Massive firm dismiss my baby!!!

[lisamellor]

how did the interview go??

 

fingers crossed and all!!

 

let us know.

 

lisaxx

[hagenuk]

I posted this some time ago in response to a similar situation. If you need any further help then just ask.

 

These are the things that should have happened, in this order.

 

1. She should have known in advance the nature of the complaint against her and that she is to be invited to a disciplinary meeting.

 

2. She should have been informed that that she has the right to be accompanied at the disciplinary meeting by a friend or colleague, as well as the date, time and venue of the meeting. The Manager holding the meeting should also have a colleague in attendance in order to take notes of the meeting.

 

3. At the meeting, she should have been told the nature of the complaint and, where necessary, evidence should be produced, documents etc. or witnesses to back up the complaint. Further, she should have been allowed to state her case and, where there are witnesses, been allowed to question them.

 

At the conclusion of the meeting, she should have been advised of the outcome and any disciplinary action to be taken against her. This should be confirmed in writing in all cases. She should have been told what will be expected by way of any improvement, what help or further training will be given and the consequences of any further failure or misconduct.

 

From the company's point of view this stage of disciplinary action is the most important one, as it is the best opportunity to persuade the employee that her behaviour or actions need to change. The meeting must not be one sided, as the whole point of formalising it is to ensure that the employee has her say. Her witness is there only to observe and this should be explained at the outset of the meeting.

 

The company must consider the validity of what the employee is saying and, if necessary, adjourn the meeting to check the facts or consider her explanation.

 

A thorough investigation must always be carried out, even if at first sight the process seems to be cut and dried. This is a vital point as often a Tribunal is lost not on whether or not it was right to dismiss the employee, but on the fair treatment of the individual during the process. If necessary, the best course of action is to suspend an employee on full pay whilst an investigation is being carried out, in order that all the facts are available at the time of the disciplinary meeting.

 

Following the investigation and disciplinary meeting, the company may decide to take further disciplinary action.

 

 

Verbal Warning

 

This would be given for a first minor breach of discipline or minor infringement of rules. Whilst there are no hard and fast rules as to the length of time a warning should remain ‘live’, as a guide a Verbal Warning would remain on file for up to 6 months.

 

 

Written Warning

 

In cases of serious misconduct, poor performance or on second breaches, a Written Warning would be issued. It should state clearly what improvement is required, what training or assistance will be given to help achieve this and the consequences of further misconduct or poor performance. Once a Written Warning has been given, the employee may become liable to suspension or dismissal following further misconduct.

 

It is important to remember that the type of misconduct which is the subject of further disciplinary action must be the same or similar as the first situation. For example if someone has been given a Written Warning for poor timekeeping, they cannot receive a Final Written warning for using incorrect till procedures, as the two are not related. The incorrect till procedures would start off a second round of disciplinary action, and so it is feasible for an employee to have two Written Warnings, each for different offences.

 

Normally, a Written Warning would remain on file for up to 18 months.

 

 

Final Written Warning

 

When there is no improvement in the conduct or performance or in cases of a third occasion on which a breach of discipline or infringement of the rules occurs, a Final Written Warning should be given.

 

A Final Written Warning can also be given for a first offence if it is deemed to be sufficiently serious. In this situation it would be called a First and Final Written Warning. A situation which would merit this type of action would be swearing at a customer, or damaging horseplay, or a more serious breach of procedure. Again it should state the improvement that is required and detail the consequences of further or more serious breaches.

 

Further or more serious breaches of discipline or infringement of rules following a Final Written or First and Final Written Warning can lead to dismissal with notice. Like the Written Warning, a Final Written or First and Final Written Warning should remain on file for no more than 18 months.

 

Dismissal

 

Dismissal with notice would result from disciplinary action having been followed through each of the stages mentioned above.

 

Situations of Gross Misconduct can lead to Summary Dismissal (Dismissal without notice). It is difficult to quote situations whereby a Summary Dismissal can occur, because one person’s act of serious misconduct can be another’s Written Warning. However, fighting, theft, falsification of documents such as time sheets, unauthorised disclosure of company information or drunkenness are the sorts of offences which could result in a summary dismissal.

 

 

If the company has not followed this course of action then I would suggest that you will be successful in bringing a case of wrongful dismissal against them.

 

It is important to decide what you want and state quite clearly that you intend to take further action against the company if your wishes in this regard are not heeded.

 

 

I think that you should have a case for wrongful dismissal here rather than unfair dismissal. Wrongful Dismissal should not be confused with Unfair Dismissal,

 

Wrongful Dismissal is based on contract law. Any claim for Wrongful Dismissal will therefore mean looking at the employee's employment contract to see if the employer has broken the contract.

 

 

The most common breach is where the employee is dismissed without notice or the notice given is too short. Obviously either party can end the employment relationship if they give the necessary notice. This will either be the legal minimum or what is stated in the employee's contract.

 

 

However, the employer can justify dismissing the employee without notice (Summary Dismissal) if the employee commits a serious breach of the contract, for example theft. The employer does not have to have proof of the theft, suspicion is enough. The employer can also rely on evidence that is only found after the dismissal.

 

 

Another example of wrongful dismissal is a failure by the employer to follow a contractual disciplinary procedure.

 

 

Wrongful dismissal claims can be brought in the Employment Tribunal, county court or High Court depending on the value of the claim.

[dolly]

I just wanted to add a big hug for your daughter...and to say that should she go down the tribunal route, many household insurance policies actually cover solicitors fees etc...I know ours did when my husband was sacked for no reason (constructive dismissal, which he won).

[Boobaby]

Hi all - thanks to everyone. I am, as I said previously so glad that I posted this thread!!!

Quick update:

1. Letter of dsimissal received 6.09.06 -dated 01.09.06 but posted on 05.09.06 (mentioned that in the appeal). Three lines saying

"This is confirming our decision to terminate your employment with THE FIRM (that has an eerie sound to it!!) as discussed with you this decision was taken in light of concerns about your performance (what concerns??) within your role, which had been discussed with you on previous occasions (when, with whom and where's the evidence??). I would be grateful if you could return - blah, blah. We are sorry that we have reached this decision and wish you well in your career.. (yeh right!!)

2. Appeal done and sent and to be honest it contained most of what hagenuk said but we also included that there was no mention of the appeals process - so watch this space.

3. Job interview went well, through to next round, not sure now if she wants to stay in this field but keeping options open?

Once more thanks all will keep you posted.

Boo & baby

[callumsgran]

Fingers crossed for baby, bless her! i know how you are both feeling as i have had similar situations to both of yours recently! so big hugs and best wishes to the both of you.

[callumsgran]

flaming heck, ive just read that back and there's 3 both's in there lol

[Tinkerbelle]

Just came across this and I'm shocked at the treatment your baby has received. I have no practical advice to offer unfortunately, but I am sending hugs and good thoughts your way.

 

Tinkie x

[Boobaby]

Thanks Tink!!!

[TaylorMade]

Glad to hear that a direction has been chosen and progress is being made. All the best of luck to her in the next round of interviews.

 

Looking through the recent posts, I think it's time to introduce a concept we have on another forum:

 

{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}

 

(group hug )

[Surfer01]

The company does not have a leg to stand on if taken to task because they never followed simple procedures. I strongly suggest she contests it and puits in a claim otherwise the enxt company will do exactly the same.

I am South African and we detested Unions because of all the strikes however when we moved over here we realised why people went on strike and that was because of poor management and the way they treated people.

Nail them!

[Letterwriter]

The Big 4 are usually more subtle in their methods of providing 'negative feedback' to employees (whether justified or not).

 

In my 5 years with one firm, I have seen some good people pushed out because they didnt quite conform to the ways of the dept they were in or didnt fit in with the cliques most depts develop. They were simply treated badly (publicly) until they 'took the hint' and left.

 

I dont know anyone in a Big 4 firm who is in a Union and I think it would be frowned upon if anyone were to join one. It simply isn't the 'done thing'. We are, of course, members of our professional bodies, but they are really there to look after the 'profession' as opposed to help with personal issues an individual may have.

 

All in all - lots of people apply to the Big 4, far fewer get in. Many of those who get in find it isnt the dream job they thought it might be. These firms are hugely ambitious and, as their assets are their people, they drive them very hard so the firm succeeds. At the moment, the Big 4 see 20% pa growth as a minimum so they are driving their staff hard to get it.

 

The things I have seen done to staff in my 5 years are nothing compared to what has happened to your daughter and I am disgusted by it. I am also surprised - These firms have large HR depts and, given they work in a regulated/legislated environment, are usually very conscious of legislation etc

 

I just hope your daughter gets a win at a tribunal and succeeds in getting a new job - one she enjoys and with a good employer.

 

Let us know how you get on.

[angewes]

Hi Boo,

 

I was just browsing when i came across your thread. Not anything of value to add except - good luck to you both. I wish I'd had a mum like you with some of my(bullying, poor managment, EO) similar troubles in the past. To re-emphasise an earlier comment as good advice to your daughter - write everything down, even if it seems insignificant at the time. It's amazing sometimes how things bizarrely slot together when you look back, but didn't raise an eyebrow at the time. That's when you can hit them with the 'facts' and expose how, although they think they have power over you, it's the good, just and honest people who will win in the end (sounds soppy, but really, even if it's only the moral victory).

 

Right, having looked back and seen how sad I sound...doh! I'll leave it there.

 

I really hope, in time, she rises above it all and uses it, as experience, to thrive from and to ensure that it doesn't happen again to her, or anyone who ends up working for her, in the future.

 

Give 'em hell.

 

Ange

[sleepz]

This is a bit unrelated, but a friend of mine (who is also an accountant) got a job down in Derby for Network Rail (I think they were called). At the time he lived in Glasgow, but was offered a relocation bonus / incentive thing so he could get down there, they paid for a couple of months rent untill he found his own place, and paid to move all his stuff down etc.

I think he was there for about a year when he was sacked, for no reason he says, they then asked hom for all the relocation money back. He said no, and ended up suing them for wrongful dismissal ... he won, he doesn't have to pay back anything, and he got about 20 grand compensation. (he won't tell me exactly how much he was awarded, but I know it was over 10 grand, and i think closer to 20).

 

It might be worth looking into, if they did infact wrongfully sack your daughter, you may be able to sue them.

[Boobaby]

Hi Boo,

 

I really hope, in time, she rises above it all and uses it, as experience, to thrive from and to ensure that it doesn't happen again to her, or anyone who ends up working for her, in the future. Give 'em hell. Ange

 

I think he was there for about a year when he was sacked, for no reason he says, they then asked hom for all the relocation money back. He said no, and ended up suing them for wrongful dismissal ... he won, he doesn't have to pay back anything, and he got about 20 grand compensation. (he won't tell me exactly how much he was awarded, but I know it was over 10 grand, and i think closer to 20).

 

It might be worth looking into, if they did infact wrongfully sack your daughter, you may be able to sue them.

Hi both

Thanks for the really positive and encouraging responses. I am so inclined to fight the little sh*** for wrongful dismissal as I know we will win but it is her life and as she says she has to work in this town again, they can and will make life very difficult for her and she is so frightened that they will screw up any chances she has at a future!!!

She has a cracking job in the pipeline at present and it is completely different from law or acountancy she is a gnats whisker away from getting it (she hopes) but of course they've now sent to the little sh*** for a reference and i'm telling you guys..... cos I know it won't go any further!! They mess this up for her and they will have a 'you don't want to cross me when I'm angry' mum to deal with!!

[angewes]

Hey Boo,

 

This is wierd 'cos i just randomly bumped into your msg on another thread about what we do for a living.

It must be really hard to bite your lip, but you're right about her doing it for herself. Whatever she decides to do, it sounds as though she has her head screwed on, probably a lot thanks to you, and she'll do just fine. Everything happens for a reason eh.

 

I've wanted to get stuck into a few people/organisations lately on behalf of my dad (also wierd 'cos I noticed what you do for a living - he lives in wardened accom in London - where I grew up - and after 2 strokes often needs help communicating (loss of speech and swallow - 9 years now)). But I have to be really careful, and often quite smarmy, to stay in peoples good books to get the best for him (when most of the time I really want to let rip and tell them how bloody useless and incompetent they are....;-)). It's all about playing the game I suppose.

 

God knows I've learnt that in my job (This is strangely therapeutic (does that make me quite sad??)). I've been in the military for 10 years now (joined before his 1st stroke, so never been able to help as much as I might've liked) and working predominantly with blokes (stone age ones on most counts) can be a nightmare. Last year I had a terrible time on a sqn of 150 blokes, being the only girl,.....in the aircrew environment, with detachments and all it's even worse. Having never had a problem fitting in with lads before some things happened that i struggled to cope with. But, from learning to stay positive and fight fairly (with a cunningly accurate record of all of the facts (whic they didn't have the noggin to have)), I changed a few things so that the future is brighter for other girls and newbies in similar situations.

 

I can soooo bang on - am gonna have to learn not to. Soz.

 

Stay calm and be there for her. The new company should have seen enough that a dodgy referral won't matter - if they haven't more fool them. Fingers crossed. I hope I'm as supportive a mum as you when my first bump pops out on a few months time.

 

Good luck.

[robbond55]

Just a note on the reference issue - I believe it is illegal to give a bad reference that is unwarrented - all they can do is decline.

Obviously, its up to your daughter but if she wishes to state why she is out of work I believe that honesty is the best policy - just rise above these B*******s and show herself to have backbone - not to be afraid of telling the truth unlike her previous employers and show the new firm why you have been wrongfully dismissed, why you are fighting it to clear your name and if they choose to let this scare them off from employing her it seems to me that they are just as bad as the previous firm regarding peoples employment rights!

She WILL win through in the end whatever she chooses to do and MUST hold her head high!

I leave this site every time I look at it with a sense of overwhelming pride that even though there are a lot os S***s out there this site proves without doubt that the good people on here are the representatives of the silent majority of the Great British Public who believe in fair play and integrity and these sods are outnumbered greatly!

If your daughter chooses to persue this futher I do not know whether this is appropriate or not but I would say if the date and time of the tribunal is to be made known if it gets this far I will, and I urge everyone else to, print out this thread in its entirety, enclose a covering letter stating Enough is Enough for companys unwarrented bullying tactics and send it in, almost as a petition!

Anyway, enough waffle from me - let me know what you think of this idea!

Regards,

 

Rob

[Boobaby]

Hey Boo,

I've been in the military for 10 years now (joined before his 1st stroke, so never been able to help as much as I might've liked) and working predominantly with blokes (stone age ones on most counts) can be a nightmare. Last year I had a terrible time on a sqn of 150 blokes, being the only girl,.....in the aircrew environment, with detachments and all it's even worse. Having never had a problem fitting in with lads before some things happened that i struggled to cope with. But, from learning to stay positive and fight fairly (with a cunningly accurate record of all of the facts (whic they didn't have the noggin to have)), I changed a few things so that the future is brighter for other girls and newbies in similar situations.

 

I can soooo bang on - am gonna have to learn not to. Soz.

 

Stay calm and be there for her. The new company should have seen enough that a dodgy referral won't matter - if they haven't more fool them. Fingers crossed. I hope I'm as supportive a mum as you when my first bump pops out on a few months time.

 

Good luck.

You have just brought a tear to my eye! You lovely lady, you clearly have a good heart!

I love my children and have worked hard to make them good adults and thankfully (more by luck than judgement) they have turned out to be well adjusted, considerate and loving people, which is sometimes more than can be said about me!! I envy you at the starting block of motherhood - so to speak, the next years of your life will prove to be the most challenging but most rewarding time ever. To be honest I still wonder if I could have done it better, but I know this much I couldn't have tried harder!

Anyway enough of the mushy stuff, I am still trying to persuade her as they are not letting up on her. We had an Invoice yesterday for £859.65 for a car space that she never had, so another response done!! I so want to nail their a**** but she so doesn't!!

[Boobaby]

If your daughter chooses to persue this futher I do not know whether this is appropriate or not but I would say if the date and time of the tribunal is to be made known if it gets this far I will, and I urge everyone else to, print out this thread in its entirety, enclose a covering letter stating Enough is Enough for companys unwarrented bullying tactics and send it in, almost as a petition!

Anyway, enough waffle from me - let me know what you think of this idea!

Regards,

 

Rob

 

I think personally it's a wonderful idea and I am still working on her to read the thread she will be sooooo touched by it all! But everytime I mention the unmentionable she clams up and takes a defiance stance. If I couldn't persuade her to not wear her wellies to bed when she took that stance at 4 years old I aint gonna persuade her now!!

But hey I'm a mother, that's my job and I am trying believe you me.

Thanks Rob

Boo x

[angewes]

Hello,

 

Blimey - did that parking space have diamond encrusted white lines??? How much are they trying it on - it's all ammunition to use back against them if necessary - B*******s.

[angewes]

P.S. You brought a tear to my eye too.........I'm actually completely bricking it about being a mum. At 32 (left it later than most) I only just feel old enough to be able to look after myself depsite, ironically, seeming like a parent to my own parents for years (at times)). That's another story - sorry, am nicking your thread - naughty.

 

On a random note - wot do you reckon about starting a thread about having a disabled family member/being a carer/respite etc. I reckon there's loads of people out there that migtht do better for their loved ones, amd themselves, if we shared all of our experiences and knoweledge gained. You'd possibly know better than me. Dad was entitled to loads more than we thought originally when we did some digging and got some help.

 

Hope Dave and Bankfodder wouldn't mind. Thoughts when you have time, perhaps by PM to save boring everyone??

 

Bye for now (banged on again - can't sleep, baby screwing with my tummy and bladder..............little sod ;-))

[Boobaby]

No problem, perhaps I can repay with advice of my own for all the advice given/taken from others.

You feel old enough to look after yourself? I am impressed, I'm still learning. Kids think they know it all anyway so I wouldn't worry about it!! Just make sure you clean and feed the right ends and give plenty of cuddles and you've got it made!!

Night, night hope you can sleep, baby's just preparing you for the lack of sleep later!!

Boo x

[Beaker_smiles]

Another good line of arguement, especially as they are claiming performance issues as the reason for dismissal, is that your daughter received a bonus for her work. If she was underperforming why did she get it?

[Boobaby]

Another good line of arguement, especially as they are claiming performance issues as the reason for dismissal, is that your daughter received a bonus for her work. If she was underperforming why did she get it?

My point exactly!! But she can't won't do anything about it - shame confidence comes with age! I now have the confidence of ten men these days but probably not when I was her age. We live and learn and she has to do what she feels is right still got the appeal in perhaps a little further down the line she'll change her mind so haven't burnt all the boats yet!!

Thanks for that

Boo

PS Beaker was always my favourite muppet, lots of people dont' remember him!

[reload]

Just to interject some light humour into the thread:

 

 

Yes, it's been a while!

 

I really need to get my head out of the gutter

[Boobaby]

Tell me about it stud!