first offence what to do

[Pen]

Hi I received a speeding ticket caught by camera.

 

this may sound corny but it happens to be true. I am a disabled driver with a motability car and i have 2 other drivers my son and husband on my insurance. The speeding fine was for a road 2 blocks from me on the way to where my other son lives. I honestly don't know who was driving me to my sons on the day i got the ticket or if i was driving myself.

 

I wrote on the form i got from the police that i was the registered keeper but it could have been any one of us driving that day which really is the truth, none of us have ever been charged with speeding before. I have asked my son and husband if they were driving and they too can't remember. Now i am being taken to court what should i do.

 

should i just own up and say it was me even if i am in doubt? I don't want to pay a £1000 fine so would it be better to just admit to it? what would happen if i plead guilty at this late stage.

 

any advice please

 

pen x

[scousegeezer]

Pen,

OK, we need some dates first from you. What date was the offence, what was the date on the NIP - the date it was printed - top righhand corner. What sate did you receive the NIP, have you gat that recorded. NOW have ypou had a summons stating a date for your appearance or just a letter advising you that they will be applying for a summons.

 

Cheers - Scouszegeezer

[asmodeus]

Hi Pen - This is a general observation and i understand your situation as I have access to several cars and after a week can have trouble remembering which car I took to the shops (an age thing in my case )

 

You will need to be very careful as a recent case where a husband and wife tried to use the 'Hamilton Defense' (did not know who was driving) ended up with BOTH being fined and having points on both their licenses

 

The Judge said that people should know when and what car they were driving which is why the NIP has to be served within the 14 days to help iliminate convenient memory loss

 

This may set a precedent for future cases in other courts where this form of defense is used

 

 

Post all the details you can with personal info obscured as there is always the possibility of a mistake.

 

If all is in order then it would seem best to try and establish the driver of the vehicle at the time in question.

[lamma]

No pecedent, its not binding.

[mightymouse_69]

No pecedent, its not binding.

 

But its persuasive precedent...

 

If i were you, i would try and think long and hard on who was driving.

 

Think of the days events - so, you woke up... who was the first person to use the car? What time? Where did they go, what route did they take? who used it next? what time etc etc

 

All those sorts of questions are the sort you will be asked at court... amongst others.

[lamma]

if its persuasive its not a precedent. I would argue that its not even persuasive. for sure the OP needs to apply reasonable diligence.

[mightymouse_69]

Persuasive precedent is not binding no, but it deffinatly could be taken into consideration by the court (if they know about it...)

[lamma]

if its only persuasive it cannot be a precedent !

[mightymouse_69]

I think thats just the name given to the doctrine...

 

So you have your binding precedent which comes from the judgements of the higher courts etc.

 

And then you have persuasive precedent which comes from lower courts, dessenting judgements, foreign courts, legal journals etc.

 

The word precendent merely means "come before" (in very basic terms) it does not on its own mean that the decision is binding or otherwise.

[lamma]

precedent "The decision of a case which established principles of law that act as an authority for future cases of a similar nature" a persuasive case by definition cannot be a precedent. A precedent can only be ignored if it would result in injustice etc. and even then only in the higher courtsm th elower courts have much less flexibility.

[mightymouse_69]

"...Precedent that is not mandatory but which is useful or relevant is known as persuasive precedent (or persuasive authority or advisory precedent). Persuasive precedent includes cases decided by lower courts, by peer or higher courts from other geographic jurisdictions..."

 

As i said in my earlier post - Precedent is can come in two types - Binding or Persuasive.

 

Binding = Binds the courts

Persuasive = As it says - it can persuade another court.

[lamma]

which is why I said its not binding... we seem to have looped the loop on this, can we get nback to the thread.

[mightymouse_69]

Haha, I also said it was not binding!

 

Agreed though, back to the matter in hand....

 

I believe that the OP should really try to find out who was driving!

[Pen]

wow i didn't expect anyone to reply thank you I will hunt out the first letter i got from them and get back to you. thanks guys

 

ok found the info but it appears to be a bit jumbled up.

 

the offence was committed on the 5th oct at 14, 27hrs driving 36 miles in a 30 mile zone.

 

on the 9/10/09 I received first PIN I have signed part 2 saying i don't know who was driving and i dated it 13/10/09 ( i posted mine by recorded delivery)

 

30th/10/09 letter from the police thanking me for my correspondence and enclosing photographic evidence. The enclosed another PIN for me to complete this was also dated 9/10/09. I did not read all the letter i assumed they just wanted me to fill in another PIN so yet again I filled the PIN but on the back of this I signed my name as the driver which was a mistake but for some reason I could not read the small print. I also enclosed a letter explaining why i could not name the driver and requested that the send me a photo of the front of my car to assist me to identify them. On the road in question there are 2 cameras about 40 feet apart on each side of the road. However I did not date this letter but the police have rubber stamped it as the 4th feb 2010. I did date the PIN which was sent with the letter as the 13/10/09 obviously i got the date wrong as i sent it the next day 31/10/09. I always get letters and numbers the wrong way round. however the police have rubberstamped this the 14/02/2010.

 

On the 9/11/09 I received a reminder again it stated notice of prosecution and overleaf was all the same boxes tofill in so I just ignored it because i had sent it to them less then 2 weeks before.

 

Now i have a requisition to attend court in Northwich which is hundreds of miles away.

 

Having reread their letter not I have noticed that not only were they thanking me for my correspondence and asking me to complete another PIN the letter went on to ask for all the names of the drivers!!!!!!!! this i did not do.

 

Now what i am being charged with is failing to give information relating to a driver of a vehicle contrary to section 172(3) and schedule 2 of the road traffic act.

 

This is a right mess.

 

I thought they were just sending me a lot of PINs

 

on The 9/11/09 i received another PIN which was a reminder. I ignored this as i knew i had already completed one and had proof of posting.

 

To be honest I think they have confuesed me with sending me so many PINs to fill in after filling 2 in I gave up providing them with the same information. any help on what to do know.

 

Thanks guys

 

Pen x

Edited March 5, 2010 by Pen

[Pen]

bumb

[Pen]

please someone. any adivce on what i can do with this

 

Pen

[Pen]

Hi Guy's we desperitly need some advice but it's a bit complicated.

 

in around 2008 My daughter who lives in London sold her car to my son who lives in yorkshire she also sent off the change of keeper details. since then she has moved house a few times and so has he.

 

Today she received a letter from a bailif company demanding £1000 plus. for 2 parking fines, i gather they would be from when my son had the car. My son knew about 1 of them because he went to the council offices and filled in the forms to appeal against it but heard nothing more from then. now he to has moved house a few times. both were students hence the house moves

 

what do we do as none of them can afford such a large fine. who does my daughter have to contact to say the car was not her's and what can my son do

can someone please advise us were in a right panic????

Edited May 19, 2010 by Pen

[crem]

As this is at the bailiff stage now, it may be best posting a copy of this thread in the bailiff section of CAG where it is more likely to be seen by tomtubby. She is the bailiff expert in CAG.

[lamma]

and search here for tomtubby's posts, she has posted about this same issue for other victims in this forum.

[Pen]

Thanks Guy's I will post it there too.

although I am still unsure if I need this site as well. re the parking fines. My daughter phoned the council and the agreed they did not send the parking ticket to her address but one she lived in 4 years ago. So the address on the warrent is not the one she lives in. don't know if thats relevant.

 

however when she moved she also sold the car so there was no need to inform swansea of her new address just the new keeper details which she did,

 

I was told i have to file a out of time declaration but on reading that form it states it must be completed but the registered keeper which is no longer her!! can anyone tell us which form she needs to fill in please.

[Pen]

Hi Guy's we desperitly need some advice but it's a bit complicated. I have posted it in the parking ticket section but they sugested i post here as well!

 

in around 2008 My daughter who lives in London sold her car to my son who lives in yorkshire she was moving in to rented accommodation so sold her car as well. she filled and sent of the change of keeper details. But did not inform them of where she was moving too as there was no need since she was no longer the owner.

 

Today she received a letter from a bailif company demanding £1000 plus for 2 parking fines, i gather they would be from when my son had the car. My son knew about 1 of them because he went to the council offices and filled in the forms to appeal against it but heard nothing more from them.

he to has moved house a few times. both were students hence the house moves. We did contact the council officed involved and they agreed that they sent the ticket to a completly different address to the one she lives at. The address on the warrent is not the address she lives at either. Her main worry is she is sharing the house with other students and any one of them could allow the bailif in with out thinking.

 

what do we do? neither of them can afford such a large fine. who does my daughter have to contact to say the car was not her's and what can my son do? we did think of filling a out of time form but on that form it states it has to be completed by the registered owner which she no longer is

 

can someone please advise us were in a right panic????

Edited May 19, 2010 by Pen

[lamma]

She still needs to fill it in. she should prevail in this is she sticks at it and avoids the bailiff/council tricks. google the last three words in this sentence, bailiff advice online

[tomtubby]

Hi Guy's we desperitly need some advice but it's a bit complicated. I have posted it in the parking ticket section but they sugested i post here as well!

 

in around 2008 My daughter who lives in London sold her car to my son who lives in yorkshire she was moving in to rented accommodation so sold her car as well. she filled and sent of the change of keeper details. But did not inform them of where she was moving too as there was no need since she was no longer the owner.

 

Today she received a letter from a bailif company demanding £1000 plus for 2 parking fines, i gather they would be from when my son had the car. My son knew about 1 of them because he went to the council offices and filled in the forms to appeal against it but heard nothing more from them.

he to has moved house a few times. both were students hence the house moves. We did contact the council officed involved and they agreed that they sent the ticket to a completly different address to the one she lives at. The address on the warrent is not the address she lives at either. Her main worry is she is sharing the house with other students and any one of them could allow the bailif in with out thinking.

 

what do we do? neither of them can afford such a large fine. who does my daughter have to contact to say the car was not her's and what can my son do? we did think of filling a out of time form but on that form it states it has to be completed by the registered owner which she no longer is

 

can someone please advise us were in a right panic????

 

This is actually very SIMPLE.

 

All that is needed is for your daughter to contact the Traffic ENFORCEMENT CENTRE (this is the admin centre attached to Northampton County Court who authorise all Warrants of Execution for unpaid PCN's).

 

You need to complete 2 Out of Time Declarations on that basis that she had not received any statutory notices as these had all been sent to a wrong address.

 

Once completed and returned to TEC all enforcement will CEASE.

 

The TEC can be contacted on 08457 045 007 and they open at 8.30 and close at 4pm.