Credit Ref Agency reply to DPA s.12 request-help please

[jamesbond]

i fail to see how you feel you are beyond the letter of the law irrespective of how many awards you hold. my brother in law holds a consumer credit license but is not above the letter of the law.!! in reality you are i beileve a business like any other company granted a consumer credit license and are bound by the terms of the data protection and consumer credit laws as laid down in those laws, as are we.

[jamesbond]

bar the exclusions in schedule 2 which are very restrictive...they can only disclose data with your permission..., given when an application is made with a credit company, how are they able to maintain that agreement for the six year period that they use if your agreement is terminated in less than that period? surely your agreement ended there and with it there rights of disclosure?

[jamesbond]

also when we do agree to allow data to be shared with a credit ref agency i have not read one that defines any 6 year term from completion or default of an agreement...correct me if i am wong? does this not breech your agreement and question the validity of the data you relay?

[jamesbond]

james..i recently paid 2.50 on my credit card over the phone to experian to receive a copy of my credit reference file...thought it would speed things up a little rather that send postal order..you replied four days later requesting further documents which must be original and include bank or credit card or mortgage statements...photocopies can not be accepted...plus a copy of either a passport, birth certificate or full driving license..now everyone must appreciate that they are very confidential documents you are requesting and i see no mention of if these will be returned to me via special delivery as i really wouldnt like to send them any other way due to the sensitive nature of these documents, and the risk of their loss. so my original cost has now arisen to 4.10 for special delivery and 2.50 for my credit card application? why is it if i had paid you 10 quid on my credit card on the phone i could have had all this info the next day on my computor screen with out further checks? it appears that this is no more than an attempt to extract more money from me by making it difficult to onbtain my files held by you asking for highly personal information, when you know it has been ordered on a credit card in my name and is being sent to an address which is on your file and has been for five years...i dispatched my 2 pounds postal order to equifax and it was with me within 4 days?? i look forward to your response on this matter beingas you were voted business of the year or whatever?

[jamesbond]

i have read fully your disclosure rights and cannot see any statements regarding wanting all the highly confidential documents you request..even the dpa states reasonable proof, not all these highly sensitive documents,

please let me know if i have missed something?

 

158 Duty of agency to disclose filed information

 

(1) A credit reference agency, within the prescribed period after receiving,

 

(a) a request in writing to that effect from any partnership or other unincorporated body of persons not consisting entirely of bodies corporate (the “consumer”) and

 

 

(b) such particulars as the agency may reasonably require to enable them to identify the file, and

 

 

© a fee of £2,

 

 

shall give the consumer a copy of the file relating to it kept by the agency.

 

(2) When giving a copy of the file under subsection (1), the agency shall also give the consumer a statement in the prescribed form of the consumer’s rights under section 159.

 

(3) If the agency does not keep a file relating to the consumer it shall give the consumer notice of that fact, but need not return any money paid.

 

(4) If the agency contravenes any provision of this section it commits an offence.

 

(5) In this Act “file”, in relation to an individual, means all the information about him kept by a credit reference agency, regardless of how the information is stored and “copy of the file”, as respects information not in plain English, means a transcript reduced into plain English.

[jamesbond]

surely if you have not supplied the data requested within seven days you have breeched that act? i cannot see anywhere that you are allowed to make further checks other than reasonable as in the dpa, it states quite clearly that the information you require only to to ascertain the data owners file, i.e address and names and if moved recently a previous address? and i feel that as a person who is well up within the realms of experian and on your own admission their spokesperson you really should be totally conversant with the data protection act and consumer credit laws, as your business is established within this field. at the end of the day i beleive that mostly you carry out a just a useful requirement, but we must maintain that these bodies who use and control our data are there for our purpose as much as your customers and without our data yours would be a difficult business to run..so please respect our rights as it appears under the laws and act with us as consumers instead of trying to blank us with unfounded statements..as was stated earlier we are bound by the same laws as are you, and the internet revolution is unfortunately making the general public aware of rights which we were previously denied access to.this site comprises i beleive of 60,000 plus members and to be honest i think that you will be there first port of call in any actions for their defences,so embrace them as they are your business.

[jamesbond]

i have found the section under the dpa as copied below.

 

(3) A data controller is not obliged to comply with a request under this section unless he is supplied with such information as he may reasonably require in order to satisfy himself as to the identity of the person making the request and to locate the information which that person seeks.

 

surely a credit card order in that name and having been on the electoral roll for 5 years at the adress ordered from is reasonable satisfaction? as i said i received my information from experian with a 2 pounds postal order far quicker than you supplied mine using my credit card? i can understand if i had moved in the last two years of this request, but five years at this address ? this does not sound reasonable to me unfortunately...whilst i appreciate you have a duty to protect my data, i feel the documentation you requested was in my case, not required to be reasonably satisfied as that had already been supplied. on the second point the documentation you ask for is highly sensitive and there are no guarantees on its safe return and could open you up to identy theft big time if that documentation were to get in the wrong hands through loss or whatever means...so perhaps this should be given some thought.

[jamesbond]

thanks for that info james1..if you read above you will see i have posted regarding this...on a good note it is excellent that you have chosen to come on here freely and spend time with the community, i feel this can be said from everyones point of view..please remember we are only here to defend our rights as consumers and ensure that everything is complied with from all bodies who use our data. at the end of the day we have rights and as long as everyone complies with those rights there would be no cause for complaint or redress.

it is our data and we will demand our rights are excercised on how it is applied, so please make room in your business to allow us to excercise those rights and work with us within the laws laid down..it really is that easy.

[jamesbond]

correct worcester am in agreement there...

 

also why are you disclosing data when a contract is terminated, thereby anulling your permission to process that data...can you answer this for us james?

[jamesbond]

as far as i am aware i have never given any permission to disclose data upon termination of an agreement that is not in the public domain or on the order of a court, so by sharing that unlawfully applied data are you not in breech of the data protection act, and in return providing incorrect information that may cause distress or hardship.as stated many times on this site when an agreement terminates so does your right to disclose data terminate with it?

[jamesbond]

thanks for that reply james..not as thorough as we would like, but at least its a start..perhaps straight answers to questions would benefit everyone from hereon...after being fed questionable information from all avenues including the banks and credit cards for an eternity, it appears that if nobody says anything or challenges something it just keeps going on, lawful or unlawful.. i feel the realms of data relay and cras and the boundaries under which they presume to operate is still in its unchallenged infancy as there are far to many doubts arising about what should and shouldnt be done with our data. we are getting into areas where data processing is becoming increasingly intrusive and suggest in the near future that many challenges will be made about these invasive acts, as i imagine will be the case if/when id cards are introduced and the data they will be pertaining to hold. i forsee there will be drastic ammendments to what is being allowed and what is lawfully allowed to be processed, and a few test cases may need to commence to bring about this change in what cras see as accepted common policy. the data revolution has gone into full swing and consumers are far more aware of the rights and wrongs now, perhaps the banks have done us a favour by making the public realise that everything placed before us is not written in stone and should be accepted without question. i for one think this is a wake up call for all of us...

[jamesbond]

no probs andrew...i love reading your posts anyway....007

[jamesbond]

very interesting posts here but please guys dont be too hard on jamesj . we have an open discussion line with a cra and surely this must be beneficial?

i have been looking closely at section 12 of the which i will reproduce from the site as follows.

 

Rights in relation to automated decision-taking.

12. - (1) An individual is entitled at any time, by notice in writing to any data controller, to require the data controller to ensure that no decision taken by or on behalf of the data controller which significantly affects that individual is based solely on the processing by automatic means of personal data in respect of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct.

 

from what i am reading i would presume that this is also applicable to be sent to creditors to stop all automated information from being relayed to cras , which i have no doubt is all automated in the larger organisations? irrespective of if you have given permission through a credit agreement or not. if a data controller relays your credit payment information that has been compiled by a computor to a cra that data controller has made a decision that will affect your creditworthiness...please correct me if i have misread this?

007

[jamesbond]

you are so right neo..i personally believe that the only data cras should be allowed to hold is data from the courts, then, if there is any wrong doing you have a proven lawful track upon which to proceed to get ammendments made...as far as i am aware that is the original reason for the register of judgments, to do the job the cras now do, but unfortunately the cras and banks added their own little perks ,which imo make it so wrongful and causes so much distress for so many people..as jamesj clearly said it promotes responsible lending? where ? responsible lending in my books denotes to an apr that doesnt turn you inside out, and proper assistance should you get into trouble with repayments , not to burden you with penalty charges and illicit dcas..and then defamate you for 6 years and cast you into the bastilles of credit hell with a default notice issued in any way they see fit...and our redress??? very limited until now i believe.

[jamesbond]

excellent reading from every one, i am totally entertained by it!!

my question is surely under the Data Protection Act you have a lawful right to terminate any processing of your data by automated means irrespective of if you have a contract in force with a lender or not as your rights under the Data Protection Act will overide any agreement you have made within a contractual agreement? can someone clarify as to if this is the case and the Data Protection Act rights afforded you do in fact overide a contractual agreement.

[jamesbond]

oh dear jamesj, the logistics to which you imply that other data should be held for 6 years is what?

you seem to be unable to understand that the information in the public domain has been placed there on the recommendation of a judge acting within a court of law.

these matters have had been addressed by people appointed with the required knowledge and situational facts laid before them, and act purely as the law states they should.

this cannot be said in any way by the default notices and payment data that are applied by other bodies throughout the finacial sector. they often do not follow any codes laid down by voluntary agreement, and the information they apply is their point of view, not the reality of a situation as would be actioned if in front of a court.

lenders look at a default notice with the same consideration as a ccj, and accordingly a default notice should be governed by the law as such, to stop all creditors from abusing this position.

the law is the law and anything else which is written outside of that law should not be displayed on any credit files.

[jamesbond]

well said surlely and robertxc,

we are just going round in circles again with these cras, i have no doubt that the creditors and all the cras are going through hell at the minute with all these people messing up their quiet lives,trying to lawfully get their rights carried out. tut tut.

this is just the start believe me. :)

[jamesbond]

jamesj, that was a little bitter!! we really should expect better from you

[jamesbond]

sorry i forgot you work for a cra..

[jamesbond]

as posted from the information commisioners own leaflet.

 

• you have given your consent to the

processing (although consent may be

withdrawn);

can it be any clearer jamesj?

[jamesbond]

my apologies jamesj if you consider my statement unpleasant, it was actually directed at all cras in general, but surely your own moral compass must dictate that these practices are not correct?

and how can you answer to the icos own leaflet which clearly states that any processing permission can be removed?

[jamesbond]

are the lenders not expected to carry out these practices laid down on there own , with out me having to remind them? and also this must surely apply to the cras as well, of which you are an employee and spokes person?

[jamesbond]

"SurlyBonds

 

I don't know. I cannot tell you what a lender (or his lawyer) might think. You'd have to ask them. If you are so convinced you are right, why is it so important that I personally agree with you? "

 

Jamesj, as a spokespeson for experian, does it not follow that if we can get the issue across to you, then maybe this could be given to the attention of the other directors and perhaps we could reach a satisfactory conclusion on the many problems that are facing us as both consumers and data providers of experian?

[jamesbond]

but it also says we can withdraw our permission to use that data, and clearly the lenders or the cras, do not exercise our rights in this issue

[jamesbond]

jamesj ,whilst it is great that you voluntarily post on this site, it seems unfortunate that we dont get any arbitration on our parts whatsoever on raising a complaint with cras in general. it saddens me that when you do look into problems, it is purely a decision between you and the lender, our point of issue has little or no weight carried into the arena. whilst this continues we unfortunately will be unable to have a level playing field upon which the the cras can hold and relay our data in a manner that is both acceptable to your enquirers and us as consumers. a change is long overdue in your arbitration dept and this could only be beneficial in the long run and perhaps could set a precedent that maybe would give your company an edge as the data you relay would be far more accurate and supply the lender with a much clearer picture on a applicants ability to honour any debt.

whist i find it dissapointing you tend to take the view that lenders are honourable businesses, alas it is not the case in all situations, indeed there is a large amount of data relayed by yourselves that to be quite honest is very doubtful as to its accuracy, and if your company implemented an arbitration scheme that did allow defense against the data you hold in a full and proper manner, it may make the lenders be a bit more concise with there distribution so freely of default notices and more accuracy of any othert data supplied to you? 007