Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes

[HYMN AND MI]

Agreed with green and mean. Oh yes, there is every reason to challenge, and RBK do consider informal ones and their paperwork to date is highly suspect, as well as several other matters. Couple of cases pending at PATAS, I believe.

Edited January 22, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[pixie1809]

Thanks for both of your replies - I have not see the PCN as my friend has it - she just called me about it as she was upset at having received it and asking me if I knew when we had been in a bus lane, which I did not.

 

From looking at Google (which I realise may not show the current road markings or signage), it must have been when we turned left out of the M&S car park bit of St James' Road and left onto Eden Street (in error), as this is the only bit on Google which shows a part of the road with 'Bus Lane' written in it. This error took us on a detour past a pedestrian crossing and up to a little mini roundabout. We bared left at that roundabout and went past Heals and the banks, following the road round until we were sat opposite Wilkinson, at which point we followed the one way system round (down under a dip bit - I know that's a really naff explanation, but I do not know Kingston any better than this) and past the bus garage so that we could get back round to the roundabout that leads up Penrhyn Road - if that makes sense.

 

I have asked my friend to bring round the PCN when she visits me later, so I could post more details then.

 

I know that G&M has previously posted a letter - is this still the one to use for appealing? I admit to being fairly confused by the legalities surrounding signage and other traffic regulation references. I would appreciate any advice as to the technicalities that appear to need to be mentioned in the appeal.

 

I note that you have also advised taking photos - is this necessary as we do not live near Kingston and had only gone there on that day as one-off trip to somewhere a bit different from normal, so it will need to be another planned trip to go back?

 

Kind regards.

[green_and_mean]

Thanks for both of your replies - I have not see the PCN as my friend has it - she just called me about it as she was upset at having received it and asking me if I knew when we had been in a bus lane, which I did not.

 

From looking at Google (which I realise may not show the current road markings or signage), it must have been when we turned left out of the M&S car park bit of St James' Road and left onto Eden Street (in error), as this is the only bit on Google which shows a part of the road with 'Bus Lane' written in it. This error took us on a detour past a pedestrian crossing and up to a little mini roundabout. We bared left at that roundabout and went past Heals and the banks, following the road round until we were sat opposite Wilkinson, at which point we followed the one way system round (down under a dip bit - I know that's a really naff explanation, but I do not know Kingston any better than this) and past the bus garage so that we could get back round to the roundabout that leads up Penrhyn Road - if that makes sense.

 

I have asked my friend to bring round the PCN when she visits me later, so I could post more details then.

 

I know that G&M has previously posted a letter - is this still the one to use for appealing? I admit to being fairly confused by the legalities surrounding signage and other traffic regulation references. I would appreciate any advice as to the technicalities that appear to need to be mentioned in the appeal.

 

I note that you have also advised taking photos - is this necessary as we do not live near Kingston and had only gone there on that day as one-off trip to somewhere a bit different from normal, so it will need to be another planned trip to go back?

 

Kind regards.

 

Dont bother going back for photos all we need to know is where the contravention took place and hopefully a copy of the PCN. I assume you parked in the Eden walk car park above MS and turned left out of union street ignoring the no left turn sign? If need be I can pop into Kingston at some point and view the CCTV footage so no need to worry about that. I would hold back on the letter until we know where in Eden street she was spotted.

[pixie1809]

I have now seen a copy of my friend's PCN notice.

It states that on 15th Jan 2011 at 18:19 in Eden Street her vehicle was observed by camera operator number KT078 and that a Penalty Charge is payable under Code 34J - Vehicle Seen Contravening Bus Lane Regulations (Being in a Bus Lane).

 

It does not state which bit of Eden Street, but as I have said before, I think it was when we came out of the M&S Car Park where she turned left in error instead of travelling straight ahead.

 

I am not sure if this helps any further?

 

Kind regards.

[green_and_mean]

Isn't there a photo on the PCN?

[HYMN AND MI]

This is a tough one if she turned left as you say. Kingston do not usually attach photos to their bus lane PCN's. Your friend needs to phone for the evidence which should be received next day. When that happens, they usually extend the discount period. Of course, as a new member, you are hampered by not being allowed to post up the PCN at the moment, right?

[RBKsuck]

Is this a new twist?

 

After more than a year I have finally concluded this with the adjudicator recently ruling in my favour.

 

The new twist in the whole saga was that it was kicked out on the grounds of lack of photographic/video evidence to show clearly what markings and signage were in place at the time of the offence. RBK video evidence, from the high camera opposite to old Post Office showed my car in the alleged bus lane BUT they were unable to produce matching evidence from the other camera (above Chinese) to match the time. In other words they used some old footage! In any event this later camera does not sufficiently pan to see a clear image of the sign face on. In other words there could be a pole with a defaced or missing sign, as it records a side view.

 

Make of this what you will. Are the council incompetent and have no understanding of their legal obligations or own Code of Conduct? Or is it an attempt to contrive evidence?

 

During this whole waste of time my solicitor expressed doubts over the July 2009 Order in which the council misspell St Jamess Road. He also discovered that the new ‘rotating’ sign used to re-sign the alleged (nearly 24hour) bus lane is switched during the early hours of the morning to allow traffic leaving the night club area to depart along Eden Street. In fact travel the wrong way up a one way street!

 

BTW It appears the PATAS team are running about 8 weeks behind.

[HYMN AND MI]

Hello, Happy New Year and congratulations. Do you have a decision or would you rather post privately. There are two cases very pending, which is why I am asking. A previous case has been allowed on old pictures and failure to provide evidence. Thanks in advance. Could you give us a breakdown of your arguments, please? Are you going for costs? Would you be interested in contacting Martin George at the Surrey Comet?

Edited January 25, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[RBKsuck]

To be honest I’m fed up with it all and was at the point of paying up so it would go away.

 

What makes me really cross is that talking to these RBK people, none of them live in the borough and they walk past this every morning. I am fuming that this is MY borough. I pay £2400 a year in council tax and how much is being squandered on Court costs, admin and general refunds.

 

Furthermore RBK relies on shopping and general business in town and just how many money spending visitors have been put off returning to the town to spend or make money for other business. If RBK carry on like this IT WILL impact on shoppers and at a time when the business in the town need spending customers more than ever.

 

I led with the argument of the markings according 17.2 and the start commencing half way across the junction. I was later asked by the adjudicator if I had any further information to add and I hit them with the entire list. They went for the lack of CCTV in the end, basically incomplete.

 

Yes going for costs, my solicitors fees are nearly £600, at least I would like this back. What an appalling and totally ridiculous position at time when every penny is needed by the borough for proper services.

 

Will send other details later, I don’t want them to see anything.

[HYMN AND MI]

Seconded. I am a bit concerned that in all these cases, quite a lot of paperwork errors are missed at PATAS! Kingston and I are finished - both the council and the town! Plenty of advice on PATAS site re costs.

Edited January 26, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[frontseatdriver]

Even more people will be oveer with RBK when they put evening parking spaces are up to £2 after 6.30pm!

 

Hopefully RBK will be over this bus lane by time they have been to PATAS twice in a week!

[RBKsuck]

They need the extra money to pay for the costs and refunds.

We now don’t go to Apple Market to buy bread but go to Hinchley Wood. Also discovered very good Butchers and Fruit/Veg so £40 a week not spent in the Royal Borough.

[amraphster]

I have just received a penalty charge notice, Code 34J, Vehicle Seen Contravening Bus Lane Regulations, in Eden Street after 6pm on a weekday evening. I did not see any sign. There was barely any traffic, I drove up the road by the river, followed the road past the Rose Theatre and all the way up, curved to the right and kept going, followed the road up Eden St. I needed to turn left into the parking lot behind the Kingston CAB (I was volunteering that night), and got stuck between two buses while trying to turn left in front of Neville House. One of them honked, but I did not know why. I follow the law, and cannot believe I have been slapped with this costly penalty. Had I seen a sign, I would have followed it. I ma told by friends that I am guilty and just have to pay the fine. However, this doesn't sit right with me. I have been driving for 17 years and I did not see any signage indicating this was a bus lane, not at all. Do I have a shot at fighting this?

[HYMN AND MI]

Short answer: yes. See the success stories. First thing to do is to submit an informal challenge within 14 days. When was the date of the PCN?

[amraphster]

PCN dated 25/1/2011

Sorry for my confusion in following the thread, I am not clear on my grounds for disputing this-- Eden St is not legally a bus lane? Or lack of signage? Is there a sample letter someone can share with me (feel free to redact personal info) so I can draft my dispute? do I need to request evidence? Any help would be greatly appreciated! I cannot afford a solicitor but would really like to dispute this if I can. I pay counsel fees and bring business to RBK and am so angry!

[HYMN AND MI]

There are various issues re the lane: signage, whether it is a lane, Traffic Order but you have to do some homework or any letter will be to no avail in the long run.

[frontseatdriver]

So so so so so many grounds to dispute it on.

 

What evening was it?

 

I would request evidence first - just make sure they have it right in the first place!

[HYMN AND MI]

Agreed. but when you request stills or an appointment to see the video evidence - which MUST show your vehicle passing through the sign - be aware that it is best to do this at last possible moment before the 14 days are up because they will extend period from when they receive your initial reply. So, buy time.

[amraphster]

Thank you all, I have just phoned them and requested evidence. They are mailing me still photos, and I can request to see the video if I am not satisfied with them, with extension for the reply.

[HYMN AND MI]

See the video and I would take someone with you. One of us might be prepared. It MUST show the vehicle passing through the signs. Make no comment if you go alone and see their code of conduct on the internet/code of practice re CCTV

[green_and_mean]

PCN dated 25/1/2011

Sorry for my confusion in following the thread, I am not clear on my grounds for disputing this-- Eden St is not legally a bus lane? Or lack of signage? Is there a sample letter someone can share with me (feel free to redact personal info) so I can draft my dispute? do I need to request evidence? Any help would be greatly appreciated! I cannot afford a solicitor but would really like to dispute this if I can. I pay counsel fees and bring business to RBK and am so angry!

 

It depends on which section you were in really neither are correct but both (before and after Brook st jct) have different arguments.

[pixie1809]

Yes - new member, so cannot post my friend's pcn. There is no photo on it, so I'm going to get her to phone tomorrow to try and obtain it.

 

I can see us probably splitting the £60 fine and just paying it though in the end though. My friend is too worried about not being able to get the fine retracted and ending up having to pay the full £120.

 

I don't think I will be persuading her to go to Kingston ever again! Not that I'm sure they'll be losing any sleep over that.

 

Like all on here, it was a pure error, made without realising. It's just a costly one.

[HYMN AND MI]

Well that is sad because most people who challenge this particular bus lane contravention get off. I, and others, are proud to be members of the "1% Club" - we fight and 60% of us win. Unfortunately, the 99% give in before they even attempt to get to grips with the issues, which aren't that hard to understand.

 

There has just been a successful PATAS ruling. Two more are pending. As I keep saying, and I note the anger from council tax payers, get on the phone to Martin George of the Surrey Comet. Do believe something more will be appearing soon. There have been now 6 PATAS hearings, 4 of which the appeals have been allowed. In the 2 lost, the arguments used were rubbish and deserved to lose. Not so on forums such as this. Keep going. And I have seen all the decisions.

Edited January 27, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[green_and_mean]

See the video and I would take someone with you. One of us might be prepared. It MUST show the vehicle passing through the signs. Make no comment if you go alone and see their code of conduct on the internet/code of practice re CCTV

 

There is no requirement to be seen passing the signs, not sure where you got that from.

[HYMN AND MI]

From PATAS decisions and the one last week! If the adjudicator does not have evidence of the vehicle actually passing the warning sign (camera from rear, in this case), s/he is not going to be convinced a contravention occurred. PATAS require evidence that the signage in place is contemporary to the date and time of the alleged contravention. In the last one, I do know that the camera from the river end did not provide such information.

Edited January 27, 2011 by HYMN AND MI