling.

[papasmurf1cx]

Ok .... worth a shot though!! barclaycard commercial are still profiting from the transactions though, just wondered if you company had any interest in it.

[shahill]

Yes definetly worth a shot ill keep this one up my sleeve for sure

[shahill]

Hi there everyone. Just an update on whats been going on. I asked for the official notes to be updated to reflect that the manager leading the investigation also did not know how serious an issue this was but she has denied saying this and refused to amend the notes (no surprises there). I have been called to a formal conduct hearing which is taking place on Friday and i suspect they will sack me. I dont know what else i can add other than everything i said and all the evidence i submitted at the initial investigation meeting so i really dont know why they are calling me back other than to sack me, obviously if they were willing to accept my proposal to resolve the matter and my explanations then we wouldnt be goign to a conduct hearing. The outcome of the investigationg meeting was "becuase xxx has acknowledged there has been a breach, the reccomendation would be for the matter to be progressed via a gross misconduct hearing"

 

I have spoken with a solicitor who has told me to ring him if i am sacked and we will take it from there, but i am terrified for this meeting. I have no one who can come in with me, both union reps are off sick and the only other person i trust cannot get any childcare (she is also off on mat leave)

[mariefab]

Have they provided you with written answers to the questions you raised at the investigatory meeting?

[shahill]

Hello again! Thanks for coming back onto the thread - they refused to answer any of my questions and said it was only an investigtion at that stage and they would look to answer my questions at a later stage if appropriate.

Its really appauling, i feel sick that they are doing this to me!No one else has gone through this...

[mariefab]

I suggest that you send the following email (or something similar) to HR today:

 

At the investigatory meeting on (date) I asked a number of questions.

(name) contacted me later that day to inform me that my questions had been referred to HR who were not in a position to answer them at that stage. To date I have not received any answers.

For your convenience I'll repeat them below.

1. ................etc.

 

Please forward your answers as soon as you possibly can. I need this information to prepare for the disciplinary meeting on Friday 8th October.

[shahill]

Hi Marie, i am already concerned that they are refusing to amend my notes so i am trying to figure out how to word an email to them to say i am unhappy about that. How do we resolve an issue like that when i say something was said and the manager denies it? I wouldnt have written it down is she didnt say it!!!

Also, the report from the investigation meeting reads ""becuase xxx has acknowledged there has been a breach, the reccomendation would be for the matter to be progressed via a gross misconduct hearing" then the letter states "if the allegations against you are proven this amounts to gross misconduct and you could be dismissed". Am i within my rights to email them and ask what allegations they are trying to prove? I have already admitted and apologised and explained my actions, so there is nothing to prove!!

The Gross Misconduct policy reads "we will try to adhere to the guidelines set out in this policy but may chose to amend / omit sections at our absolute discretion..." it then goes on to say "we would not normally dismiss an employee without having issued a prior warner but it cases of gross misconduct a dismissal may be appropriate"

So they have covered themselves from all angels!!!!

They are refusing to tell me if anyone else is being punished but i know they are not as i have emails from a friend who also used her card and she confirmed nothing was said to her!

[shahill]

I am so angry my whole 2 weeks have been spent in front of this computer, i am missing out on time i should be enjoying with my 7 month old little girl. This is so wrong, fair enough if everyone had to go through this process but its only me!

[Surfer01]

In a worse case scenario perhaps the company are looking at it from a fraudlent use of card in which case they may have every right to dismiss you as the card was not being used for the company while you were on maternity leave and they never gave permission for it to used for personal use. Although you paid it up every month you had a financial benefit of using the card for personal use.

It seems as if you have your head screwed on right and have all the ammunition to fight any accusations, wait until they make specific accusations and the counter the arguments with your ammunition one at a time. You could even demand that another meeting is held as you were not given any information about the reason for the meeting on Friday. Remember you need to tread carefully and think it through before answering questions. Good luck.

[shahill]

Hi there i totally agree and they probably will go down the "fraud use of card" route - but surely if they do they need to haul in everyone who used their card for personal use? Surely they cant only dismiss 1 person if many others have done the same thing? Even if those people had a direct debit in place its either acceptable or its not acceptable to use your card for personal use so how can they treat me differetnly from anyone else? It seems so unfair and inconsistent!

I know the reason they are calling me in on Friday - its for a formal conduct hearing and the outcome will probably be dismissal. But i am confused because the letter says "if the alegations are proven then this amounts to gross misconduct and you could be dismissed" but they KNOW i have used the card for personal use which is why they are calling me in... i attended an initial investigation and i answered each and every issue they had so how can they say ".. if the allegations are proven"... the issues is, yes, i like many others, used my card for personal use but are they going to haul me over the coals for it but give every one else a gentle reminder via email?? That seems so wrong!!

[mariefab]

Firstly any 'he said, she said, I said' stuff is impossible to prove. This is why we've been encouraging you to document everything you can by way of a written statement, list of questions etc.

 

As for your concerns about the things they've written about the breaches/allegations; this is just your employer's (HR) own documentation of the process. The breaches and the allegations are the same thing. It's good practice for them to inform you if the outcome could be dismissal.

If you can get a written admission from them (maybe ask that it's written into the minutes during the disciplinary meeting) that others have committed any of these breaches and are not being disciplined that would be good. If they refuse to answer or say that they have not investigated other peoples card use try to get that written down too.

 

Do you know any other employees who would be prepared to give you a statement stating that, before they received the recent email reminder, they used their card for personal items, had no ddm or ever paid late?

If so, I suggest that you gather as many of these as possible today and take them with you tomorrow.

 

Also, print off and take the HMRC guidance that honeybee posted for you earlier to show that HR gave you, and the manager holding the investigatory meeting, incorrect information that caused you concern that you could be in trouble with HMRC.

 

Did your friend who's also on maternity leave receive the reminder email?

[mariefab]

Sorry, I missed this important point earlier.

 

You have the statutory right to be accompanied at a disciplinary hearing by a work colleague or a union rep.

 

As both of your union reps are off sick at present; I think that you should email and ask to postpone the disciplinary hearing until one of them is available to attend. I don't see how they can refuse this request.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1999/26/section/10

Edited October 7, 2010 by mariefab
adding link to Employment Relations Act 1999

[shahill]

Hi Marie i did take notes and i wrote down exactly what she said but when i submitted my notes and said that there was a conflict between my notes and her notes that is when she denied saying it.

I know of at least 2 people who used their card for personal use but i would be really scared to ask them to give me a written statement - 1st off i think they would be worried as i am being called to gross misconduct that if they admitted it they too might be up for gross misconduct so im worried they wouldnt agree to it.

I am trying to get another friend to accompany me and if she cant then i will postpone. Ill let you know how i get on today. Thanks for your reply

[mariefab]

Is there a reason why you don't want either of the union reps. to accompany you?

[shahill]

No not at all, sorry i should have explained that... i emailed one of the union reps yesterday (i have his home email) and he said that the unite restrict their representation to union members who pay a fee and who have been a member for a few months. I am not a union member, but one of my friends suggested the union rep might still be able to come in with me even if not on formal union business, just as a colleague. The union rep who is off sick is going to call me at home today to give me some advice and he kindly offers to accompany me then i will postpone the meeting until he is back but if he cant accompany me then... i dont know!!! Part of me wants to get it over and done with.. this is absolute torture

[mariefab]

On what date did you receive notification of tomorrow's disciplinary meeting?

[shahill]

One of the managers called me on Monday and said i was being invited to attend the meeting. She said "i know we need to give you 5 days notice but i also know your desperate to get things moving so are you happy that the meeting proceeds on Friday and we omit the 5 days notice and i will send you the pack today?" I said yes and the pack attived in the post yesterday, she did give me the option of having the meeting at a later day but at the time i just though i really want this over with, i couldnt go another weekend not knowing. This has been hell for me and my husband

[mariefab]

OK

But the 'pack' doesn't include the answers to your questions. They said that they'd answer them if things went further than the investigation and they haven't done so.

Also you haven't had sufficient time to arrange to be accompanied.

You are much more likely to get a favourable result after the disciplinary meeting if you are fully prepared and have someone in your corner making notes at the meeting.

 

Otherwise you could be asking your questions all over again at the meeting, which they may or may not answer, and you'll be in the same situation as before when it comes to the only minutes available being created by the employer.

If things go badly, you'll then have a further period of stress extending through the appeal.

 

I understand that you want it to be over and done with but you need to be sure that you won't later regret delaying things until you are ready.

[SWIS]

I hope unlike many other threads on here we get an update.

[shahill]

I hope unlike many other threads on here we get an update.

 

 

Hi there thanks for your message i will definitely provide an update. The help and advice i have received from this forum has been invaluable.

I postponed my meeting following advice from the lovely mariefab so the meeting is now taking place on Wednesday.

I seriously hope the outcome is not my dismissal but i will be ready and waiting for them to try it... they dont know who they are messing with now!!!

[honeybee13]

Hello again Shahill and thank you for the update.

 

Fingers crossed for tomorrow [is that the right Wednesday?] and please come back to us whatever happens. You're in good hands with Mariefab.

 

HB x

[papasmurf1cx]

Hi Shahil

 

You may shortly need this piece of legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2194/made

 

If you feel that Sex Discrimination is an issue then you can send your employer a questionnaire asking them questions to determine whether they have broken to law. They are required to answer open and honestly (they never do as that would mean they get taken to the ET so tend to be evasive and lie) so the questioner (you) can make a judgement as to whether they should be taken to the ET.

 

This is similar to the old procedure but the Equality Act 2010 is so new I don't know is there are any changes to the new system. Perhaps the lawyers on here can help as to procedure?