Advice regarding employment

[Allwood]

Need some advice from employment guru on what constitute a grievance submitted in the workplace.

A lengthy letter was submitted by employee with relevant points that employer was not complying in accordance with in relation in DDA. Employer held a meeting with employee and rep, not everything in letter was discuss at meeting but the main one about making minor adjustment was discuss. Also notes were taken by employer at meeting and all signed the notes, would that letter be classes as a grievance

[Allwood]

Need some advice from employment guru on what constitute a grievance submitted in the workplace.

A lengthy letter was submitted by employee with relevant points that employer was not complying in accordance with in relation in DDA. Employer held a meeting with employee and rep, not everything in letter was discuss at meeting but the main one about making minor adjustment was discuss. Also notes were taken by employer at meeting and all signed the notes, would that letter be classes as a grievance

[honeybee13]

Hi Allwood. Did the letter state it was a grievance as such?

 

HB

[papasmurf1cx]

Many Grievances are grievances but are never actually stated as such. You need to look at the company grievance Policy, which should have 3 stages normally.

 

 

Stage 1 is normally an introductory stage and dealt with verbally and informally and the word grievance is never mentioned just 'problem' or 'I don't agree' or something like that. The immediate supervisor normally sorts it out and that is the end of it.

 

Stage 2 is enacted when stage 1 does not work. The matter can be put up to the next level supervisor when the initial supervisor can't resolve it. It can be done in writing and is normally done in writing. Stage 1 need not be involved if the situation is so serious that it needs to go straight into stage 2. I don't think the word 'grievance' need be used if the context of the letter is such that the company management realise that this falls within the context of their Grievance Policy. The facts fit the policy therefore and is dealt with as a stage 2 grievance then it is a stage 2 grievance.

 

Stage 3 is the appeal to that stage 2 decision and normally gets into the higher reaches of management.

 

The fact that notes were taken and signed by all present would suggest that the company were treating it as a stage 2 grievance.

 

What's the problem?

[Allwood]

Thanks Papasmurf1cs and HB,

Long story and hope you will bear with me. Employee been to company OH’s twice once in 2007 and again 2008 both reports recommended minor adjustments for employee due to an underlying medical condition Employer ignored there instruction and indeed treated employee far less favorable than able body employees. First grievance went to employer in 2007 and company admitted that they did not deal with the return to work after an accident. However the rest of their findings were completely wrong. Employee appeal and again this was partially upheld but again employer did not make any minor adjustments for employee. In the findings of appeal some of the information there was completely untrue.

 

Employee condition was made worse due to no minor adjustment been made by employer. Employee is part time and is excluded from benefits that other employees that have been granted to other employees, these benefits paid to some employees are carer leave and paid bereavement leave as well as reduced hrs back to work term.

Employee had time off during the last 6 months due to conditions and other illness. Employer lump all illness together and as such trigger a disciplinary toward employee.

 

Employee GP said twice issue a Fitness for Work certificate. The first certificate that minor adjustment should be made for employee when that did not happen employee GP issued another Fitness for Work urging for Minor Adjustments to be made and also gave employee reduced hrs back to work for 3 months. When employee gave employee the second certificate from GP they did not want to implement the reduced hrs and wanted to have a meeting first regarding the absence and implied that a capability would be done by employer. That was when employee wrote a letter to company stating that no minor adjustments were made in accordance the DDA.

Employer called a meeting and it was suggested at that meeting by the manager that Access to Work should be called and the employee should arrange it. Employee arranges this and gave the manager name to AtW person for contact as this as needed by AtW to speak to manager. Employee gave all details to employer and told them day and time of AtW person calling to make the assessment in the workplace. On the morning of the AtW assessment was to be done, employee was told that he would be moving another department.

 

AtW called and no manager was available to see her as the manager who requested this was away for that day, therefore other personnel stood in for that manager. The AtW person was not informed that there would be nobody available to see her on that day so she called to make the assessment and after waiting for an hr she finally got to do the assessment as other personnel that stood in for manager would not let AtW person take a photo of employee working condition and also the employee did not know the duties expected on the new floor.

AtW needed to know this information to make assessment. Eventually another manager came to assistance and knew of the AtW as it had been done before for another employee and AtW got permission to take a photo of employees working conditions.

 

Employee raised lots of other issues but these were not discussed at meetings but have put them again in another letter to manager.

 

Sorry for such a long post and hope it makes sense.

[papasmurf1cx]

Allwood.... can we ask you what your relationship is with employee with all the problems and why she is not posting herself?

 

Next, in brief, there were OLD DDA / grievances which were not fully implemented. When GP and the DWP AtW advisor get involved the employer decides unilaterally to change her job and working position to elsewhere in the company, correct?

 

The issues that the employee has raised have now been submitted as another grievance. Is that correct?

 

Has the employee got union support or access to a legal protection Insurance so an employment lawyer can get involved at some stage?

 

It makes sense just about, we just need to be clear as to what you are trying to do for her.

[Allwood]

Allwood.... can we ask you what your relationship is with employee with all the problems and why she is not posting herself?

The person is not computer literate and is a very good friend of mine. I would like to give her as much information as possible so she can make an informed decision on what to do.

Next, in brief, there were OLD DDA / grievances which were not fully implemented. When GP and the DWP AtW advisor get involved the employer decides unilaterally to change her job and working position to elsewhere in the company, correct?

Adjustments were not implemented at all therefore GP issued a Fitness for Work (as they are now called) with a week to make changes but this did not happen. After about a month has passed and nothing happened went back to GP again and another certificate was issues and this time hrs reduced and made a strong suggestion for adjustments to no avail.

The issues that the employee has raised have now been submitted as another grievance. Is that correct?

I feel that when manager was told at meeting that AtW would be calling to make an assessment as she had suggest at a previous meeting and when told this was going to take place the manager was very dismissive. She then suggested that she would have word with mangers on other floor for a moved. My friend had been asking to move there for over a year. Manager said that she would contact friend at home to advise what manager suggested on the other floor but of course this did not happened. Friend was told on the morning on the day when the assessment was going to take place the move was going take place the following week that was all my friend was not told what the duties would be there. Also my friend did not know if the manager at the meeting that was away that particular day had contacted the AtW to advised them of this but it seems that they the manager did not have the decency to do that.

My friend submitted further letter about this and they have been ignored.

Has the employee got union support or access to a legal protection Insurance so an employment lawyer can get involved at some stage?

Friend got union support but the union is worse than useless they say that what has happened is only a slightly concern. Been advising my friend to take out insurance but I think it maybe too late for than now. Also union feels that they have been great because they got all the absence deleted but they should not have been lumped together in the first place. Illness regarding disability should be log separately compared to illness not related to a disability.

 

It makes sense just about, we just need to be clear as to what you are trying to do for her.

 

Hope the above reads OK.

[papasmurf1cx]

Ok so now we wait to see what the employer's response is to the latest letter. I don't think it is too late to get insurance. I would rather have insurance than the union because you are in control not the union. Too many hurdles to jump GET THE INSURANCE that is really important.

[Allwood]

Ok so now we wait to see what the employer's response is to the latest letter. I don't think it is too late to get insurance. I would rather have insurance than the union because you are in control not the union. Too many hurdles to jump GET THE INSURANCE that is really important.

You so right papasmurf1cx, I will advise this stronly as union do not recognised Disablility and the employers knows this as well, therefore, they will continue to abuse this aspect of the law.

[honeybee13]

Allwood hello again. Have you considered contacting the EHRC as I suggested? I know they have a helpline and when I used it for a blind friend they were very helpful. One would hope they're the experts on disability.

 

My best, HB

[Allwood]

Thank HB, I have checked their site out and will see if it will be OK to contact them..

[honeybee13]

I agree Allwood, you might find that useful.

 

My best, HB

[Allwood]

One further question, a union rep attends meetings and has been given all literature regarding what has happened to an employee regarding a disability that an employer refused to acknowledg. The member writes to the rep and asks a direct question, such as in his opinion is the employer being discriminatory toward his member, can a union rep ignores that question and refuses to answer it.

[papasmurf1cx]

Sorry Alwood your style of writing makes it difficult for us to understand the question. Please try and explain it with reference to the actual story not in the third person way you write.

[honeybee13]

I'm sorry Allwood, I have to agree with papasmurf. I'm really confused about who we're advising and which questions are current and which are hypothetical.

 

Have you got many threads running about this? If you have, it might make it easier for us employment caggers if you merge them.

 

My best, HB

[Allwood]

Thanks for the effort, but it is not mandatory to reply to a question, if you do not understand the question then please just ignore it.8)

[honeybee13]

So you don't mind if you don't get any help then? That makes posting a bit pointless, doesn't it?

 

HB

[Allwood]

Why should I mind, that you and another poster are confused about my post, I do not know what you mean, there are lots of other posters on here that may not be confused about a post, therefore I do not think it is pointless for anyone posting on here just because you and an other poster cannot decipher it.

 

I got in response to the same question/ post from another board on the net, which maybe helpful for other posters on here.

 

This was my question

One further question, a union rep attends meetings and has been given all literature regarding what has happened to an employee regarding a disability that an employer refused to acknowledg. The member writes to the rep and asks a direct question, such as in his opinion is the employer being discriminatory toward his member, can a union rep ignores that question and refuses to answer it

 

This is the reply

no, because they are neither a judge nor the chair of an ET - they do not have the authority to say decisively "yes" or "no." IMHO they would be foolish to give you an answer.

 

Individuals may offer opinions, but discrimination is rarely cut and dried - and the union rep's opinion may differ from people with real decision making power.

 

They should, however, be able to advise you on the process.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Allwood

[honeybee13]

Allwood, are you sure you asked the other forum the same question you asked us?

 

HB

[Sidewinder]

This thread sadly seems to be going nowhere.

 

Allwood. In your original post, you asked what constituted a grievance. The response (correctly) is that a grievance, although it is customary to spell out that the employer should consider this a Formal matter, does not specifically have to delare itself in such a way as to be valid. The grievance process would normally involve the matter being raised by the employee, a meeting held to discuss, a decision from the employer and a right of appeal against that decision. From that perspective, then the answer to the question you raised initially would be 'yes'.

 

I do have to agree with PS and HB that it is not always easy to understand exacly what question you are asking, or what specific advice that you need. Whilst I take on board the point that some posters may well be able to decipher things and respond, it is also true that you will receive a broader response from simple bullet point type questions. I am afraid that I too have looked at this thread and wandered away again on more than one occasion!

 

As far as I can see it, your friend has what appear to be genuine DDA related concerns which have not been addressed by the employer and OH. That being the case, your friend is best advised to submit a formal grievance (heading the letter as a Formal Grievance to avoid misunderstanding) and clearly list the points that he/she feels are not being addressed. This should be done with clear reference to the provisions of the DDA (so research it well) and medical opinion. If the employer's response is not satisfactory and can be appealed on the basis of specific points not being answered or misconstrued, then exercise that right.

 

Beyond the grievance and appeal process, it really becomes a matter of how viable it is to push the case to an ET. Your opinion of Unions is well documented and possibly in your personal experience, well founded, but they do exist for a purpose, and are there to serve members interests. If they are failing in that fundamental purpose, then that is a matter of complaint to the Union concerned. It may well be that the DDA is so hugely a matter of interpretation that can only be decided by an ET, that they have little scope to act further, for whilst your friend may feel aggrieved they can see no clear case to answer on the part of the employer?

 

Your posts on MSE do not appear to ask the same questions as the ones on here, or at least pose them in different ways, so you may well find that opinions differ. That, I'm afraid is the nature of internet forums.

[mariefab]

It might be a good idea to establish whether your friend's 'underlying medical condition' definitely qualifies as a disability for the purpose of any potential DDA protection because many medical conditions don't.

 

Just because a GP or OH doctor suggests/recommends adjustments to an employer it doesn't necessarily mean that the employee has a DDA protected disability.

If it turns out that your friend's medical condition isn't covered then the union rep deserve a big pat on the back for managing to get the absence deleted.

 

Even if the employee's medical condition is covered then there are other factors (practicality, cost etc) to be taken into consideration to determine whether the desired adjustment is 'reasonable'.