Chalkitup v American Express and various DCA's

[Chalkitup]

Hello All,

Starting a separate thread for my dealings regarding American Express Credit Card so not to confuse everyone ....

 

Background is:

2006 - Ran into financial difficulties - started Debt Managment Plan with CCCS - Paid monthly way over what I could really afford as was scared by all the threats etc that I received from creditors / DCA's

 

2007 - Found CAG - started CCA requests to a few "difficult" creditors

 

2007 to Feb 2010 - got some creditors removed from my CCCS DMP because they did not comply to CCA requests

 

Feb 2010 - Big bust up with CCCS (separate thread) as they refused to remove creditors from DMP anymore even if they sent nothing in response to CCA request - I went through annual CCCS review and as it happens I did not have enough cash left over each month to pay creditors even £5 each (CCCS told me the minimum they allow) - CCCS stopped my DMP and advised I offer £1 a month to each creditor and see if I can manage on that!!

 

Now dealing with "lots" of original creditors and DCA's with CAG help.

 

-- American Express Credit Card ....

Been paying in my CCCS DMP which finished Feb 2010 ...

 

Received lots of phone calls and letters from RMA Resolve DCA ....

 

May 2010 - I sent CCA request to RMA

 

More phone calls from RMA Resolve in which they never mention the CCA request

 

02/06/10 - I receive letter from RMA saying ""In order to allow us to prepare the information requested we would be grateful if you allow 12 days from the date of this letter" plus they kept my postal order payment and told me they will provide me with a signed credit agreement as requested.

 

The CCA request 12 + 2 days is up on 09/06/10

 

HOWEVER ...... 07/06/10 ....... I receive the usual "even if it is not actually read by you" letter from Moorcroft dated 04/06/10 :-? giving me until 11/06/10 to arrange payment for the same AMEX account that they (Moorcroft) have NOW been instructed to collect!!!!!!!!

 

It absolutely beggars belief ....... these banks / DCA's do not give a damn about the law and just do as they please.

 

Moorcroft start their phone calls to me which I decide to intercept on this particular account with my Truecall unit.

 

10/06/10 - I send in dispute letter to RMA as no response to CCA request and Formal Complaint "what is going on" letter to Moorcroft as RMA are meant to be dealing with account (as the RMA letters I have received show) - Both letters have been signed for as delivered

 

Not heard a thing from RMA but Moorcroft have so far sent two Possible Litigation letters (the usual stuff) BUT they have yet again as they have done on other accounts of mine stopped using my PO Box which American Express have always used and started using my home address to send the letters .... not that it worries me apart from where they have sourced the address from!

 

And there we have it so far ..... my next move is to await their answers to my complaint and dispute letters and then I guess I will complain to either the OFT or FOS (not sure which actually) about two DCA's collecting the same account which is in dispute.

 

Unless anyone else has a better plan please?

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Brigadier 1JCS]

I think OFT first then FOS after you receive Moorcrofts Final Response letter.

[ScarletPimpernel]

This is part of the usual Amex cycle. Amex have a particularly odd view of the situation, viz, you have a moral duty to repay whatever sum they demand even when agreements are unenforceable and the amount contains penalty charges and non-compliant 'file referral fees'; they have no obligation to comply with the law, and had no moral obligation to ensure that their documentation was compliant in the first place.

 

Their method is simple: pass the account from one DCA to another; when one returns the account because of non-compliance with a CCA request, or because the debt is unenforceable, pass it to another, and so on, until lots of them have tried, some twice, and then go to court. If there's a whiff of a defence, or awkward questions are raised about unlawful rescission or securitization, change solicitors at the last minute and pay lots of money for creative barristers to ensure that justice goes to him with the deepest pockets.

 

I think that sums it up.

[Chalkitup]

Thank you both,

 

I will await their next move.

 

Amex have already sent me some years ago an invalid DN and they added what they called a collection fee of over £500 to the account a few years back also.

 

Forgot to add in my first post that I rent where I live, have no assets and I am on benefits (which I would rather not be but needs must) so I will fight my corner in court if need be.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Update .... regarding this account - (two DCA's collecting the same account which is in dispute.)

 

Not heard a thing from RMA re my letter they received on 11/06/10 about account in dispute as no CCA response received

 

And not had a reply from Moorcroft re my complaint letter that they recieved also on 11/06/10 about why they are collecting the same account ......... but they are still churning out the threatograms to me

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Update...

 

As I heard absolutely nothing from RMA or Moorcroft I resent complaint letter to Moorcroft at the end of July regarding some issues with what they have done ........ had a reply from them explaining that "in line with their Terms of agreement with American Express they have forwarded my complaints letter to American Express to investigate and I will have a reply from Amex in due course"??? .......... Ha Ha .... when did they ever bother about terms of agreement!!

 

How the hell can Amex answer my questions put to Moorcroft regarding what Moorcroft have done????

 

Talk about make things difficult and create a smokescreen.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Bill Shidding]

Hi chalkitup,

 

started using my home address to send the letters .... not that it worries me apart from where they have sourced the address from!

 

RM have to give out the address of the person/company behind any P.O. Box on request. I can't find the telephone number at present, but I'm sure it will be on the net. This ensures that nobody can "hide" behind a P.O. box, not even a shy DCA.

 

Amex (and their gofers) are a pain I-T-A.

[Chalkitup]

Hello,

 

Yes, I have used RM myself to track down an address from a PO Box in the past.

 

But I suspected Moorcroft used other means ......... and they have admitted now on three of my accounts to being given the other address by a CRA. So I am now chasing up to see if any Data protection regulations have been broken there. It seems very weird to me that they need to use a different address anyway because I am in contact with them by letter, not hiding away and the original creditors have been happy using the PO Box address for over ten years!!!

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Received a response to CCA from American Express.

 

A copy of application form from over twenty years ago that has all prescribed terms and my signature !!!!!!

 

Two generic sets of T&Cs ..... 2003 and 2005 .... none from when I first got the card .... and neither set has my name or address on them anywhere.

 

But the application form is from another card I had with them that I closed two years after opening ...... plus the credit card they are chasing me about derives from a pre-approved Application form approx 9 years ago that I have a copy of and it has no prescribed terms and the rear only has their address on as it was a fold in two and send back type mailer.

 

Seeking advice on my next move please?

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[ScarletPimpernel]

I see that Amex continue with their standard game plan.

 

Amex, having spent large sums on the creative lawyers mentioned above, recently won a case in which there was a non-compliant agreement, silly 'file referral' fees and invalid default notice. The victim appealed - and lost! The principal reason for the appeal being dismissed was that Amex's victim had never said that he did not owe Amex money. The judge essentially said that since Mr X doesn't deny owing Amex the money, he is arguing technicalities.

 

Clearrly you have to take a view; in my case, I saw from my SAR that I had repaid Amex the capital sum - in other words, the amount I'd spent, and if my case goes to court I will argue that since the paperwork is Andrex then Amex have no right to any interest or fees. Others may take a different view.

 

What is absolutely certain is that Amex are persistent and determined; their whole UK business could be affected if they lose court cases because of their hopeless paperwork, and consequently they will spend money on lawyers; anyone going to cpurt with them needs to think carefully.

[Chalkitup]

Thank you ScarletPimpernel,

 

After reading your post I now understand the court case more that you sopke about ..... I read about it over the weekend and could not believe it! I have the same things ..... £500 "collection fee" added to account ..... faulty DN and now completely incorrect CCA response.

 

Not that I am happy about the situation I am in but I am on benefits which do not cover my out goings, in rented accomadation and no assets ...... so if they go to court I am not sure if the Judge can set a monthly payment to them (not sure how it works) especially as CCCS stopped my DMP earlier this year as I do not have any cash left over each month to pay the CCCS minimum creditor figure.

 

But taking that aside ..... I really am stuck as to how I now respond to Amex regarding the CCA docs they have sent me ........ I could write and say they have sent the wrong application form but would that benefit them? Plus I suppose I should tell them they have not supplied the original T&Cs. Then at least the ball is in their court ....... (what a great choice of phrase to use)

 

Or should I SAR them ...... and put the account number of the credit card down that they are chasing and see what docs / comms log etc comes back???

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Any advice welcome regarding posts 9 and 11 ----- what should my next move be ?

 

I feel reluctant to bring their attention to the incorrect application form ..... but if need be than I will.

 

Or should I SAR them and see what returns?

 

Thank you

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Bump

[cheddar]

As far as I know an application form isn't a CCA. Can you scan and post up what they sent you (hiding any personal info) so someone can assist further.

[Chalkitup]

Hello cheddar,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

If the application form has all the prescribed terms etc then it will do as an agreement.

 

No point posting up the application form I have received as it is enforceable BUT it is from another American Express card I had that I closed two years after opening. So it is the incorrect application form anyway.

 

Because of that I do not know what to do now!!

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[harrassed senior]

Well, IMHO you have almost answered your own questions.

 

Think of it this way, you say you closed down the the original account, was this fully paid with nothing outstanding? If so and they confirm that the paperwork they have sent refers to the account in questions then this applies:

 

172:

Statements by creditor or owner to be binding

(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under-

section 77(1), section 78(1), section 79(1), section 97(1), section 107(1)©, section 108(1)©, or section 109(1)©.

 

Err, so what are they chasing. Do you get my drift!!

[Chalkitup]

Hello harrassed senior, My answers in red!

 

Well, IMHO you have almost answered your own questions.

 

Think of it this way, you say you closed down the the original account, was this fully paid with nothing outstanding? Yes all settled up. If so and they confirm that the paperwork they have sent refers to the account in questions (yes they have put that in writing in the letter that came with CCA response) then this applies:

 

172:

Statements by creditor or owner to be binding

(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under-

section 77(1), section 78(1), section 79(1), section 97(1), section 107(1)©, section 108(1)©, or section 109(1)©. Excellent

 

Err, so what are they chasing. Do you get my drift!!

 

Fully understand ........ so should I keep quiet and do nothing for the moment ............. should I SAR them and see what that comes up with ......... ????

 

Thanks

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Whoops Duplicated post

Edited September 7, 2010 by Chalkitup
Duplicate post

[CarhleJon]

Thank you ScarletPimpernel,

 

After reading your post I now understand the court case more that you sopke about ..... I read about it over the weekend and could not believe it! I have the same things ..... £500 "collection fee" added to account ..... faulty DN and now completely incorrect CCA response.

 

Not that I am happy about the situation I am in but I am on benefits which do not cover my out goings, in rented accomadation and no assets ...... so if they go to court I am not sure if the Judge can set a monthly payment to them (not sure how it works) especially as CCCS stopped my DMP earlier this year as I do not have any cash left over each month to pay the CCCS minimum creditor figure.

 

But taking that aside ..... I really am stuck as to how I now respond to Amex regarding the CCA docs they have sent me ........ I could write and say they have sent the wrong application form but would that benefit them? Plus I suppose I should tell them they have not supplied the original T&Cs. Then at least the ball is in their court ....... (what a great choice of phrase to use)

 

Or should I SAR them ...... and put the account number of the credit card down that they are chasing and see what docs / comms log etc comes back???

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

 

Sorry - what is this case your talking about? I have a "file referral fee" of over a thousand £'s - can I get it removed?

[Chalkitup]

Hi CarhleJon,

 

I can not remember which case it was now! If you pm ScarletPimpernel I am sure he will tell you.

 

Regarding your "file referral fee" ........ if Amex behave in the same way they are with me then they just keep saying the fee is allowed as it is mentioned in the Credit Card Account Terms & Conditions ....... basically as ScarletPimpernel mentions above Amex take no notice at all to my letters and just send me letters full of nonsense.

 

The latest Amex letter includes a sentence starting "Moorcroft is a tertiary debt collection agency" .... the definition of tertiary is either a) third, b) specialized describes an industry that provides a service and is not involved with getting the materials with which products are made, or with making products or c) UK relating to education in colleges and universities ........... So I presume they mean Moorcroft is in the debt collection Industry which is not involved with getting materials ....... Thank goodness they used simple English to explain that to me ....... I will not even bother to write about the rest of the letter but needless to say they insist they have done no wrong and I am completely in the wrong and will be hauled infront of the court and be banished to the outer planet of Zog forever if I do not pay them straight away. Muppets!!!

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[CarhleJon]

Lol - cool - thanks

[ScarletPimpernel]

The case is Amex v Brandon.