Is an ECN the same as a PCN???

[miss_squeezy77]

I was recently issued an Excess Charge Notice by Chester City Council under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, for parking in a designated parking place for more than 10 minutes without a valid permit.

 

My first question is: Is a Penalty Charge Notice the same as an Excess Charge Notice? Does it come under the same points of law ie must contain both date of issue and date of contravention etc....

 

I don't have a scanner, but have typed out the ticket below - any advice is most welcome!

 

Chester City Council

Excess Charge Notice

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

 

Excess Charge Notice Number: CSxxxxx

Vehicle Registration Number: Vxxxx

Make: Rover

Your vehicle was first observed at 11.07 parked in a designated parking place in Cuppin Street

On 11/08/2006 at 11.07

By parking attendant No: 354

It was again observed at 11.30 and the vehicle was left without displaying a valid Permit

 

AN EXCESS CHARGE OF £40.00 IS NOW PAYABLE WITHIN 14 DAYS FROM THE ISSUE OF THIS NOTICE. FAILURE TO PAY MAY RESULT IN LEGAL PROCEEDINGS.

THE DRIVER OF THE VEHICLE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYMENT OF THE EXCESS CHARGE. (I thought it was the owner / rk who is responsible?)

 

It is an offence under Section 47(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 for the driver of a vehicle to fail to pay this charge. The penalty on conviction is a fine of up to £500. It is also an offence under Section 46(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to contravene the provisions of the Council's relevant Residents and Designated Parking Places Order.

 

On the back it says:

DO NOT IGNORE THIS EXCESS CHARGE NOTICE

Payment of this Notice must be received within 14 days of the issue date.

 

It then gives details on how to pay and how to appeal. The tear-off payment slip at the bottom doesn't have an issue date on it and nowhere does it say anything about what happens if you don't pay.

 

I think there are several points I can dispute the ECN on but would welcome any guidance.....

[jet_force_juno]

see this thread first...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-wardens/27493-anybody-pick-holes.html

[miss_squeezy77]

thanks jet force - had already seen your posts on that thread, very interesting reading!

 

Can anybody shed any light on whether the ECN is the same as a PCN?

[jet_force_juno]

ha ha no it is not the same. A PCN is issued by a council that has decriminalised parking under the 1991 RTA.

An ECN is any ticket issued by a Council which is operating under the 1984 RTA.

Similar but not the same.

If you have an ECN and the ECN refers to any fixed time period, either for payment, or for appeal and the ECN does not have a "date of issue" or "date of offence" then contest the tickets!

The date of the offence is not the date of the notice even if, in most cases, the ECN will be issued on the same day as the offence. A real possibility of prejudice arises from potential uncertainty as to when the periods for payment begin and end.

I am contesting six tickets on this basis.....

[miss_squeezy77]

Thank you! six tickets?! go for it!

 

Are there any template letters for these situations the same as there are for the bank charges?

[jet_force_juno]

i am doing one now, gimmme a few more mins

[jet_force_juno]

ok, letter done, see the other thread

[dw190]

Thank you! six tickets?! go for it!

 

Are there any template letters for these situations the same as there are for the bank charges?

 

Check the ticket if there is a requirement as to how to request a hearing by the Court.

 

By the time you get a hearing the Judgement of Mr Justice Jackson in Mses & barnet should be available. PCN or ECN will still have to follow the Judgement of the Dates Issues as they both rely on them.

[miss_squeezy77]

No details about how to take it to court....

 

Thanks jet force for the template letter, looks good! What are ppls opinions about the fact that the ticket states the driver must pay the charge, not the registered keeper or owner? Is this something that is only covered by the 1991 act?

[miss_squeezy77]

Have sent the following to the council (thanks to jet force for parts of it!)

 

Dear Sir,

 

RE: PARKING FINES CS19001811 and CS21004203 - Vehicle Reg V954 HVC

 

I write regarding the above Excess Charge Notices which I believe are unlawfully worded. As such, a real possibility of prejudice arises from potential uncertainty as to when the periods for payment and appeal begin and end.

 

There is considerable case law in this country at present regarding the wording of parking tickets. Many councils that operate parking regimes are now finding they have issued unlawful tickets for considerable periods of time. The public have been blissfully unaware that for years, Councils have been issuing tickets that are not enforceable. Part of the problem is that the Councils themselves are not actually aware of their legal responsibilities.

 

I understand that Chester City Council does not have DPE powers, and is thus still operating under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as opposed to the 1991 Act.

 

The Department of Transport have advised that whilst there are two separate acts, the requirements for the wording of tickets is essentially the same. Whether the ticket is a PCN, or an ECN, the tickets must clearly state the date and time that an offence or contravention occurred as well as the date and time the ticket were issued. This allows the owner to:

 

a) contest the validity of the ticket based on the date and time of the offence

b) have absolute certainty of the exact time frame for payment or appeal

 

The tickets issued by Chester City Council do not contain any of the above information. They do not show clearly a “date of the offence”, nor a “date of issue”.

 

The front of the tickets actually state:

 

"AN EXCESS CHARGE OF £40.00 IS NOW PAYABLE WITHIN 14 DAYS FROM THE ISSUE OF THIS NOTICE."

 

Moving on to the back of the ticket we have:

 

"Payment of this Notice must be received within 14 days of the issue date"

 

Without a date of issue clearly written on your tickets, I cannot be sure of the time frame for appeal or payment. Furthermore, there is nothing on the ticket which indicates the time frame for an appeal - and, given that there is no date of issue, would not serve its purpose even if it were printed.

 

In addition, I believe that it is the owner or registered keeper's duty to pay the excess not the driver, under the 1984 Act, as stated on your tickets.

I note that Chester City Council and Cheshire County Council are intending to apply to the Secretary of State to introduce decriminalised parking. I would suggest that the wording on these tickets is reviewed before this system is introduced, otherwise the councils will find themselves continuing to issue unlawful tickets.

I request that Chester City Council revoke these tickets issued to me with immediate effect. Furthermore the Council should consider re-wording the tickets before any concerns over their validity becomes public knowledge.

[jet_force_juno]

Hmmm, yes interesting point about the "driver" and not the "owner". Presumably if you were not the "driver" the Council would be entitled to know who the "driver" was. Unless you wanted to pass the fines on to someone else you would have to say that you did not know who the driver was at the time. But I dont see that holding up very well!

 

Stick to the issue of the date of issue and date of offence. As previously said the final outcome of moses vs barnet should nail this.

 

Good luck with your case, they have no legs to stand on.

[miss_squeezy77]

Thank you for all your help jet force....

 

The point about the driver thingy was just me being pedantic - ie if they want to issue tickets quoting Acts of law then they must ensure they are complying with all aspects of the Act including the wording on their tickets.

[jet_force_juno]

ha ha yeah I know, the reason we are all here is because people AREN'T following the law, right?

 

I will keep the forum updated on what happens with the tickets!

[miss_squeezy77]

Sent the above as an email on Sunday - haven't had a response yet.....

[miss_squeezy77]

Does anyone have any comments / advice re the response I've had.....

 

Thank you for your email.

I have considered your appeal but I am satisfied the parking tickets should not be cancelled.

Unfortunately the information you provided in your appeal is incorrect. Firstly, the issue regarding the notification of offence date and issue date only refers to the Road Traffic Act 1991 which can be applied to moving traffic offences.

Secondly, under Section 35A of the Road Traffic Act 1984 it is an offence for the driver of a vehicle to fail to pay an Excess Charge Notice.

Thirdly, whilst Chester City Council welcomes any appeals against Excess Charge Notices, (as stated on the reverse of the ticket), it is not compulsory, under the Road Traffic Act 1984, for any such process to apply.

Please pay each £40 parking ticket within 7 days from the above date.

[miss_squeezy77]

Anyone? ;-)

[dw190]

Does anyone have any comments / advice re the response I've had.....

 

Thank you for your email.

 

I have considered your appeal but I am satisfied the parking tickets should not be cancelled.

 

Unfortunately the information you provided in your appeal is incorrect. Firstly, the issue regarding the notification of offence date and issue date only refers to the Road Traffic Act 1991 which can be applied to moving traffic offences.

 

Secondly, under Section 35A of the Road Traffic Act 1984 it is an offence for the driver of a vehicle to fail to pay an Excess Charge Notice.

 

Thirdly, whilst Chester City Council welcomes any appeals against Excess Charge Notices, (as stated on the reverse of the ticket), it is not compulsory, under the Road Traffic Act 1984, for any such process to apply.

 

Please pay each £40 parking ticket within 7 days from the above date.

 

This is very interesting.

 

Lets ay the driver did not receive the ticket. ie. it was removed from the vehicle. Does this offence require the Owner/RK to provide the details of the driver?

 

There must be a right to challenge either by appeal or by the right to have the matter heard before a court. If not then the Bill of Rights would apply.

[Rob S]

Thirdly, whilst Chester City Council welcomes any appeals against Excess Charge Notices, (as stated on the reverse of the ticket), it is not compulsory, under the Road Traffic Act 1984, for any such process to apply.

 

Please pay each £40 parking ticket within 7 days from the above date.

 

So, why list details of how to appeal on the ticket if they have no intention of even allowing an appeals process in the first instance should someone decide to appeal??? What a crazy set up!!

[clarklorra]

can any one help with letter of appeal to NPAS against getting a penalty charge when using a disabled permit issued in Scotland. We do not have the clock system up here and until I got this charge knew nothing about them. HELP!