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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
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Off street Council owned NON PUBLIC PCN


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Re-reading post 1, the blue badge was possessed by one of the other PCN'd persons and so not an appeal point for the OP. Is this correct Chip?

 

I doubt the blue badge aspect will be of any help unless blue badge holders are permitted to use the permit only spaces. This is unlikely where spaces are reserved for specific permit holders.

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Hi,

Thanks I have included the BB in the letter, yes I am the BB person, sorry I did not clear that up I was trying not to personalise.

The 3 others are non bb holders, Can I stress that all residents have used these spaces for 12 years without any hassle at all.

in the most recent Global TRO for off road 2010 it says :-PART III

EXEMPTION

27. The driver of a vehicle which displays in the relevant position a Disabled

Persons Car Parking Permit shall be exempt from any limitation of time

specified in Article 3 and from any payment specified in Articles 4 and 5 of this

Order - 28. For the purpose of this Order a vehicle shall be regarded as displaying a

disabled persons badge or Disabled Persons Car Parking Permit in the

relevant position when –

(i) in the case of a vehicle fitted with a front windscreen the badge is

exhibited thereon with the observe side facing forwards on the nearside

of and immediately behind the windscreen and

(ii) in the case of a vehicle not fitted with a front windscreen the badge is

exhibited in a conspicuous position on the front or nearside of the

vehicle.

GIVEN under the Common Seal of Teignbridge District Council this 12th day of March

2010

For off street parking TRO.

I have put in the letter this as the penultimate section.

Hope it's ok.

I would also ask you, in my submission to you, to consider the following facts in mitigation. On the day of the PCN issue I had erroneously not displayed my Blue Badge, this was an oversight on my part. I had just simply forgotten. I was the only car on your property as all other spaces in Cottey Meadow were being used. I would have hoped that with a little foresight your CEO, in taking down such details from my tax disc, would have noticed that the tax disc dispayed clearly it was for a disabled person. And may have adopted a more considered approach as per :-

 

”Operational Guidance to Local Authorities”;

 

6.17 However, the enforcement authority may wish to set out certain

situations when a CEO should not issue a PCN. For example,

an enforcement authority may wish to consider issuing a verbal

warning rather than a PCN to a driver who has committed a

minor contravention and is still with, or returns to, the vehicle

before a PCN has been served. The enforcement authority

should have clear policies, instructions and training for CEOs

on how to exercise such authority. These policies should form

the basis for staff training and should be published.

It may be, that in his observational time frame as reported on the PCN issued :-

Observed from : 10.56 to 10:57

He may feel he had fulfilled his duty in all respects.

I do not feel that was so.

I include in my mitigation request, a copy of the proof of disability, a copy also of the signage which states that :- “Failure to comply may result in a penalty charge being issued” and a copy of the paragraph taken from the ”Operational Guidance to Local Authorities”; which I also ask you to consider:-

Discretion

6.16 The Secretary of State considers that the exercise of discretion

should, in the main, rest with back office staff as part of considering

challenges against PCNs and representations against a Notice to Owner

– NtOs. This is to protect CEOs from allegations of inconsistency,

favouritism or suspicion of bribery. It also gives greater consistency in

the enforcement of traffic regulations.

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Hi again,

Just thought I would let you know what one of the other PCN recipients have submitted and ask for your perusal..

"I have parked in Cottey Meadow for the last 15 years and only recently have there suddenly been spaces marked and misleading signs displayed about parking. I believe that I have established a legal "prescriptive easement" by parking unchallenged over such a long period of time. I do not feel that I have "deprived the owner of the burdened land of the benefits" of ownership as nobody currently has bought a permit for the spaces. (Moncrieff v Jamieson)

Why you feel it necessary to spend your time and resources to ensure that nobody parks in an empty parking space that nobody has a permit for I cannot understand. In any case even if I could afford to buy a permit I understand that you could not guarantee my space would be free in the evening."

 

It is all quite true , I have yet to look up the case law refferal.

Cheers

The chip.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi to dogs and buzby and all,

Just an update.

We have not had an answer from the council about our challenges.

I have requested info from council under freedom of info act, about the number of PCN's issued in last

ten years for this small car park. They would not volunteer info when asked .

 

We as a group of neighbours have got together and are complaining officially to district and local council.

At least we will get on the agenda at next council meetings.

 

Got the local press involved and are also considering direct action.

 

Watch this space..

 

Thanks again.

The chip

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Regarding your FoI request - when you say they did not 'volunteer' the information, does this mean they refused your request - or ignored it? They can only cite limited objections to releasing this info, so if yor request was properly formulated (say, on the 'What Do They Know? site) you can formally complain about their non-compliance.

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Hi to you both,

 

Bzby....They refsed over the phone and I was told to fill in the form from their website see :-http://www.teignbridge.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=15049&p=0

 

I have downloaded this and been wondering exactly how to word the request.

I note from your posting , the "What do they know site" and have just looked and marvelled at the info there.

 

I now know exactly what to do. Many thanks for that great info.

 

Hi dogs,,, I have not yet received any cofirmed receipt, I sent my letter recorded delivery.

 

I will post as soon as anthing arrives.

 

Our local neighbour group have contacted local media and they are very interested so they are

contacting all parties.

 

We all had a letter from Guinness trust telling us they are now going to clamp all vehicles without warning or other tickets.

No one has paid any private ticket.

 

Cheers the chip

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P.S.

 

Sorry for late reply, I am having a break. I am broadcasting from a field in Herefordshire..

Technology, eh. don't you just love it?

Even though I'm old, I confess I love this world web power.!!!!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi all you helpers,

 

I sent the council my FOI request by email.

Not yet received a reply as Officer not back till today.

So I sent it again.

Do I need to send it through the WDTK site, or once they reply will it aoutomatically be viewable there.?

Cheers the chip.

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The WDTK site is fully automated, so if you use them, your response and any reply will be available to you and any WDTK viewer searching for similar info from the same Council. However, if you simply sent an email direct to the Council, (and NOT via WDTK) then the information will only be seen by you, when they do respond.

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The WDTK site is fully automated, so if you use them, your response and any reply will be available to you and any WDTK viewer searching for similar info from the same Council. However, if you simply sent an email direct to the Council, (and NOT via WDTK) then the information will only be seen by you, when they do respond.

Hi buzby,

Thanks for the reply.

I sent an email direct, sorry, I never read the the WDTK fully.

I received the standard letter today, i.e about 20 days for reply etc.

Set out below is my request, I hope you will be able to see their response when I get one, but failing that I will post here anyway.

Here is what I requested:-

 

Freedom of Information Officer

Teignbridge District Council

Forde House

Brunel Road

Newton Abbot

Devon

TQ12 4XX

United Kingdom

RE:- Cottey Meadow Car Park. Kingsteignton.

 

Dear Karen Mason

Democratic Services/FOI Officer,

Please would you provide the following information requested under the freedom of Information Act in relation to Cottey Meadow Car Park, Kingsteignton, Newton Abbot.

1). The total number of PCN's ( Penalty Charge Notices) , issued for the 6 spaces at Cottey Meadow car Park. For the period since the car park was first regulated in a Traffic regulation order to the present date.

2). The date that Cottey Meadow was first regulated in a Traffic order and also a copy of this first traffic order regulation and subsequent ammendments.

3). The dates of all PCN's issued for the above period.

4). The number of PCN's successfully challenged over this period.

5). The number of PCN's waivered over this period.

6). Copies of Public notices posted or published prior to decision made to include Cottey Meadow in such order.

7). The date the land for the car Park was adopted by Teignbridge District Council and the subsequent date it was decided to use the land for conversion into car parking, regulated or otherwise.

8). Copies of all minutes of meetings of Teignbridge and meetings between Teignbridge District Council and Kingsteignton Parish Council, (as it was then). At which the item of Cottey Meadow car parking was a subject of discussion. (including sub-comittees).

The majority of the figures should be readily available from annual

statistics or computer records already presented to committees for

discussion .

Many thanks for any assistance you can give

Yours Faithfully,

None of the people who got a (legal) PCN and who all challenged

have had any reply yet.

I can't find any reference to any statutory time limits for them to decide to waiver or even reply? I feel they should have duty to acknowledge as I sent mine recorded delivery.

!6 tickets issued from private firm and all ignored and stuck back on their parking sign, which some irreverent person has sprayed over ....

We've had lots of police visits and we are now about to officially lodge complaint about harrassment.

 

Will keep you posted .

Thanks to you all again for all your support.

Cheers

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  • 5 weeks later...

Hi all,

I have had a reply to my freedom of information request in my last post.

It was late and also it is a total farce. They have not answered all my questions and they have been very vague on others.

I don't know whether to just go into the complaints procedure or write back first pointing out their omissions.

Would you please advise on the best course of action.

I have posted the reply below. ( not sure if i am allowed ?) sorry moderators.

 

Also I have not even received any acknowledgement to my PCN challenge 2 months ago now.

Do they have a statutory duty or is it a case of no news is good news??

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT 2000 – REQUEST 901

I am writing in respect of your recent application for the release of information held by this

authority and apologise for the delay in responding to you.

The response is detailed below and will be published on the Teignbridge District Council

web site with your personal data removed. I hope you will find this area the web

interesting, as it also provides information of previously supplied information.

Here is the link: www.teignbridge.gov.uk/disclosurelog.

1) The total number of PCN's ( Penalty Charge Notices), issued for the 6 spaces at Cottey

Meadow car Park. For the period since the car park was first regulated in a Traffic

regulation order to the present date.

Since May 2008 when we took on Civil Parking Enforcement 4 PCN's have been issued.

We are unable to provide any further details of Excess Charges which were issued in this

location prior to this date as the records are not available to access.

2) The date that Cottey Meadow was first regulated in a Traffic order and also a copy of

this first traffic order regulation and subsequent ammendments.

Cottey Meadow was first put in the Order in 1998 following the adoption of a small area of

land including the 6 bays after the Sheltered Housing was completed.

3) The dates of all PCN's issued for the above period.

The PCNs were issued in August and September 2010 following new regulated signage

being put in place as requested by local residents.

4) The number of PCN's successfully challenged over this period. None challenged

5) The number of PCN's waivered over this period. None waived

6) Copies of Public notices posted or published prior to decision made to include Cottey

Meadow in such order.

The most recent Parking Places Order (2010) is on the Parking Services website,

including the schedule of all locations. Any previous notices would be superseded by the

most recent notice put in the paper in April 2010 and in all car parks to coincide with this.

7) The date the land for the car Park was adopted by Teignbridge District Council and the

subsequent date it was decided to use the land for conversion into car parking, regulated

or otherwise. See 2 above

8) Copies of all minutes of meetings of Teignbridge and meetings between Teignbridge

District Council and Kingsteignton Parish Council (as it was then). At which the item of

Cottey Meadow car parking was a subject of discussion (including sub-comittees).

Town Council meeting minutes are held by the appropriate Town Council and you should

contact them for this information.

If you disagree with our decision or are otherwise unhappy with how we have dealt with

your request, you may use the Council’s Complaints Procedure by writing to the Council

for a review of the decision. The review will be undertaken by the appropriate Service

Lead, who will provide you with a written explanation of the outcome. If you are not

satisfied with the outcome provided by the Service Lead you may ask for the matter to be

referred to our Chief Executive.

If you are not content with the outcome of your complaint once the Council’s complaints

procedure has been followed, you have a right to appeal to the Information Commissioner

(ICO). Generally, the ICO cannot make a decision unless you have exhausted the

complaints procedure provided by the Council. The Information Commissioner can be

contacted for a copy of their complaint form at: The Information Commissioner’s Office,

Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire SK9 5AF, www.ico.gov.uk or by

telephone 08456 30 60 60 or 01625 54 57 45.

Yours sincerely

KMason

Karen Mason

Freedom of Information Officer

Any help as always greatly appreciated...

 

Cheers Chipbutty

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Which of their answers did you feel were not providing you with the information relevant to your interest? (More to the point, which ones did you fell would have assisted your challenge?). From their reply, they do seem to have it in order, confirming that until the signage was compliant, they did not issue PCNs. Only when the replacement signage was in place did the enforcement take place. If the issues you compalin of do not affect you directly, there is no point mixing up the two disputes.

 

Regarding your point on your representation, you have proof they received it? If so, sit tight. If not, follow up with a querty, nothing that as you have not had a response you are assuming that they have discontinued their pursuit and that the matter is now closed.

 

:)

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Hi Buzby,

Thanks for replying so quick.

I am conserned mainly by these.

 

3) The dates of all PCN's issued for the above period.

The PCNs were issued in August and September 2010 following new regulated signage

being put in place as requested by local residents.

 

These were issued and not pursued but in their other reply they say they have had no challenges and none waivered,

which is incorrect. I appreciate your point of leaving well alone if they havent pursued the culprits.!

But this makes the request a false statement of facts.

 

Also concerned about...

2) The date that Cottey Meadow was first regulated in a Traffic order and also a copy of

this first traffic order regulation and subsequent ammendments.

Cottey Meadow was first put in the Order in 1998 following the adoption of a small area of

land including the 6 bays after the Sheltered Housing was completed.

We would like a copy of the first traffic order to enable us to prove that the land was used freely since 1998 to 2010.

They only marked out the spaces and put signs up this year.

Our whole point is that there has never been a problem there before, why are they suddenly causing us misery.

Would like to see the first traffic order as I dont believe it exists. The spaces without signs were only marked in 2006 without signs. Prior to that it was blank tarmack.

The answer to that I suppose is :-

3) The dates of all PCN's issued for the above period.

The PCNs were issued in August and September 2010 following new regulated signage

being put in place as requested by local residents.

But we know of no resident request.

Would they divulge the name of the resident if asked?

 

Also :-

1) The total number of PCN's ( Penalty Charge Notices), issued for the 6 spaces at Cottey

Meadow car Park. For the period since the car park was first regulated in a Traffic

regulation order to the present date.

Since May 2008 when we took on Civil Parking Enforcement 4 PCN's have been issued.

We are unable to provide any further details of Excess Charges which were issued in this

location prior to this date as the records are not available to access.

They are implying that the records are not available as it was the police responsibility but surely they can get that information?

 

And lastly,:-

cool.gif Copies of all minutes of meetings of Teignbridge and meetings between Teignbridge

District Council and Kingsteignton Parish Council (as it was then). At which the item of

Cottey Meadow car parking was a subject of discussion (including sub-comittees).

Town Council meeting minutes are held by the appropriate Town Council and you should

contact them for this information.

 

The land belonged to the developer but they gave it over to the council for public use, which was minuted in the planning applications at the time and parish council minutes. But mysteriously the minutes and plans went missing concerning the discussion between teignbridge and local council.

There are no public records we can find for that change of use from public to legislated use.

That is why I asked for their minutes, which would have been important in exposing some Malfeascance at the time of the development.

 

Also we have put in a petition to the district council to have on street permit parking in Sandpath Road at charges of only £20 per year, instead of the £364 they want for one space that you can only have guaranteed use of between the hours of 7 am to 7pm.

And they have used these parking spaces as an excuse to resist the on street permits.

See copy letter below.:-

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22411[/ATTACH] clip_image002.jpg

Thanks a million

Cheers Chip.

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