We have so much debt, it seems only hope is selling house!

[Rhia]

If you feel you can make a F&F offer without it derailing your plans then I would do it. If you think you can get rid of three of them it#s three less to hassle you and you can concentrate on the rest.

 

There are a few template letters re F&F available online - I am sure CAG has got one or Big Debtor. Make sure you make them a low offer as we know they'll say it's not enough. Then you hit them with a second F&F letter asking them to reconsider as it's the only way they will be able to resolve this quickly.

 

As for the charges. This is where the OFT and Lending Code guidance comes in. More letters I'm afraid but write and ask them to (please yes BD I can hear you) stop all charges as you are in financial difficulties and under the Lending Code they are expected to assist you by freezing interest/charges etc (it's on that link I sent you above). If they don't, well they are the ones not fulfilling their obligations and when it come sto making them a F&F tally them up and add interest and then deduct from the total before you make any offer.

 

You're doing brilliantly if you are even considering settling three of these debts.

[Bigdebtor]

I agree with most of what Rhia says - but if Next ar playing ball then I would just keep paying them the agreed monthly amount, and focus on the stroppy ones. The £12 charges will be refunded - with interest - once you take them on - as they won't go to court.

 

Send of the letter suggested by Rhia to the stroppy ones complaining they are not treating you as they should - but also put in a bit about them having cashed your cheques on xx june, xx july etc. - which they should only have done if they were accepting your proposal. Tell them another creditor who did not accept it at least returned the cheques. If no joy to your letters - and give them only 8 weeks to reply/comply - then threaten to go to FOS.If the debt balance is low (less than £450) they would be crazy to risk a £450 referral bill from FOS!

 

As Rhia says, you're getting there - and things will get better as you assert your rights more confidently as time goes on.

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Next ar playing ball then I would just keep paying them the agreed monthly amount, and focus on the stroppy ones.

 

Yes that makes sense.

 

The £12 charges will be refunded - with interest - once you take them on - as they won't go to court.

Send of the letter suggested by Rhia to the stroppy ones complaining they are not treating you as they should - but also put in a bit about them having cashed your cheques on xx june, xx july etc. - which they should only have done if they were accepting your proposal. Tell them another creditor who did not accept it at least returned the cheques. If no joy to your letters - and give them only 8 weeks to reply/comply - then threaten to go to FOS.If the debt balance is low (less than £450) they would be crazy to risk a £450 referral bill from FOS!

 

OK, I'll send above letters to stroppy ones where we owe small amounts (I'll post the letter here for checking first, if that's ok). But do I do that after I send a F&F offer or before?

 

Thanks!

[Bigdebtor]

Yes that makes sense.

 

 

 

OK, I'll send above letters to stroppy ones where we owe small amounts (I'll post the letter here for checking first, if that's ok). But do I do that after I send a F&F offer or before?

 

Thanks!

 

I would do the complaining letter first. If they do then agree to freeze interest, refund recent charges and accept a small token paymnet then no need to do an F&F offer at this time - save the F&F money for those who won't play ball, or threaten court action etc.

 

Remember - you have one over-riding objective - to get debt free for as little payment as possible - but not necessarily as fast as possible - debtors causing hassle for longer tend to get better F&F deals just to get rid of them.

 

There are two main ways to do this using F&F:

 

1. The best is that once they realise they can no longer make money from you (by continuing to charge high interest, unfair charges etc.) then they'll be much more amenable to consider low F&F's - giving them more cash to fleece others who haven't yet found CAG.

 

2. The second way is to offer a very low F&F deal to those who just won't play ball with freezing interest etc. - but not until you've built up a picture of your being reasonable and them being obstructive/unco-operative.

Hopefully they'll want rid of you to avoid the ongoing hassle and will start to negotiate - especially once they know YOU know your rights re unfair charges, OFT/FOS guidelines on hardship etc.

While this is going on (possibly over several months) then you should continue to send the monthly token payment cheques with the letter saying you're disappointed they have so far continued to levy interest and charges - and the enclosed cheque should only be cashed if they agree to stop doing so and refund all such interest and charges back on to your statement with immediate effect.

By ignoring your "reasonable" proposals they'll do themselves no favours with either courts, FOS, OFT etc.

 

In the meantime continue to build up your F&F fund as fast and as high as you can. You never know when you'll need it.

 

BD

[Rhia]

Bloody marvellous advice Big Debtor. I love your reasoning which, I assume, is based on experience.

[wilchil64]

Thanks for putting it in perspective for me - I keep getting the urge to get rid of these people as quickly as possible, but of course can't do that, so it makes sense to pay as little as possible each month and to get them to freeze charges and interest.

 

"To the Chief Executive

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Further to your letter dated xxxxxx and my letters dated xxxxxx, xxxxxx and xxxxxx, I am again writing to request that you freeze all charges and interest, as I am in financial difficulties and under the Lending Code you are obliged to assist me by freezing interest and charges. You are not fulfilling this obligation.

 

However, you have cashed the cheques I sent on xxxxxx and xxxxxx, which you should only have done if you were accepting my proposal. Another creditor who did not accept my proposal did at least return the cheques.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully"

 

Sorry, this letter seems a bit clumsy. Is there anything else I should be saying?

 

Thank you!!

[Bigdebtor]

The letter's fine.

 

I would just enlarge the last paragraph a bit as

 

"You also took payments from me via cheque no XXXX for £xx.xx enclosed with my letter of XX/XX/2010, cheque no XXX enclosed with etc. and cheque no. xxx enclosed with etc. and should only have taken such payments if you also accepted the terms in which such payments were to be accepted by you as detailed in each of these letters. If you took these payments in error, now that you are aware of the accompanying conditions of acceptance of such payments, can you either return these payments in full or retain these payments along with cheque no XXXX for £xx.xx (enclosed) in acceptance of my proposal ".

 

I bet they'll just cash the next cheque and ignore the letter - but you're giving them enough rope to hang themselves.

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Thanks for your help with the letter BD! That sounds much better.

 

As I've just sent cheques for September, will it be ok to send this letter with the cheques I intend to send on 30th September for October's payment?

[Bigdebtor]

OK - but touch base with us towards end SEPT - BEFORE sending off any letters with your Oct payments - so you can modify the letters to match any developments during Sept.

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Yes, will do.

 

All I've had in the past couple of days is another letter from Santander saying we've to ring them urgently regarding our letter! Obviously I'm not going to, will be ignoring it for now and writing at the end of the month with the next cheque. Or would it be better not to ignore their letter but to reply without a cheque but with the letter above about not treating us as they should?

[Bigdebtor]

Yes, will do.

 

All I've had in the past couple of days is another letter from Santander saying we've to ring them urgently regarding our letter! Obviously I'm not going to, will be ignoring it for now and writing at the end of the month with the next cheque. Or would it be better not to ignore their letter but to reply without a cheque but with the letter above about not treating us as they should?

 

Wilchil

 

Did this letter cross with one enclosing a cheque? if so, i would wait and see if the cheque has been cashed before writing again.

 

Two scenarios:

 

1. They cash the cheque. If so, then just ignore the last letter since "clearly, by banking your cheque they have accepted your proposal". If they do write again before the next cheque letter due in early Oct then write and tell them you're confused. since by banking cheque nos. XXXX, XXX and XXXX on Xx June, Xx July, XX Aug and X Sept they have clearly accepted your proposals, you assume their letters of XX and XX have been sent in error. As already indicated you only wish to communicate in writing - so can they please confirm in writing their acceptance of your proposal - or advise in writing the matters they had wanted clarified by phone.

 

2. They don't cash the cheque. Then send the "why are you not treatng me as someone in difficlties as the OFT say you should?" Do this ASAP - and don't send any more cheques as they are not playing ball withyou - and you've given them 4 chances and they've renaged on the deal by cashing previous cheques nos XX on x June, XXXX on x July and XXX on x Aug (if they did?) - but ignoring the attached terms. Since they refer to your last letter they can't claim not to have read it! Again stress any points needing clarified must be put in writing - no phone calls or visits allowed.

 

Good luck. We never said it would be easy!

 

BD

[wilchil64]

I've attached the latest letters we've received, three of them arrived today, one arrived earlier this week (mentioned it above).

 

All three letters from Santander Cards have crossed in the post with my letter.

 

All the cheques I sent have been cashed APART FROM Santander Cards!

 

I'm just wondering if I'm getting into even more dangerous ground now, do I need to reply to these? What will happen if I don't?

 

I haven't sent any letters to anyone yet, since sending cheques to all creditors of lower payments.

santander card 080910.PDF

santander card 310810.PDF

santander card 080910 2.PDF

mbna card 080910.PDF

Edited September 9, 2010 by wilchil64
Added more info

[Bigdebtor]

Wilchill

 

1. DON'T PANIC. That is what they want you to do now! As I've said before IF they took YOU to Court, any Judge would simply award them an affordable monthly payment - which is EXACTLY what you are offering them now. I'm CERTAIN any Court action is a long long way off - if ever. I've been in this position several times - and in the end they have always accepted the token payments and frozen interest and charges.

2. I think you have already told them you will NOT discuss this by phone. I would just write to the Santander woman along the lines already discussed telling her you deem them to have accepted your proposals by cashing your earlier cheques nos XXX, XXX etc. etc. each for £xx.xx being the revised affordable monthly amount offered by you in the letters outlining your proposals on XX June, XX July etc. If she now wishes to make a counter proposal then she should do so in writing as you will not be ringing her. It is not necessary to speak by phone. Written comunication by post or e-mail is your preferred method of contact and you will NOT discuss the matter any further by phone or by personal contact with any doorstep caller - which they must not send to your home as you refuse them permission to enter your property. Any breach of this will be trepass and any refusal to leave your property will be Breach of the Peace and Police will be called. Get either Proof of Posting (free - but ensure you put you have obtaine dthis in the body of your letter) or send Recorded Delivery.

3. Tell her you acknowledge receipt of the Default Notice dated XX Sept demanding payment of the arrears within 14 days - but you ARE NOT in a position to make the payment detailed as demanded within 14 days of the date of the DN (i.e. before XX Sept). Can they please clarify if this means the agreement is terminated as of XX Sept (i.e 14 days after the date of issue of the default notice) since if this is the case you will need to seek further advice from CCCS, CAB or other independent sources of advice. It is therefore important that they confirm your legal position regarding the termination or otherwise of the agreement as from the date from which you will have failed to comly with the demands detailed in the Default Notice.

4. Tell MBNA something similar about accepting payments and therefore the associated terms of your proposals. Ask them to clarify if this is actually a Default Notice - not sure if it is or not from what you have attached.

5. There is something else very important that I'll pm you about. I'll copy Rhia on this too as she will also be interested - and also can ensure what I'm going to say makes sense to both of you and is in your best interests.

 

I think you've got this pair on the ropes.

 

Keep fighting!

 

BD

Edited September 9, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos (too mad to be accurate!)

[Bigdebtor]

Rhia

 

I tried to copy you on a pm to Wilchil - but you need to empty your inbox first if you want it. Let me know when I can resend it to you.

 

BD

[wilchil64]

I'm trying not to panic, but feel like I'm in over my head now.

 

Yes I told them already we wouldn't discuss on the phone but prefer to communicate in writing. I'll put together a letter and post it here for approval, if that's ok. I always get proof of postage but I think in this case I'll go for Recorded Delivery! If they do come knocking on the door, do I have to let them in? Are they likely to, has this happened to you?

 

What would it mean if they terminate the agreement? That I have to pay everything back at once? Is this likely? Can they enforce that?

 

I'm not sure either if it is a Default Notice , as it just said Notice of Sums in Arrears at the top of the letter. We have missed two minimum payments (although of course made the lower payments to them). Would they issue a default notice now or is that after 3 missed payments? Can they even count the payments as missed when we are making lower payments?!

 

Thanks BD. On the ropes - is that a positive thing?

 

I'll be back later today with some draft letters. Thanks VERY much.

Edited September 9, 2010 by wilchil64
additional info

[Bigdebtor]

I'm trying not to panic, but feel like I'm in over my head now.

 

Yes I told them already we wouldn't discuss on the phone but prefer to communicate in writing. I'll put together a letter and post it here for approval, if that's ok. I always get proof of postage but I think in this case I'll go for Recorded Delivery! If they do come knocking on the door, do I have to let them in? Are they likely to, has this happened to you?

 

NO - NOT EVER! READ THE OFT GUIDELINES ON DEBT COLLECTION (via Google).

 

What would it mean if they terminate the agreement? That I have to pay everything back at once? Is this likely? Can they enforce that?

 

NO - SEE MY PM FOR THE REAL STORY. LET ME KNOW IF YOU CAN'T GET IT.

I'm not sure either if it is a Default Notice , as it just said Notice of Sums in Arrears at the top of the letter. We have missed two minimum payments (although of course made the lower payments to them). Would they issue a default notice now or is that after 3 missed payments? Can they even count the payments as missed when we are making lower payments?!

 

NOT SURE- ASK THEM TO CLARIFY IF THEY REGARD IT AS A FORMAL DN. IT's IN YOUR INTERESTS TO GET A FORMAL DN AS MY PM SHOWS.

 

Thanks BD. On the ropes - is that a positive thing?

 

YES - THEY ARE RUNNING OUT OF IDEAS - AND LOOK AS IF THEY'RE STARTING TO SCREW THINGS UP.

MAKE NO FURTHER PAYMENTS TO THEM IF THEY HAVE NOT SO FAR ACCEPTED YOUR PROPOSALS AND ARE PUSHING YOU TO PAY MORE THAN YOU CAN NOW AFFORD AND THREATENING YOU BY SAYING THEY'll DEMAND THE FULL BALANCE IF YOU DON'T CLEAR ARREARS WITHIN 14 DAYS. AS I SAID EARLIER I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD EVER BE FORCED TO DO THIS BY ANY COURT (EVEN IF THEY DARED TO TRY TO TAKE IT TO COURT) - YOU WOULD ONLY BE MADE TO PAY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD - AS YOU HAVE OFFERED AND TRIED TO DO WITHOUT THEIR CO-OPERATION.

I'll be back later today with some draft letters. Thanks VERY much.

 

OK - see replies in block caps above.

 

BD

[victoria_siempre]

Hi

 

I am not an expert but am receiving similar letters.

 

the Santander one appears to be a default notice. This is a pre-requisite for them taking legal action but it doesn't mean that they will do so. Some issue these as a matter of course and some do not. It means they can enter a 'default' not on your credit file but that is all. Do not worry about it.

 

The MBNA one is a routine reminder that you are in arrears. Do not worry about it.

 

You are a long way off from any court action. maintain your stance that you are offering what you can reasonably afford; that is all that a court would order. You need to prepare though for a long battle and constant harassment and threats but you can only pay what you can afford.

 

best wishes

 

vic

[Bigdebtor]

Vic

 

Thanks for providing further support to Wilchil. I have made some comments about the Santander DN to her by pm. I would be happy to let you see these too of you're interested and Wilchil agrees.

 

BD

[victoria_siempre]

Thanks BD

 

That would be helpful.

 

vic

[wilchil64]

Thanks for your support Vic. I'm just worried about not doing the right thing or not replying in time or .... Am completely out of my depth and just don't have the time to read through all the threads on here that I want to! But I'll keep fighting and doing my best.

[wilchil64]

BD, of course you can send the info re Santander DN to Vic, at least then I feel I'm helping others in some way here as well!

[Bigdebtor]

Wilchil

 

Did you get my pm? Can I forward it to Vic?

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Crossed in the posting - pm going to Vic now.

[wilchil64]

Hi BD,

 

Below is a draft letter to Santander, could you let me know if I've put in too much, too little, etc.! Thanks.

 

" Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Re.: Account xxx

 

Further to your letters dated xxxxxx, xxxxxx and xxxxxx, I deem you to have accepted our proposals by cashing our earlier cheques numbers xxx, xxx and xxx, each for £xx being the revised affordable monthly amount offered by me in the letters outlining our proposals on xx, xx and xx.

 

If you now wish to make a counter proposal then please do so in writing as I will not be ringing you. It is not necessary to speak by phone. Written communication by post or e-mail is my preferred method of contact and I will NOT discuss the matter any further by phone or by personal contact with any doorstep caller. Do not send a doorstep caller to my home as I will refuse them permission to enter my property. Any breach of this will be trespass and any refusal to leave my property will be Breach of the Peace and the Police will be called.

 

I acknowledge receipt of the Default Notice dated xx demanding payment of the arrears within 14 days. I am not in a position to make the payment detailed as demanded within 14 days of the date of the Default Notice, i.e. before xx. Can you please clarify if this means the agreement is terminated as of xx (i.e. 14 days after the date of issue of the default notice) since if this is the case I will need to seek further advice from CCCS, CAB or other independent sources of advice. It is therefore important that you confirm my legal position regarding the termination or otherwise of the agreement as from the date from which I will have failed to comply with the demands detailed in the Default Notice.

 

Yours faithfully,,"

Edited September 9, 2010 by wilchil64
changed letter slightly

[wilchil64]

Hi BD,

 

Below is a draft of a letter to MBNA, could you let me know if this is ok, if anything missing etc. Thanks.

 

" Dear Sir or Madam,

Re.: Account xxx

 

Further to your letter dated xx, I deem you to have accepted my proposals by cashing my earlier cheques numbers xxx, xxx and xxx, each for £xx.xx being the revised affordable monthly amount offered by me in the letters outlining my proposals on xx, xx and xx.

 

Please clarify if your letter dated is a Default Notice.

 

Yours faithfully,"