welcome and multiple rolled loans **WON**

[dx100uk]

no keep quiet don't tip them off

 

dx

[IainHL]

Mark,

 

 

My opinion, based like you, on much reading around the site.

• You can ignore the letter, it is just waffle, pretty much like any random DCA letter trying to get you to contact them.
  
• The Default Notice is defective. (The use of the term "14 days" instead of an actual date 14 days after service, which would be deemed to be the 12th as 4 working days after it got into the postal system by second class post.)
  
• Sit tight and wait for them to take some action that can be construed as termination by Welcome because it involves them asking for the full sum outstanding before it is due. Then write to them accepting that termination.
  
• The fact that your case is in dispute and with FOS probably means Welcome should not have sent you a default notice. But then do you really expect Welcome to be able to tell their a*** from their e**** in these matters?
  

When you write to them accepting the termination may be the point at which you wish to point out the defective default notice and try to begin negotiations with them. There is an argument that you should leave such information until later in the process.

 

If your case is with FOS you will already know this is a slow "game". I wrote the CCA request to my creditors almost exactly a year ago, thinking everything would be over in 3 to 4 months. Here I am a year later only paying 4 out of the 8, and still writing letters as necessary. Now my advice to people would be to be prepared for the long haul, stick to your guns, keep writing letters as required (whether to fend off the next DCA or to try and persuade the OC to actually take you to court), and ultimately be prepared to wait the 6 years until the debt is statute barred.

[beyondhope]

This is purely my opinion on what ive researched since my bunky DN - its usual welcome cr@p the allowable 14 days cannot be argued with its in the act and thats the end of it, mine was actually terminated 2 days before the end of the 14 days I should have been allowed This is one of my arguements in court so ill be sure to let you go should it get that far (claim going in a week today if no adequate response) The main point is there is no margin of error allowed on their side as they are a company with the resources to get paperwork correct especially a legal document such as a default notice hope that helps a little

[mark1arby]

Mark,

 

 

My opinion, based like you, on much reading around the site.

• You can ignore the letter, it is just waffle, pretty much like any random DCA letter trying to get you to contact them.
  
• The Default Notice is defective. (The use of the term "14 days" instead of an actual date 14 days after service, which would be deemed to be the 12th as 4 working days after it got into the postal system by second class post.)
  
• Sit tight and wait for them to take some action that can be construed as termination by Welcome because it involves them asking for the full sum outstanding before it is due. Then write to them accepting that termination.
  
• The fact that your case is in dispute and with FOS probably means Welcome should not have sent you a default notice. But then do you really expect Welcome to be able to tell their a*** from their e**** in these matters?
  

When you write to them accepting the termination may be the point at which you wish to point out the defective default notice and try to begin negotiations with them. There is an argument that you should leave such information until later in the process.

 

If your case is with FOS you will already know this is a slow "game". I wrote the CCA request to my creditors almost exactly a year ago, thinking everything would be over in 3 to 4 months. Here I am a year later only paying 4 out of the 8, and still writing letters as necessary. Now my advice to people would be to be prepared for the long haul, stick to your guns, keep writing letters as required (whether to fend off the next DCA or to try and persuade the OC to actually take you to court), and ultimately be prepared to wait the 6 years until the debt is statute barred.

 

Thank You V much Ian. I always knew from reading around CAG that this would always be a Slow process. I am prepared to put in the time it takes to squash these ****. I need something to fill my time anyway.

 

Your explanation will help everyone who gets a `Defective DN` so I am very grateful for your input.

 

Yes, we do seem to have opened a `Can of Worms` as far as debt and other DCA`s are concerned and I quite enjoy doing the required research and writing letters as and when needed. We can not do anything else other than what we have tried to do about the unfortunate situation we find our selves in.

 

I am sure I read on someones post somewhere, that the `Defective DN` is classed as Termination in it`s own right? But we will wait for the actual Termination Notice.

 

The case being that FOS are involved causes me some concern though. I know they have made a BIG Mistake by sending this, as you say *rse and Elbow. lol. It slightly muddies what we should do now. Although if we Ignore the thought of FOF being involved and do nothing in that direction, then our situation and reaction to it, becomes the same as would be `Normal` in this situation.

 

Another one is if we have to Prove when we received the letter. How do we do that? Hopefully the `Code` numbers on the front of the envelope will be of some help? Should be I think.

 

Cheers, MARK

[grantyblade]

Some fantastic work there guys and gals. Some vvvv useful links and info to help us all out with constructing our arguments further. Really appreciate it.

 

It really is a laughable mess they are getting themselves into. They are as confused as me I guess at what they are attempting to do or what status peoples accounts are. Live? Terminated? In dispute?

 

Does seem many new DN's sent out last week. I recieved my 2nd! 1st sent 24/12/09. Xmas eve!!! I'll let you work out whe i recieved my TN!! 14 days they gave me. You think that included all the non-post days like xmas day, 26th & 27th (bank hols) then the weekend plus new year. It's a hoot. Therefore DN - invlaid. & TN invalid. Plus i'd made my regular payment on 31st/12/9. i VT'd them in feb on basis their TN was invalid, but wouldn't accept. So I accepted their unlawful repudiation. Now they send 2nd DN dated 3/4/10 (recieved 10th). So again is my account terminated? Live? terminated? live? terminated? live? if it was live surely my VT should stand? WHAT A JOKE!!

[LindaBenno]

recieved one of these famous dn myself on monday.I phoned them to see what was going on as i had made my payment on friday thay said just ignore this notice and carry on making your monthly payments and nothing will happen to you but if you miss a payment a couple of months down the line then we will not issue another notice we will just apply to the court. I said fine so you still use this dn even though all the figures wouldnt be correct coz i would have paid a lot more than what you are saying i have paid his reply we will alter it before we issue court proceddings. My reply ok thats fine you do that has this conversation has just been taped and i will be keeping a copy of this original dn.

[beyondhope]

recieved one of these famous dn myself on monday.I phoned them to see what was going on as i had made my payment on friday thay said just ignore this notice and carry on making your monthly payments and nothing will happen to you but if you miss a payment a couple of months down the line then we will not issue another notice we will just apply to the court. I said fine so you still use this dn even though all the figures wouldnt be correct coz i would have paid a lot more than what you are saying i have paid his reply we will alter it before we issue court proceddings. My reply ok thats fine you do that has this conversation has just been taped and i will be keeping a copy of this original dn.

 

who do they think they are altering legal documents

[Sodem Hall 2]

I cant believe it, I have just received my second DN for the car, the first I received in Nov 09 and ignored but phoned local office and arranged to pay extra each month. Well local office now gone and have been redundant for a while so no payments made. Just received a new DN but all the info is exactly the same as the Nov DN. It states that the amount paid is less than a third but lower down it has the correct amount paid which is about a thousand more than a third. I hope they act on the wrong figure and repo, they are probably dumb enough for that. Just had to spend 600 on MOT and not sure whether to spend more doing bits that are wrong if they may turn up any day and take car.

[mark1arby]

recieved one of these famous dn myself on monday.I phoned them to see what was going on as i had made my payment on friday thay said just ignore this notice and carry on making your monthly payments and nothing will happen to you but if you miss a payment a couple of months down the line then we will not issue another notice we will just apply to the court. I said fine so you still use this dn even though all the figures wouldnt be correct coz i would have paid a lot more than what you are saying i have paid his reply we will alter it before we issue court proceddings. My reply ok thats fine you do that has this conversation has just been taped and i will be keeping a copy of this original dn.

 

Why do you feel the need to have a conversation with them? I really wish people would take the advice they are given!!!

 

You have quite obviously read this thread and others on the matter of `Dodgy/ Defective DN`s)!!! Do you think the advice given to everyone else to just sit and wait for the follow up `Termination Letters` doesn`t apply to you???

 

I am sorry if I appear to be a little Harsh here, OR Rude, BUT I am really Concerned that your `One Move` may well have caused a `Thousand Cock Ups` for your Fellow Caggers!!!

 

It is Said Many, Many Times, and in my opinion is Very Good Advice, Make sure you post everything you intend to do to the Forum for Discussion and Approval as being the Correct way to handle any given situation!!!

 

This `Warning` you have given them that they may face problems with the DN`s recently issued could result in them `Finding` the Only Possible Way Out for them!!!

 

Hopefully the `Time Scale` they have given us will not Allow them to Rectify this `Mistake` on time, and we can ALL just get back to sitting and waiting!!!

 

Sorry, But I am Not Happy!!!

 

Cheers, MARK

[IainHL]

I am sure I read on someones post somewhere, that the `Defective DN` is classed as Termination in it`s own right? But we will wait for the actual Termination Notice.

My understanding is that opinion is incorrect. It is the defective DN that makes their subsequent termination unlawful recission of contract.

 

Another one is if we have to Prove when we received the letter. How do we do that? Hopefully the `Code` numbers on the front of the envelope will be of some help? Should be I think.

The point is you won't have to prove when you received the letter. It is up to Welcome to prove they sent it, their computer system will show when it was dated. Since they didn't use a tracked service it is deemed as 2 (1st class) or 4 (2nd class) working days after the date of posting. Personally I just write the received date on all the letters I receive for good measure.

 

But all that is moot anyway. The regulations are quite clear that the default notice must contain an actual date, and that date must be at least 14 days after service. The use of "14 days" in itself, and completely, renders the DN defective.

[IainHL]

Does seem many new DN's sent out last week. I recieved my 2nd! 1st sent 24/12/09. Xmas eve!!! I'll let you work out whe i recieved my TN!! 14 days they gave me. You think that included all the non-post days like xmas day, 26th & 27th (bank hols) then the weekend plus new year. It's a hoot. Therefore DN - invlaid. & TN invalid. Plus i'd made my regular payment on 31st/12/9. i VT'd them in feb on basis their TN was invalid, but wouldn't accept. So I accepted their unlawful repudiation. Now they send 2nd DN dated 3/4/10 (recieved 10th). So again is my account terminated? Live? terminated? live? terminated? live? if it was live surely my VT should stand? WHAT A JOKE!!

If you did indeed receive a Termination Notice, that is it. Account terminated. No wonder they wouldn't accept your Voluntary Termination, since they had already terminated there was no agreement for you to voluntarily terminate. Understand?

Similarly they cannot issue a second Default Notice, since there is no active agreement, expressed far more eloquently by BRW in one of his posts.

 

I believe you have 2 choices now, sit and wait for them to take you to court, or start action against them yourself. postggj is the expert on this, if you haven't already start your own thread and PM postggj.

 

Oh, and don't pay them a penny more!

[LindaBenno]

Why do you feel the need to have a conversation with them? I really wish people would take the advice they are given!!!

 

You have quite obviously read this thread and others on the matter of `Dodgy/ Defective DN`s)!!! Do you think the advice given to everyone else to just sit and wait for the follow up `Termination Letters` doesn`t apply to you???

 

I am sorry if I appear to be a little Harsh here, OR Rude, BUT I am really Concerned that your `One Move` may well have caused a `Thousand Cock Ups` for your Fellow Caggers!!!

 

It is Said Many, Many Times, and in my opinion is Very Good Advice, Make sure you post everything you intend to do to the Forum for Discussion and Approval as being the Correct way to handle any given situation!!!

 

This `Warning` you have given them that they may face problems with the DN`s recently issued could result in them `Finding` the Only Possible Way Out for them!!!

 

Hopefully the `Time Scale` they have given us will not Allow them to Rectify this `Mistake` on time, and we can ALL just get back to sitting and waiting!!!

 

Sorry, But I am Not Happy!!!

 

Cheers, MARK

 

 

I know you say put everything on here first but i was very angry that i had got one of these considering i am only one months payment in arrears and i had just paid my monthly payment and a third of my arrears. I am not in the same positions as half of the people on this forum i know they play dirty tricks as i have learned since requesting my sar. I am very sorry but i dont think i have give welcome any reason to stop sending these faulty dns as they dont even seem to think that these are faulty.As we both know mark welcome read these forums so what is to say that all these posts havent informed them.

[mark1arby]

I know you say put everything on here first but i was very angry that i had got one of these considering i am only one months payment in arrears and i had just paid my monthly payment and a third of my arrears. I am not in the same positions as half of the people on this forum i know they play dirty tricks as i have learned since requesting my sar. I am very sorry but i dont think i have give welcome any reason to stop sending these faulty dns as they dont even seem to think that these are faulty.As we both know mark welcome read these forums so what is to say that all these posts havent informed them.

 

Look Linda I surely Do Not Need to get in to an Argument With You!!! BUT I am Very Angry Too!!! So when you spoke to them nothing was mentioned about the DN being Defective OR Dodgy???

 

I Accept that because the **** Read these Forums could Well Alert them to Any Problems they may Encounter!!! It is Just the thought that for the First Time in Literally Months I WAS Feeling Rather Pleased, that there is A Good Chance, not only for Myself, but for Many Others to Have these *ASTARDS Over!!!

 

It Is And Will Always Be Great Advice Not to Get into Conversation With Them!!! Even if They Admit things that are Recorded by You!!! That Won`t Help Anyone Else!!!

 

Now!!! That Hopefully is the End of It, And we can get Back to Collating Everyone's Thoughts and Ideas!!! And Together We Can ALL of Us See the **** Off to where things like them should exist. At the Bottom of a Very Deep Slurry Pit!!!

 

Cheers, MARK

[andys123]

Mark1arby, some of your advice is invaluable but it appears that everbody on here is playing the waiting game, waiting for Welcome to hang themselves but people just want a resolution their own problems and hoping that some legislation may or may not be the 'final nail in the coffin' could lead to a long drawn out affair with the end result being that people may be in a worse situation than they already are.

 

Withholding any purported 'secret' deficiencies in their notices will not make the forthcoming battles any easier.

[emandcole]

Think it really amounts to a very difficult game of who blinks first, and yes it is a pain in the behind but if you're in debt and are benefiting from potential irregularities resulting from avoidable errors by the creditor I feel it can often be all any of us can hope for, all things considered. Lets face it, Welcome won't just write it all off as it's a bit too much to deal with .

 

Not had dealings with Welcome but having followed many of the threads on them it's probably unlikely that many account holders will ever see an easy end to their disputes as Welcome seem to be aware that much of their paperwork is worthless.

 

On the other hand how many account holders really want to go to court as aggressors when the onus of proof is generally stacked against the claimant...it being harder to attack than defend?

 

In light of these difficulties it's perhaps best to bide your time, do your research and get the advice you need from CAG and any other source you trust. Hey, all the time Welcome sit on their hands deliberating their futures and course of action only allows more time towards limitation, another eventual way out for those who have truly been victims of irregularity and confusion.

[mark1arby]

Mark1arby, some of your advice is invaluable but it appears that everbody on here is playing the waiting game, waiting for Welcome to hang themselves but people just want a resolution their own problems and hoping that some legislation may or may not be the 'final nail in the coffin' could lead to a long drawn out affair with the end result being that people may be in a worse situation than they already are.

 

Withholding any purported 'secret' deficiencies in their notices will not make the forthcoming battles any easier.

 

Look People I for one Do Not need this!!! It is Very Appreciated by Me that All Disputes are Potentially Different and Can be Dealt with How and When You Choose!!! BUT Please Think First!!!

 

I Can Do Nothing About Just how Long People Wait For Advice!!! You Could End Up Waiting for Ever For The Advice you Want To Hear!!!

 

Each Person Can do As They See Fit!!! Do Not Though Go Ruining What I Feel Was A VERY BIG Step To Getting These *RSEHOLES Out Of My Life Once And For All....

 

If I Effect My Own Problems By Mis Interpreting Advice Then That Is Up To ME!!! My Battles Have So Far Been Hard Enough Thank You!!! If I Effect Someone Else By My Actions Then I Am In the Wrong!!!

 

My Advice Is Just That Advice, and Is To Be Treated As Such!!!

 

Now!!! Is There Anybody Else Who Wants To Turn What Should Just Be Forgotten Immediately In To Some Sort Of SAGA???

 

Am I Not Supposed to Point Out What May Have Upset Me??? Can Everyone Else Be Upset But God Forbid If Mark Is Bothered By Something!!!

 

This Does Not Require Any Sort Of Reply But If You Feel The Need? Then Please Do, Bring It On!!!

 

Cheers, MARK

[lynn74uk]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply to my thread i haven't got mine in dispute yet was waitin for a letter done on my post but by reading through yours realise some ppl must be on holiday still. Do you think i should just wait for them to get back and hopefully help me with the letter or do i try and do something about this letter i am a bit worried as it is a secured loan on my house

[andys123]

Not a response to anyone in particular but....this is an open forum where people do share advice and feedback any news/info that may have been obtained and to inform people of any, if any, progress and not to vent any frustrations when people may/may not jeopardise an individuals particular issue.

 

Anyway...let's move on.

[BEBOBEBO]

I'm aware of the regulations regarding dates on the DN etc but has anyone out there had one of these deemed ineffective by a legal professional? Solicitor ? Judge etc?.

[andys123]

I've looked and can't find any....another case of hoping that someone, somewhere has them deemed ineffective.

[emandcole]

Certainly, I for one had a default declared invalid by a judge. This resulted in the claimant eventually discontinuing so if you have an invalid DN and the creditor terminated do not be scared of using it in the appropriate manner if the need arises. Just ensure you are up to speed with the rules and regulations and can present a solid argument.

[BEBOBEBO]

Thanks for that emandcole was down to the date error? there seems to be a few people who have had these including myself. I know welcome are not the brightest of buttons but are they really that stupid to keep issuing these dodgy DN's, surely they must have a legal dept who draws up these documents.

[emandcole]

Primarily the date yes, however the amount would have been wrong also, not the judge was bothered by that as he'd seen enough. You need to bear that in mind to some extent when you get various letters. It's only when matters get relatively serious that anyone who's even considered doing their law degree for starters get's anywhere near your account. So, as for 'legal' departments I'm afraid the legal profession is often guilty of being one of the over inflated and self important areas to work in.

 

Lots of latin, risk of megalomania as it can be very insular, along with its little clubs at a higher level, progression comparable to a glacier flow and names having to fit in order to get anywhere = check me out .

 

That's why you end up with such inane letters from various 'legal departments' and 'litigation specialists' when in fact it's just some kid with a City & Guilds in paper shuffling pushing f6 on the keyboard and doing lots of mail merges. As for the composition of the important stuff like Default Notices yes you'd think they'd make some attempt to get them right wouldn't you?

 

Thing is they send them by the thousand every year and generally speaking there are still far too many people who have no idea what a correct default notice should look like...law of averages states most people will just freak out and either pay or roll over later if litigation starts.

 

That's the beauty of CAG, now you know exactly what rights are afforded to you. That's not debt avoidance (for any new people on here who appear to have an issue with the forum, its posters and its objectives) that's simply education. If you need to check yours out you know you can always ask on here and someone will be able to offer their opinion .

[annabella7]

Hi all,

Is a termination notice the same as 'Final Demand' My DN dated on 24th of June to be paid by 9th July. My Final Demand dated 28th July stating I had 7 days.

[dx100uk]

no.

and both of those dates are too short to recitify the issue.

 

dx