Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB ***WON UNCONDITIONALLY WITH CONTRACTUAL INTEREST***

[lucid]

I saw the letters! They were brilliantly worded

 

What kind of proportion of the claim was compound interest? I'm expecting that my claim will be something like 40% charges + 60% compound interest - just curious how that is working out for other people.

Thanks Whiskers.

 

Here's a breakdown for each account as it was on the day we filed the claims (7/9/06):

 

Mindzai's Account (From 9/8/04)

£400 total charges = £73.90 compound interest

£2.79 interest paid on penalties = £1.06 compound interest

 

Lucid's Account (From 2/1/04)

£380 total charges = £120.85 compound interest

£72.03 interest paid on penalties = £19.70 compound interest

 

Joint Account (From 3/11/03)

£1162 total charges = £257.55 compound interest

£138.23 interest paid on penalties = £27.56 compound interest

 

As you can see all of our claims are within the last 2/3 years so the compounded interest is a relatively small amount (although it is a large increase to us when compared to statutory interest). The further back in time your charges go then the higher the proportion of interest your claims will be. But our totals have increased since then which is the beauty of compounded interest.

 

Chose to bring account back inline with the existing agreement as ive not got the energy for Mindzai's fight but Mindzai/Lucid i wish you all the best.

Thank you for your comments golfscape. Unfortunately we are in no position to be able to pay them any of the arrears - even if we wanted to. But out of principle I think we would have stuck to the same route we've taken now. We know full well that they passed our accounts to Collections through pure retaliation as soon as they got our prelims and we are also pretty confident that we will not have to ever pay them this money back - they will be paying themselves back once our dispute is resolved. Obviously I don't want to sound really cocky but I know that we've got a really good case against them and however long it takes I'm sure we will get back our money as others already have.

 

It is very booring when you receive countless letters from them implying that as you haven't bothered to get back in touch with them they have been forced to take further action - when in fact you have sent them countless letters that they have obviously chosen to ignore. But I think we are definitely on the right tracks now and I think they're going to have to start listening and paying attention. The fact that one of their Managers from the Collections Centre sounded so lost on the phone when informed of their various breaches by Mindzai suggests to me that they have definitely done something wrong and are maybe out of their depth to handle such serious issues. But we are eagerly awaiting the reply from Jamie Williams from Customer Recovery. Mindzai was informed that this was the top guy who could sort our issue out - apparently there were only a couple who could! :-?

 

Lucid

[lucid]

Yeah, it looks like they try to make things difficult while keeping up some ridiculous pretence that it isn't retaliatory to your claim.

 

Sadly they all seem as bad as each other so where do you jump ship to even if you have the choice?!

From what I've seen Lloyds seem to be the worst in general - particularly with their bullying tactics, although I'm sure the others aren't too far behind. Once our claims are resolved we will be complaining to as many authorities as we can against them and we will also be completely closing our accounts and will never deal with them again. The majority of the staff we have spoken with on the phone have been very unhelpful and have shown no compassion at all.

 

I remember the moment that made me suggest to Mindzai that we stop using our Lloyds accounts and use his A&L account for everything. We had received a statement saying that we were going to be charged a total of £180 from our joint account - and this is still the majority of our monthly money left after rent and bills etc. Mindzai phoned to plead with them to lift the charges and after being passed around through various depts. he was informed that the next woman had the authority to lift the charges. So after explaining the situation to her, and being very hopeful that she would lift the charges, he was told that she wasn't going to do it. So he pointed out that if the charges were taken it would mean money wouldn't be there for direct debits and we would then incur more charges down the line - and he also pointed out that it would leave us barely any living money for the rest of the month. But she didn't care. In fact her response was along the lines of:

 

"well if you can't afford to cover the charges as well then you shouldn't have the internet and you shouldn't have Sky. . . . . You need to get a higher paid job and your girlfriend needs to find a full time job." :o

 

And Mindzai has just sent off an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for all recordings they have so with any luck we will have this to hand soon and it will be good bit of evidence to show this horrible breach of section 14.1 of the Banking Code: "We will consider cases of financial difficulty sympathetically and positively."

 

When Mindzai tried to point out that if she lifted the charges it would mean that we would have enough money to cover all bills etc. and we wouldn't get charged again, her reply was something like, "yes but this has gone on far too long now." I have no idea how that is of any help but as you can guess the end result was that she didn't lift the charges. When Mindzai came off the phone and told me what she'd said I was so appalled and upset and I couldn't bare the thought of anymore of our money getting taken by them. And it made me think why should we let them take this charge and leave us with practically nothing except more charges next month? So I suggested that we just stopped everything going in and out of the Lloyds accounts and used Mindzai's new account that he'd recently set up. That way Lloyds could only charge us on their own charges - which they never do anyway. So we did that and as I've said elsewhere we have been fine since.

 

So after all of that I think Lloyds are a completely horrible bank and although the staff can't be blamed and labelled in the same way, unfortunately we have been unlucky in having to deal with some not very nice members of their staff and are thoroughly unimpressed with their level of customer service so far. But this is all going to be dealt with once our claims have been resolved.

 

Lucid

[lucid]

We each received a letter from Collections today and each letter sems to have taken over 2 weeks to reach us. :o I'm not quite sure what's going on there - I didn't even think that the Collections Centre was open on Sundays which was the date of Mindzai's letter. Anyway they sent this one to Mindzai regarding his joint account and sole account.

 

Collections Centre

Brighton BN1 4BE

 

Date: 10th September 2006

 

Dear Mr Mindzai,

 

We have written to you previously and it seems that you have chosen to ignore our request for payment or contact.

 

If the arrears amount listed is not received within the next 10 days, we will be forced to issue a Default Notice. This could then lead to us formally demanding the FULL BALANCE outstanding on the following accounts.

 

Cheque Account xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [balance] -1101.92 [Arrears] 301.92

Cheque Account xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [balance] -88.18 [Arrears] 88.18

 

Total payment now due : £390.10

 

Once a Default Notice has been issued your credit rating may be seriously affected, not only within Lloyds TSB Bank plc, but also with other credit granters, such as, other banks, building societies, store card issuers and hire purchase providers.

 

You are urged to give this matter your immediate attention, by paying the outstanding arrears and ensuring future payments are received on time. If you cannot pay the arrears you should contact us on the above telephone number as a matter of urgency.

 

We would once again remind you that the consequences of not giving this mater your most urgent attention could be serious which may include additional charges, a negative affect on your credit rating and the possibility of legal action.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Manager, Collections Centre

What confuses me is they sent this to Mindzai on the 10th, apparently, and it's only just turned up today (the 27th). In this letter they are referring to his sole account and the joint account and threaten to issue a Default Notice in 10 days - which would be the 20th. However Mindzai's Default Notice for the joint account was dated 16th September - which is obviously 6 days after the date of this letter. Anyway my letter was regarding the joint account but no threats of default at all.

 

Collections Centre

Brighton BN1 4BE

 

Date: 11th September 2006

 

Dear Miss Lucid,

 

Despite our two previous letters the following account is sill in arrears and no arrangement has been made. It would appear that this account is currently a low priority to you.

 

Cheque Account xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Arrears] 301.92

 

Total payment now due : £301.92

 

If payment has not been made, you must ensure it is made immediately AND that you contact us on the above telephone number to discuss the future conduct of your account.

 

We are open for telephone contact between 8am and 9pm Monday to Friday and 8am to 5pm on Saturday. Calls may be recorded and/or monitored in order to ensure security for our customers and staff to help maintain service quality.

 

Please be assured that the consequences of not giving this matter the most urgent attention could be serious which may include additional charges, a negative affect on credit rating and the possibility of legal action.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Manager, Collections Centre

My favourite was the second sentence: "It would appear that this account is currently a low priority to you." No amount of letter writing seems to get through to them - I don't know how many times you have to explain the situation to them but they refuse to accept it. I think all of these letters we've been receiving really do point towards the automated letters issue because they completely lack any cosistency. I find it really strange that one holder of the joint account has been issued a Default (or supposedly has) and the other (me) has only recently received an Enforcement Notice for the same account.

 

But nevermind. I've given up the idea of writing to them countless times to make them aware of the situation. They are obviously completely ignoring any attempts of contact when they're not getting the outcome they're hoping for so I'll let them get on with it.

 

Just to finish though Mindzai got this letter yesterday acknowledging his major complaint to Jamie Williams - one of the top guys in Customer Service.

 

Customer Service Recovery Centre

125 Colmore Road

Birmingham

B3 3SF

 

Date: 25th September 2006

 

Dear Mr Mindzai,

 

I am writing to acknowledge your complaint against Lloyds TSB, and I am sorry that you have had to contact us about this.

 

I have registered your comments and forwarded a copy of your letter to the addressee, asking them to respond to the points you have raised. I am confident you should hear from them shortly.

 

Yours sincerely

 

David Rook

Customer Care Advisor

Hopefully Mindzai will get a response soon and it will be interesting to see what it is. We've got just over two weeks to wait until the solicitors' deadline (8th Oct) - I'm sure they'll be entering a defence at the very last minute. And after that we're prepared for some mmajor waiting as it seems everybody is being put on hold at the moment but we're not complaining too much as our interest is gradually increasing.

 

Lucid

[GaryH]

Unbelievable! How can they say you have'nt tryed to contact them? They're obviously just taking the p**s now.

[tim2718281]

I think Mindzai and Lucid should write the dates received on the letters, and if possible keep the envelopes with postmarks.

 

If the case ever gets to court, the judge will ask for the bank's explanation for the strange dates.

 

Tim

[lucid]

I know - it's really frustrating but as I said they obviously don't count anything other than arranging to pay them the money as contact. Fortunately I have only spoken to them on the phone once (I'm far too weak ) but Mindzai has spoken to the Collections Centre a few times now and everytime they have played innocent to the whole situation. They have always been surprised to discover that there has been an ongoing dispute with them over the charges and are even more shocked to discover that there is now a court claim against them. At first we assumed that it was very bad communication between departments but now there is no excuse - and the majority of the last few letters sent to Collections were CCd to Customer Recovery, so there's absolutely no excuse for none of the relevant departments to know what's going on.

 

But as I said, I've given up sending them letters now. If they're not going to listen to the situation then I don't see the point in spending £1 a time on sending the letters to them. I'm hoping Mindzai's letter to Jamie Williams is going to get some answers because he did point out some serious issues, but we shall have to see.

 

As long as they don't actually carry out any of their threats then it's not so much of a problem if they want to carry on sending letters to us. But we'll see - I don't want to speak too soon.

 

Lucid

[lucid]

I think Mindzai and Lucid should write the dates received on the letters, and if possible keep the envelopes with postmarks.

 

If the case ever gets to court, the judge will ask for the bank's explanation for the strange dates.

 

Tim

Unfortauntely Lloyds use TNT mail which is a business service (I think) and the postage marks don't have anything like the date on them. All it has is a TNT mail logo, then S Postage Paid. Otherwise it would have been good to keep hold of them as proof. But I'm keeping a timeline of all dates we receive letters (with the letter date as well), also included are all letters we've sent with their tracking numbers. I haven't actually written the dates received on the letters so I'll do that in case we need to submit any of these letters.

 

Lucid

[lucid]

Hi everyone,

 

Mindzai received yet another phonecall from the Collections Centre on Friday 29th. They were wanting to inform him that the account is in arrears and wanted him to repay the money.:o We had no idea! So once again he had to try and explain the situation to them. He tried asking if a default notice had been placed on his account and the woman he was speaking to said that she thought that default notices are issued automatically to the Credit Reference Agencies. But she said she couldn't confirm if this had happened or not. Under the Data Protection Act they can't automatically process data that will be harmful to you so if this default has been passed on automatically to the Credit Reference Agencies not only have they breached the Banking Code but they will have also broken the law by breaching the Data Protection Act. She also said that she will put a note on the file to prevent anybody else from phoning Mindzai for a week but she confirmed that two further automated letters have been sent out to Mindzai regarding this issue. Mindzai then asked if there was anybody who could confirm whether the default had been placed on the file already but apparently the illusive supervisors/managers weren't around to talk. The woman did say somebody would get back to him later that day but of course they didn't.

 

Today he has received a letter from the Brighton Customer Recovery - I assume Collections forwarded his letters of complaint to them. It seems Mindzai's approach of ending the letters in the following way has forced them [Collections] to actually respond to his letter:

 

I am hopeful, although not in the slightest bit confident, that you understand how serious I am regarding this and will act accordingly. To make it as clear as possible, I will set out exactly what I require of you in response to this in simple terms:

• I require a written confirmation that you have received this complaint, stating your intention to act upon it, within 5 working days as outlined in the Banking Code s15.3.

• I then require you to, within the next 4 weeks, write to me outlining the course of action you will take to resolve this issue as set out in the Banking Code s15.4.

• In addition to the prompt and professional handling of this complaint, I also require you to immediately desist in taking action to recover this debt until such time a Court decides the dispute is resolved, or a settlement is reached between us.

• Your response to this letter will indicate an acceptance of the fact that passing any details of this debt while it is in dispute to any Credit Reference Agency will be a breach of the Banking Code s13.6.

I would like to make very clear that I am very rapidly losing patience with you on this matter.

So this is the response he has had. It's only an acknowledgement but at least they can't say he hasn't contacted them now.

 

Customer Service Recovery Centre - Brighton

Lloyds TSB Bank plc

Victory House

Trafalgar Place

Brighton

BN1 4FY

 

Date: 27th September 2006

 

Dear Mr Mindzai,

 

Complaint Reference : xxxx

 

I am sorry that you have had cause to complain. Thank you for bringing your concerns to my attention.

 

I have arranged for a member of my Customer Service Recovery team to carry out an immediate investigation, so that you will receive a full response from us. Because of the issues you have raised, it may take a little time to gather all of the information together, but we will respond to you within 28 days.

 

In the meantime I have enclosed a copy of the Bank’s booklet “How to Voice Your Concerns” which gives you more details about resolving complaints with us.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Administrator

Customer Service Recovery Centre

Brighton

So they reckon it's going to take 28 days to fully investigate the matter. Also Mindzai has seen no sign of the letter that Gavin (a Manager from Collections) promised he would send which would confirm that a default hadn't been passed on to the Credit Agencies yet.

 

Oh well. Our claim's 28 day deadline is approaching (Sunday 8th) although I think I've read that if it falls on a Sunday it actually becomes a Monday deadline. I guess we'll be receiving a defence through in the post very soon from SC&M.

 

Lucid

[reload]

That acknowledgement of complaint letter doesn't look decidedly familiar to anyone else, does it?

[lucid]

Yes I think the only difference is they've changed 14 days to 28 days.

 

Nevermind. We're hoping that the reply will be much more interesting but it looks as though we've got a while to wait. But at least they can no longer claim that he hasn't been contacting them now.

 

Lucid

[reload]

lol - given how little the left hand talks to the right hand at Lloyds I wouldn't be surprised if they call you tomorrow

[lucid]

Yes I'm sure they will. Although apparently they won't start phoning again until Friday. Then I'm sure it will be the same "are you aware that your account is in arrears?" rubbish that they always spurt. You can't blame the call centre staff because they're just doing their job (although some of them don't see to be too friendly), but it's really annoying that they don't have a better system in place so that when they do phone they are up to speed with what's going on.

 

Lucid

[tim2718281]

Lloyds: "Are you aware your account is in debit?"

 

Lucid: "Yes; are you calling me to arrange payment?"

 

Lloyds: "That would be good. Will it be payment in full, or in installments?"

 

Lucid: "Payment in full would be better."

 

Lloyds: "Good. When will the payment be made?"

 

Lucid: "I'd prefer tomorrow".

 

Lloyds. "Good. How will the payment be made?"

 

Lucid: "I think cash would be better."

 

Lloyds: "At a bank branch?"

 

Lucid: "Yes, at my local bank branch. Will I need to bring identification to collect the cash?"

 

Lloyds: "What?"

 

Lucid: "To collect the cash you've just agreed to pay me in full to eliminate Lloyds' debt."

 

Lloyds: "I don't understand"

 

Lucid: "You owe me some money. I assume you've called to make arrangement to pay it ..."

 

Lloyds: "We owe you money?"

 

Lucid "Got it in one ... now, about my collecting it ...

 

Lloyds: "Errr ... I'll need to get back to you on that ..."

 

Tim

 

Tim

[midge61]

hi

I've got to say that is a real gem and i've only just managed to stop laughing!

Best of luck to you

midge 61

[freebird]

as you can see, I can't sleep to night,, mind on over time.......

 

that wa so funny, cheered me up no end , ta xx

[lucid]

Yes thanks for that tim2718281. That post has come in very useful - read on to find out why.

 

Mindzai was phoned by the illusive supervisor yesterday (Monday 2nd) and got exactly the same rubbish as usual. When he began quoting Data Protection Act etc. the response he got was: "There's no point quoting legal information at me because I don't know anything about it." He did get told that the letters are automatically sent out because they legally have to and, with reference to the Default Notice, it doesn't mean that a Default has been passed on to the Credit Reference Agencies. However she did say that they have passed on data since the account has been in dispute but apparently it's not harmful because it's white data. I assume she was referring to status codes which they've passed on because the account is in arrears, in which case I think that is harmful although not as severe as a default. I think the end result of the conversation was that the default notice is being put on hold at the moment, so I suppose that's a little progress.

 

Then Mindzai received the two automated letters today which are from SC&M regarding the arrears on the joint account and his sole account. Here is one of them:

 

SECHIARI, CLARK & MITCHELL – SOLICITORS

Department SO, PO Box 499, Lower Ground Floor, 1-5 Queens Road Quadrant, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 3XJ. Telephone: 01273 205381

 

Date: 28th September 2006

 

Dear Sir,

 

We are instructed by Lloyds TSB Bank plc who advise us that despite several reminders your account remains out of order. This letter, therefore, makes formal demand on you to repay the balance as quoted above plus interest which is accruing on a daily basis. The due amount is based on the account balance today, receipt of any further debits or credits or a variation in interest rate will result in amendment of the amount payable.

 

If payment is not received by our Client within 7 days from receipt of this letter, Court proceedings may be issued against you without further reference. Once proceedings have been issued, you may be liable for legal costs incurred. In order to avoid this action you should make payment into a Lloyds TSB branch. Alternatively you can send a cheque made payable to our Client to the above address. Please write your account number on the reverse of the cheque.

 

Furthermore, you are reminded that if we do no receive a satisfactory response from you, it is the policy of Lloyds TSB Bank plc to lodge information relating to your failure to pay with the following agencies: Experian Ltd, Equifax Europe (UK) Ltd and Callcredit plc.

 

You should also be aware that it is common practice within the finance industry for this information to be used when assessing your ability to manage your own finances and it is our understanding that this may also impact in the case of family members or associates where they have relevant financial association with you. Furthermore, if the debt is settled within the prescribed period this fact will also be recorded, but will not lead to the origina default being removed.

 

If you are unable to pay the full balance, our Client my be prepared to accept a reduced sum, together with realistic proposals for regular monthly payments. You must telephone our Client on 0870 – 2424763 immediately if you wish to discuss such an arrangement.

 

REMEMBER, THIS IS A FORMAL DEMAND PRIOR TO THE COMMENCEMENT OF LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AND YOU ARE STRONGLY URGED TO MAKE IMMEDIATE PAYMENT TO AVOID THE ABOVE ACTION.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Sechiari Clark & Mitchell

 

This firm is regulated by The Law Society

So using tim2718281's turn the tables on the bank approach above Mindzai sent SC&M the following letter for each account today:

 

SECHIARI, CLARK & MITCHELL – SOLICITORS

Department SO

PO Box 499

Lower Ground Floor

1-5 Queens Road Quadrant

Brighton

East Sussex

BN1 3XJ

 

3rd October, 2006

 

CC: Customer Service Recovery Centre, Brighton

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 28th September 2006 requesting repayment of a supposed debt to your client.

 

As you are aware, the amount in question and more is currently the subject of a County Court Claim, Number xxxxxxxx, for which you filed an Acknowledgement of Service on 14th September 2006. Despite several reminders this debt still remains unpaid. This letter, therefore, makes a further formal demand for full repayment of your Client’s debt, plus interest which is accruing on a daily basis. The total due amount as of the date of this letter, based on the sum of monies levied by your Client, plus contractual interest at a rate of 29.85%, plus costs is £1757.14.

 

If payment is not received upon receipt of this letter, Court proceedings against your Client will continue. Your Client may be liable for any court costs associated with this claim. In order to avoid this action your Client can send a cheque for the total amount plus interest made payable to me at the above address.

 

Furthermore, I remind you that should your Client carry out their threat of lodging information of my failing to pay this disputed debt with the credit reference agencies, they will be in breach of the Banking Code s13.6 and the Data Protection Act s10, a notice pertaining to which they received on 5th September 2006. As they are aware of this fact, and as they have informed me that they do not intend to carry out such actions in light of this fact, I believe that threatening to carry out this action regardless amounts to a breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 s40(a), not to mention the implications of attempting to intimidate me into paying a supposed debt which lawfully does not exist. I will of course be forwarding your correspondence to the Law Society accordingly.

 

I am not prepared to accept a reduced sum, however I will accept full payment of your Client’s debt as settlement of this issue, and upon receipt of the money I will cease my legal action against your Client.

 

I look forward to your prompt reply.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Mr Mindzai

So let's see how they like that response!

 

In other news Mindzai also received a big envelope through from the Copy Statement Unit, Birmingham today consisting of all of the statements for the joint account and his sole account. I was actually impressed by how quickly they sent all of this through as he only sent the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) on 21st September. However they didn't send any of the telephone recordings, T&Cs or contracts that he requested and they didn't give any indication that they were going to send these, so he has sent them an LBA for non-compliance today. They now have 28 more days to send everything through. He also reminded them that they have 2 days left to supply all of the information requested in the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for his old credit card. He was sent a pathetic 6 almost illegible photocopies of statements that were completely missing any details of transactions. I have no idea how they thought that would be sufficient.

 

Lucid

[pinkychops]

I can't wait to read the next update, it has been so interesting following your thread. Myself, i would probably have given up ages ago. I admire you both for your determination to see it through. Best wishes and Good Luck.

[Mindzai]

Hi pinkychops,

 

All quiet on the Lloyds front here at the moment, but as the last date for Lloyds' defence is Sunday I'm expecting them to enter a defence on Monday (anything else wouldn't be quite such a waste of the court's time, and we all know how much Lloyds love to do that). That's assuming they dont sneak it in today! We'll be applying for default judgement on Monday anyway if they haven't entered it by then.

[lucid]

Hi everyone,

 

We've received a defence and allocation questionnaire through for our joint account this morning (deadline was yesterday). It was dated 5th October so I expect we'll receive one through for each of our sole accounts over the next day or two. The defence once again is completely standard but as a reference for anybody who's yet to see one:

 

DEFENCE

 

1. The Defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc (the Bank) is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN. It is admitted that the Claimants have been customers of the Bank at all material times.

 

2. By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the Bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank’s charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing;

 

-cheques

-bank statements

-the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order

-debit cards

-ATMs (cash machines)

 

3. By maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed with the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the Bank’s own funds. If the Bank makes a payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet that makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that “there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when you account is in credit.

 

When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

 

If you want to use a service that we haven’t listed, we’ll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead.”

 

4. There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate if the Bank’s loss.

 

5. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of the month, and which will appear as debits on the following month’s statement. Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, the payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

 

6. The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

 

7. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charge terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

 

8. In the premises:

 

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

 

8.2 the Bank is entitles by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

 

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

 

9. The Claimant’s claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank.

 

Statement of Truth

 

The Defendant believes that the facts stated in the Defence are true. I am duly authorised by the Defendant to sign this statement.

 

Full name: Alan Ingledew – Recoveries Team Leader for the Defendant, namely Lloyds TSB Bank plc.

 

Served 5th day of October 2006 by Sechiari Clark & Mitchell of Department SO, PO Box 499, Upper Ground Floor, 1-5 Queens Road Quadrant, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 3XJ: Telephone 01273 205381.

 

Solicitors for the Defendant.

The deadline for the AQ is 23rd October but obviously we're going to get it in as soon as possible. So we're getting slightly closer although I'm still expecting a very long wait yet.

 

On the last day of the 40 day deadline for his credit card S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) Mindzai received the exact same 6 photocopies they had previously sent with a slip saying "these are the only statements available from Card Services for this card." But we think something interesting is going on here because all of these statements have got one of Mindzai's old addresses on and the date of the first statement is December 2000. From August 2000 Mindzai had moved to a different address and had changed addresses with the bank as soon as he moved. He also had a credit card bill every month until August 2002 which was when he finally repaid the credit card. So I don't know what they're up to but I'm sure they must still have the information on this card as it was only between 1999 and 2002 that he had it.

 

Finally Mindzai had his response from Jamie O'Neill (he had addressed the major complaint letter to Jamie Williams but we're assuming he was given the wrong name). Unfortunately it's a very pathetic excuse for a letter:

 

Customer Service Recovery Centre

125 Colmore Road

Birmingham

B3 3SF

 

Date: 3rd October 2006

 

Dear Mr Mindzai,

 

Thank you for your letter dated 20 September 2006. I have noted your comments but unfortunately I cannot add any further information to our previous letter or agree to your request. Since the bank’s final response has been issued, I must advise you that we will not be entering into any further correspondence regarding the points you have raised.

 

I can confirm that statements have been forwarded to you from our Copy Statement Unit and our Card Services department will be responding to you directly under separate cover, regarding your credit card.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Jamie O’Neill

Assistant Manager

If you remember the very long letter of complaint Mindzai sent to this guy it brought up some very serious issues to do with breaches and law breaking. To me, this guy just seems to have completely ignored all of the issues and hasn't treated it as a complaint at all. So I'm sensing another letter will be sent soon and not just to the banks but to many relevant organisations.

 

Lucid

[crashbandicoot]

Smarmy gits, I was really looking forward to you getting judgement by default but they've sneaked it in afterall. Onwards to the next stage then!

[lucid]

Thanks crash. We were expecting that to happen. I've read elsewhere that the banks can submit defences late and get away with it for some reason, so we knew it would come at some point. The longer they draw it out the more interest we're earning and we sure won't be settling for less if they offer.

 

Lucid

[LEECHTHEBREACH]

I have been perusing this site for a month or so now,look and learn is my order of the day.I thought that Whizkidd v Abbey was enthralling,but this thread takes the biscuit.

Absolutly full marks for being so resolute,it is very encouraging to me.

Would you be so kind Mindzai and Lucid to allow me to cut and paste some of your mind blowing letters for probable use,as i am at the LBA stage with Abbey and

Barclays,(16/10/06 they have got before proceedings) and i think it will be a bumpy ride.I have started my own thread and will report the ongoing saga,

best wishes and good luck.

Revenge is a kind of wild justice,which the more man,s nature runs to,the more ought Law to weed it out.

[lucid]

LeechTheBreach - feel free to use what you need. We post all out letters in the hope they will be of use to someone

 

Mindzai

[lucid]

Well with it being 3 days after the deadline for our sole account claims we decided to go along to the court to file for default judgement for each account. We took along the completed Allocation Questionnaire for our joint account and gave that in as well. Now we'll just have to wait and see if Lloyds still sneak in a defence.

 

Mindzai also posted a further letter of complaint to Jamie O'Neill today and as usual here it is:

 

Customer Service Recovery Centre

125 Colmore Row

Birmingham

B3 3SF

 

11th October, 2006

 

Dear Mr O'Neill

 

Firstly, allow me to express my deepest disgust at the way you have failed to handle my complaints. In my letter dated 20th September, I pointed out some extremely serious issues with the way I have been treated by you, including breaches of the banking code and of the law as well as some shocking examples of customer service.

 

The fact that you have deemed it reasonable to respond to these issues with a standard template letter stating that you will not be doing anything at all about them is a testament to your seemingly immeasurable arrogance and superciliousness. As I have had the misfortune of attempting to deal with your staff previously this comes as no great surprise to me, but let me assure you that despite my lack of surprise, my contempt for your attitude towards your customers and the law is absolute. Rest assured your confidence in my willing acceptance of this deplorable treatment could not be more displaced.

 

Judging from your selection of an entirely irrelevant standard letter template from your library, I can only assume you have not read my letter. Allow me to repeat my issues, an action which I can assure you is accompanied by a due sense of exhaustion and anger on my part. I will break this down for you in simple, bullet pointed terms in the vain hope that you will finally comprehend the seriousness of this situation.

 

I neither have the patience nor the inclination to continue wasting my time wring to you in the hope that you will take the trouble to perform your duties and deal with these issues. This is the final opportunity therefore with which I will present you to conduct yourself in a proper manner and investigate these issues before I take legal action against you for the concerns I have raised.

• The amount you contend that I owe is currently in dispute. You were first informed of this on 9th August and have since been reminded of this in four separate letters, including a letter before action, and at least three separate phone calls. On 10th September a claim was filed against you at Chichester County Court for which your solicitors filed an Acknowledgement of Service on 14th September. The Banking Code s13.6 quite clearly states:

We may give information to credit reference agencies about the personal debts you owe us if:

· you have fallen behind with your payments;

· the amount owed is not in dispute; and

· you have not made proposals we are satisfied with for repaying your debt, following our formal demand.

 

You are therefore in breach of the banking code s13.6. I attach copy of a letter sent by you to an associate of mine apologising for issuing a Default Notice against a disputed debt. I have passed this letter along with all correspondence between us on this matter to the bodies outlined below. I require you to inform me what you intend to do about this breach.

• The Court Case which is currently underway against you will prove that the charges which constitute this debt are unlawful. In this case, you will have also breached s10 of the Data Protection Act 1998, which states:

An individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground that, for specified reasons-

· the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

· that damage or distress is or would be unwarranted.

 

You will note that I have sent you, via recorded delivery, a notice under s10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 dated 4th September 2006. I require you to inform me what you intend to about this breach of the law.

• I was told in a conversation with ‘Gavin’, a manager at your Collections Centre that the Banking Code “legally requires [you] to pass certain data to the reference agencies”. As you should be well aware, this is utter nonsense. The reference agencies are not a legal body, and there is no law, statute or precedent which could possibly prompt you to maintain that you have a legal requirement to process my data.

Should you contend this point, I require you to quote, in full, the law which requires the processing of my data by you. Aside from this fact, you should also be well aware that the Banking Code contains no such legal requirement, or anything remotely similar. It should come as no surprise that when asked, ‘Gavin’ could not point me to the section from which he was quoting as no such section exists.

 

This is a clear breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 s(a) and s(d), which clearly states that;

 

The Administration of Justice Act 1970.

 

Section 40 of the act provides that a person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under contract, he or she:

(a) harasses the other with demands for payment which by their frequency, or the manner or occasion of their making, or any accompanying threat or publicity are calculated to subject him or his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;

(b) falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;

© falsely represent themselves to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment;

(d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not.

 

Again details of this breach including your dismissal of it without any kind of acknowledgement or investigation has been passed to the bodies outline below. I require you to inform me what you intend to about this breach of the law.

• I have been informed by two senior staff in your Collections Department, including ‘Gavin’, that no default has been passed to the reference agencies. I have also been told by members of staff at the same department that a default has indeed been registered, and that this process is automatic. I have also been told that you have passed data to the reference agencies, but have not passed a default.

Aside from the fact that these situations represent breaches of both the Banking Code and the Data protection Act as outlined above, the fact that you have thus far been unable to confirm the situation is extremely worrying. As you know, I am legally entitled to this information, and I do not appreciate being messed about on an issue as serious as this. If your response to this letter does not include written confirmation of whether you have passed data to a reference agency, as well as details of exactly what data you have passed, I will not hesitate to take legal action to force you to comply. You may be liable for the costs incurred in bringing this case.

 

As you have failed to respond to these issues in any way, least of all positively, I should inform you that I have passed all correspondence relating to them to the FSA, the OFT, Trading Standards, the Banking Code Standards Board and the Financial Ombudsman, as stated in my previous correspondence. I have also drafted a press release which will be sent to local and national media should you not respond positively to this complaint.

 

Finally I am unsure as to the relevance of your reference to my request for copies of my statements. I can only assume you saw the words Subject Access Request when you briefly skimmed my letter and decided you would add a sentence to your template response in the hope that I would be fooled into thinking you had actually done something about my complaint. The Subject Access Request referred to in my complaint is for copies of the recordings of conversations in which your staff have broken the law, the banking code or both, or have otherwise deviated from the truth.

 

Despite the irrelevance of your statement, as this seems to be one area in which you seem willing to pen a grudging acknowledgement, I would point out to you that you have not in fact fulfilled my Subject Access Request for credit card statements, the 40 day legal limit for which has now expired, and you have not as yet completely fulfilled my second Subject Access Request insofar as you have failed to provide me with any recordings, the original contract I signed on that fateful day when I began banking with you, and a copy of the terms and conditions to which I was bound at the time of opening my account. I will of course be lodging a complaint with the Information Commissioner as well as undertaking any the necessary legal action to force you to comply with the Data Protection Act should I not be in receipt of the documents in the next 14 days.

 

In summary, I require you to:

• Furnish me with information concerning how you have processed my data relating to this disputed default, or confirmation that no such processing has taken place. If you do not do this within 14 days I will begin legal action against you without further notice.

• Inform me of your intended action to deal with the breaches of the law and the banking code by your staff in dealing with this event.

• Inform me of how you intend to address the flaws in your customer service as outline in this letter, and in more detail in my previous letter.

• Reply to this letter within 5 days stating your intention to act upon these issues as per the banking code s15.3

• Reply to this letter WITHOUT using another standard letter or template. The very least you could do considering the way I have been treated by your company is to take the time to respond to these serious issues properly.

Let me make this point absolutely clear: if I do not receive a satisfactory response to this situation, including written confirmation of whether any data concerning this disputed debt has been passed to the reference agencies (information to which I am legally entitled yet you seem suspiciously reluctant to provide), I will take further legal action against you.

Yours sincerely,

 

Mr Mindzai

And he also posted the following letter regarding his credit card S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) today:

 

Penny Berryman

Senior Manager

Data Protection Dept.

Lloyds TSB Bank PLC

The Pentagon

48 Chiswell Street

London

EC1Y 4XX

 

11th October, 2006

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Section 7 – Data Protection Act 1998

 

Dear Madam,

 

I am writing in response to the data you have provided following my Subject Access Request dated 26th August 2006 regarding the credit card account held with you opened in September 1999 and closed in or around August 2002.

 

I do not believe that the information with which you have provided me is accurate or true.

 

Firstly, each of the statements you have sent state that my account balance to be £0. Aside from the first six months after opening the Account, my balance was never £0 or anywhere close to this figure. In fact, I contacted you on numerous occasions at the time because I consistently had problems meeting the minimum monthly payment of approximately £30. My balance was always around or over the limit of £750. When I finally paid off the amount in one lump sum in or around July 2002, the balance stood at around £850. I closed the account at the same time as repaying the debt. The fact that the statements you have sent me state the account balance as £0 throughout therefore is entirely incorrect, and I am extremely concerned about the fact that you have sent false data.

 

Secondly, my address as listed on each of the statements is XX XXXXXXXXXX Road, an address I moved from in August 2000 – before the date of the earliest statement you sent. However, I informed you of my new address and continued to receive statements there. I also continued to receive my current account statements at this new address, of which I have copies. I am puzzled therefore as to why the photocopies of the statements you purportedly sent, spanning a period up to November 2003, do not have this address listed. I can only conclude from this that these copies are not in fact genuine copies of my statements, which I did receive at my new address. I find it hard to believe you would continue sending statements to the wrong address, subsequently receiving no payment as a result, yet still list my balance at £0.

 

Finally I am concerned by the fact that you supposedly have a copy of a statement from November 2003 when my account was closed over a year earlier.

 

As I am sure you will be aware, these are serious issues relating to your duties to follow the Data Protection Act 1998. Should you not reply to this letter with a complete and genuine record of my account history, as well as a satisfactory explanation for these errors, I will have no alternative but to lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner, as well as seek legal advice on this matter.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Mr Mindzai

 

So we shall see if he gets any kind of response to those two.

 

Lucid

[skbuncks]

Love the letters. Beauifully crafted. Lets hope someone actually takes the time to read them

 

Good luck