We have so much debt, it seems only hope is selling house!

[wilchil64]

Thanks BD, makes sense to me. We'll get some letters put together.

 

Rhia, thanks also for your advice. I'm really grateful to you for taking the time to read my messages and help me.

 

By the way, am I posting in the right place or should I be starting a new thread? I've been posting here so that you can see the background as well.

[wilchil64]

Have drafted up those letters and will discuss with OH later. Can't tell you how satisfying it was!!!

[Rhia]

BD I'll take my hat off to you re this. As someone who has abviously fought back against a huge amount of debt I am sure you know exactly what works. In fact I am going to tip your scales. Look at BD's profile WilChil and I think you will see how much he (or she) has overcome - it will make you feel even better.

 

Perhaps we should retitle bd's strategy as Big Debtor's Charm Offensive!

[Bigdebtor]

Rhia

Thanks for that - I see I've no got 4 blobs - nice to get the recognition and feel I'm making a difference to those who need the help.

 

BTW - They might see it as a Charm Offensive - but I prefer to think of it as Offensive Charm!

 

Wilchil

It's your thread - so you can put whatever you like in it - no need to change anything yoiu are doing re CAG. You may have misunderstood what I was saying about looking at your tthread title - it was to remind you that you are no longer thinking about selling up and are now much more on top of things - well done!

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Despite all our letters stating we wish to correspond in writing and do not wish to give further details re. our I&E, all these companies seem to do is write back, saying "Ring us urgently re. this matter"!!!

 

M&S are one of the companies doing this - I addressed my last letter to head of Customer Services but got the same reply. As advised before here, I will send a letter to the Chief Executive's Office with copies of all my letters, stating basically the same.

 

Santander Cards are the same - but their letter crossed in the post with ours addressed to the Chief Executive's Office, so I'll wait for further correspondence from them.

 

Today in the post there were 3 (!) letters from M&S too, one is saying our account is overdue by £7.06 (!!!! - for this they have charged us £12 charges twice!) and they look forward to a payment by return and have reduced our credit limit~! Another is a statutory arrears notice to say 2 of our payments have been missed or were late (same shortfall of £7.06!!). And the third is a statement! What a waste of time, paper and money!!

 

Also in today's post a letter from MBNA in reply to our earlier letter (not the one I have sent this morning as discussed in my previous post, obviously!), again just repeating that they need our income, expenditures, names of other creditors and balances owed with each and to call them!

 

I guess these are all computer generated letters. Should I reply to MBNA with a letter saying no to all the things they requested addressed to the Chief Executive's Office, as was mentioned above?

 

Any advice how I can get through to them that I am not going to ring them and not going to provide I&E? If I have to, I'll keep sending out basically the same letters in reply each time, plus a cheque to them for the lower payment every month!

Edited August 23, 2010 by wilchil64
Received today's post with yet more letters! so added these in

[wilchil64]

Wilchil

It's your thread - so you can put whatever you like in it - no need to change anything yoiu are doing re CAG. You may have misunderstood what I was saying about looking at your tthread title - it was to remind you that you are no longer thinking about selling up and are now much more on top of things - well done!

BD

 

That's fine BD. I didn't misunderstand your reply but just wanted to be sure I was posting in the right place.

[wilchil64]

I'd be very grateful for some more help.

 

I've got a pile of letters that have built up this week.

 

First of all, I have letters from MBNA and Santander Cards but they were clearly sent out before my last letters was received so I will continue to send payments with nice letters, thanking them for accepting our proposals as recommended above to MBNA - will that be ok, do you think?

 

Santander Loans have sent a letter thanking for recent communication but without stating the date of my letter they are replying to! I have attached a copy. They say they'll not accept my proposal. What do I do now~? Offer more or continue to pay the same payment? They have been banking my cheques.

 

They also sent a standard letter informing of missed payment and recommending we contact national Debt Line or CCCS!!! Hypocrits!! (sp?)

 

Then I have 2 letters from the HFC bank, one is an arrears notice. The other is in reply to our letter (again not including the date of our letter), and ignoring it basically! ie. again requesting financial statement, I&E and payslips. What to do now?

 

Then I have lots of letters from M&S Money!

 

One is just standard "you failed to make a payment, we've charged you £12 ...".

 

One is a statutory arrears notice, "as 2 of your payments for your M&S card have been missed".

 

Another is informing us that our account is overdue by £7.06 (!!! very small amount, I think!) and requesting payment.

 

Another is re. our letter dated 5th August, I've attached a copy.

 

I'll be sending out payments with letters at the end of the month to all our creditors.

 

Thank you for your help!

santander loan 270810.PDF

MBNA 270810.PDF

M&S 270810.PDF

santander cards 270810.PDF

[Rhia]

Hello Wilchil...well that letter from Santander cards is ridiculous for a start - it must ignore all aspects of the Consumer Credit Act. I was hoping Big Debtor would guide you on this as, although I have had my own problems with such as MBNA, I have never had to deal with so many at one time.

One thing I have experienced is going along with a creditor with an income and expenditure form and they still turned it down. Honestly, my own view is, keep sending your monthly payments and a copy of your letter each time you send the payment.

In addition I would write a letter headed OFFICIAL COMPLAINT to the Head of Customer Services at each bank and complain about their actions. They are in breach of the OFT's debt collection guidance and the banking/lending codes (in particular) which states quite clearly how they should deal with your situation.

 

However I suspect that they will say they are trying to help but you won't send an income and expenditure form in. I am no expert on these and my gut feeling is they are worse than useless anyway. You could complain to the Financial Ombudsman and see if they will intervene on your behalf. Let me think on this one.

[Bigdebtor]

Wilchill

 

Sorry - been awful busy - and the CAG server turned me away a few times earlier today!

 

Fight fire with fire. If they're ignoring your letters then you just ignore theirs. Continue to send your "nice" letters thanking them for being so accomodating in accepting your cheques on the conditions proposed in your letters of XX June, XX July etc (and repeat them). After all their nasty letters could have crossed in the post with your nice ones and you would be within your rights to assume they would only cash your cheques if they accepted the terms that went with it.

 

I would tell the one suggesting you went to CCCS etc. that's exactly what you did - and your proposal is based on the CCCS advice. You have also been told you don't have to give them an I&E - but offer to give FOS one if they want FOS to arbitrate (that'll cost them £450 if FOS get involved - so might get them to back down).

 

I would write to the M&S boss (Rose?) telling him his lot are being unbelieveable - breaching FOS guidelines etc. (quote these verbatim - you can get them from Google) and see if you get a reply. If you can't find them then pm me and I'll send them to you.

 

As I said before, it won't be easy - but I would just continue to make the payments and enclose the nice letters. I really don't think they'll take you to court while they're getting something.

 

Finally with the really awkward ones, it's probably time to play hardball and CCA them - they might not even have an enforceable agreement in any case! If you think you've got loads of reclaimable charges and interest then SAR the biggest awkward (but not an obliging) culprit - and see what transpires here.

 

Good luck - just keep plodding on - things will get better.

 

REMEMBER You eat an elephant and a mouse in exactly the same way - reluctantly one bite at a time!

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Thanks for your replies, Rhia and BD.

 

I'm happy to just keep sending "nice" letters with payments once a month. I'm reluctant to send an I&E as I'm sure they'll just pick it apart despite the fact that it was OK'ed by CCCS. And I am sure it will make no difference, I'm guessing they're just sending out form letters.

 

Rhia, can you tell me in what way they are in breach of the OFTs debt collection guidance and the banking/lending codes?

 

I'll google the fos guidelines and write to the M&S boss.

 

BD, when you say CCA the really awkward ones, do you mean the ones who won't accept the lower payment? i.e. Santander loans and HFC. The HFC one was taken out a year ago and the Santander loan is about 3 years old I think. There are no charges on either yet, so nothing to reclaim. The only charges on any of these will be occurring about now or any day now!

 

For the Santander loan company, who have stated they won't accept my lower payment, should I keep sending that payment or should I offer a different amount, slightly higher?

 

Thanks again!

[Rhia]

Read the new Lending Code section 9 I think although it does state they want details of I&E. However as BD has said you have agreed this with CCCS and they are a nationally recognised body. I have attached the Lending Code for you.

 

I need to find the OFT guidelines. I had them on an old computer that died on me but will dig them out and attach. The more you know the better you are equipped to deal with these people.

 

And here is the link for the OFT's Debt Collection Guidelines. Hope they both help.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

 

lendingcode.pdf

Edited August 27, 2010 by Rhia
Add OFT link

[wilchil64]

Thanks Rhia, I'll read through those.

 

I did do the CCCS budget sheet online and worked out through that how much was still available, but decided to carry on alone from there instead of asking CCCS to sort it out - will this count against me? Also I have now changed the figures slightly, as I'm offering Sainsburys Bank a much lower amount, added an extra £100 into our budget to cover various things like car repairs,services, dentist, vet etc., hence having less available to divide between my creditors, although this won't affect any company other than Sainsburys. Will this be frowned on at some point if I have to show these figures to someone or in court or something? After all, the figures I am now using weren't actually agreed with CCCS.

 

Sorry, feel I'm asking stupid questions but don't want to do anything wrong which could land us in more trouble at a later date.

[Rhia]

They're not stupid questions - you need to know. Nothing to stop you going back to CCCS and explaining your changes due to need. Then at least you will be armed with figures that have their backing. THey aren't the be all and end all but I think they have a good standing and any creditor really should take notice of their calculations.

[Bigdebtor]

Thanks for your replies, Rhia and BD.

 

I'm happy to just keep sending "nice" letters with payments once a month. I'm reluctant to send an I&E as I'm sure they'll just pick it apart despite the fact that it was OK'ed by CCCS. And I am sure it will make no difference, I'm guessing they're just sending out form letters.

 

I AGREE. EITHER IGNORE AND CONTINUE WITH NICE LETTERS AND CHEQUES (BETTER) OR IF THEY PERSIST THEN TELL THEM YOU'RE HAPPY TO GIVE I&E TO FOS etc. TO ARBITRATE AS TO WHAT IS FAIR (OR SMALL CLAIMS COURT!) BUT NOT THEM.

 

Rhia, can you tell me in what way they are in breach of the OFTs debt collection guidance and the banking/lending codes?

 

I'll google the fos guidelines and write to the M&S boss.

 

BD, when you say CCA the really awkward ones, do you mean the ones who won't accept the lower payment? i.e. Santander loans and HFC. The HFC one was taken out a year ago and the Santander loan is about 3 years old I think. There are no charges on either yet, so nothing to reclaim. The only charges on any of these will be occurring about now or any day now!

 

OK- THEY'LL PROBABLY HAVE ENFORCEABLE CCA'S IF SO RECENT- SO NO PINT IN CCA OR SAR YET. LET'S KNOW IF YOU GET CHARGES AND WE'LL CHANGE TACK THEN.

For the Santander loan company, who have stated they won't accept my lower payment, should I keep sending that payment or should I offer a different amount, slightly higher?

 

IGNORE - KEEP SENDING SAME AMOUNT WITH NICE LETTER. BUILD UP A PATTERN OF THEM ACCEPTING YOUR PAYMENT ON YOUR TERMS. ALWAYS GET PROOF OF POSTING (FREE) OR SEND RECORDED.

 

Thanks again!

 

My suggestions above in bold.

[papasmurf1cx]

Just wanted to say I have read every post here on this thread and wanted first to encourage wilchill in her efforts and my admiration on how she is coping and to stick at it. Also to express my admiration to all who are advising. This has opened my eyes to what is possible. Well done everyone.

[wilchil64]

Thanks Papasmurf, I'm so glad I found this forum, there is no way I would have done any of this without these very helpful people - I can't spread enough reputation to show how appreciative I am!

[wilchil64]

They're not stupid questions - you need to know. Nothing to stop you going back to CCCS and explaining your changes due to need. Then at least you will be armed with figures that have their backing. THey aren't the be all and end all but I think they have a good standing and any creditor really should take notice of their calculations.

 

Good idea, thanks.

[wilchil64]

Thanks BD. I'll carry on with payments and nice letters.

 

 

IGNORE - KEEP SENDING SAME AMOUNT WITH NICE LETTER. BUILD UP A PATTERN OF THEM ACCEPTING YOUR PAYMENT ON YOUR TERMS. ALWAYS GET PROOF OF POSTING (FREE) OR SEND RECORDED. >>

 

So I can send a letter to Santander loans as below?

 

Thank you for accepting my proposals of XX/XX/2010 by accepting my payments of the reduced amount of £x per month on XX June and XX July (etc.). I now enclose cheque number XXXXX as the agreed payment for September as promised. You will recall that my offer was conditional on all future interest and charges being frozen and, whilst I know that by accepting such payments you have accepted my proposals and will have honoured this agreement in full on your part, I should be grateful if you would send me an up to date statement reflecting the freezing of interest and charges".

 

Thanks.

[Bigdebtor]

Thanks BD. I'll carry on with payments and nice letters.

 

 

IGNORE - KEEP SENDING SAME AMOUNT WITH NICE LETTER. BUILD UP A PATTERN OF THEM ACCEPTING YOUR PAYMENT ON YOUR TERMS. ALWAYS GET PROOF OF POSTING (FREE) OR SEND RECORDED. >>

 

So I can send a letter to Santander loans as below?

 

Thank you for accepting my proposals of XX/XX/2010 by accepting my payments of the reduced amount of £x per month on XX June and XX July (etc.). I now enclose cheque number XXXXX as the agreed payment for September as promised. You will recall that my offer was conditional on all future interest and charges being frozen and, whilst I know that by accepting such payments you have accepted my proposals and will have honoured this agreement in full on your part, I should be grateful if you would send me an up to date statement reflecting the freezing of interest and charges".

 

Thanks.

 

Wichill

 

Spot on - great letter - whoever put it together is a genius!

 

BD

 

PS - regarding changing your spreadsheet and the amount paid to Santander. Life keeps changing - you were too optimistic and forgot about unexpected 1-off charges - your new sheet is more realistic - I wouldn't get too hung up on getting CCS "approval" to the changes, especially with the ones who are ignoring your proposals in any case.

 

CCCS are not entirely on your side. They are funded by the banks and their key objective is to get the debts repaid at a pace you can afford without involving courts. Giving you a bit of peace of mind and protection is just a by product for them. They will not help with reclaiming charges, getting into the realms of unenforceable CCA's, dodgy DN's, involving FOS, FSA, OFT or fighting with CRA's etc.

 

I believe your fellow CAGGERS are a better source of complete help - but it does no harm to have your proposals backed by a CCCs reference no.

[wilchil64]

Thanks BD. By the way, at no time have I quoted my CCCS reference no. to any of my creditors, should I do so? Would it help in any way?

 

I didn't realise CCCS are funded by the banks, presumed they were government funded in some way ...

[Bigdebtor]

I would definitely quote my CCCS Number. I always did so as it gives more credibility to your claim that you're doing your best to get back on track with your finances - especially if they were to go to court - which I am convinced they won't do as long as they are getting something (even £1) every month.

 

I'm not sayiong CCCS are 5th columnists - biased in favour of the banks - they do a good job in taking a lot of stress out of situations like yours and mine - but their aims are more limited than that of fellow CAGGERS.

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Thanks BD. If I quote my CCCS number, does that mean they can access my budget, I&Es online - the number I have from CCCS is the one I use to log on with and gives full access to my figures, I'm fairly sure.

[Bigdebtor]

I haven't heard of that - would be surprised if it was so insecure (no password needed as well as reg no?) - but phone CCCS and double check. I have always just dealt with CCCS via free phone 0800 number - never online.

[wilchil64]

I've just checked and the only reference number I have with CCCS is a web reference number which just gives access to the details I provided online. I've emailed them asking how to get a reference number that I can give to creditors, so will wait to hear from them. The web reference is all that is needed to access the online details with no password! Very insecure I know. Having said that, each time I have struggled to find where to enter this web reference to change my budget sheet and cannot find it at all today!

 

No, I tell a lie I have just found it here: https://debtremedy.cccs.co.uk/start.aspx

Edited August 31, 2010 by wilchil64
Added info

[wilchil64]

I've just written all the letters with cheques for September.

 

These are all the charges that have been applied to the accounts so far (all recent):

 

HFC loan - £5 administration fee for late payment (this company only one not to cash cheque I sent, but returned it to us).

 

Santander card - charged £12 on 16/08/10, £12 on 16/07/10 and £12 on 17/06/10, all are late payment fees (they are cashing our lower payment cheques though).

 

MBNA card - late default charge of £12 on 23/07/10. (cashed our cheque though).

 

M&S Money credit card - late fee of £12 on 18/08/10 (cashed our cheques though).

 

The others (Sainsburys loan and Santander loan) haven't applied any charges to the accounts - yet! Next are accepting lower payments and not applying charges or interest to my account.

 

Should I change tack for the companies applying charges or should I just take this on the chin and keep sending lower payments (not going to get anywhere fast with repaying the amounts that way, though)?

 

Re. M&S - we only owe them £460 or similar - can we make a full and final settlement offer for them yet or is it too early? Can I make F&F offers on any of the other small ones (Next and HFC) or is that more likely to be accepted after a longer period of time has elapsed?

 

Thanks for your help!