PCN and appeal - 50% discount

[francktherabbit]

Hello,

I'll try and keep it short;

Received 3 tickets in ealing for the same offence - no resident permit displayed. I appealed becuase it was during the december snows, the permit had fallen on the floor (you could still see it - I have a picture) and I didn't check the car because I didn't want to drive it on the icy roads.

The council cancelled one of the PCNs but not the other two. This is the first bit I don't understand - it was the same reason for all 3 so if the reason for canceling one was good enough why not for the others?

And, if I wait for the NTO to be sent on these two will I lose the chance to take advantage of the 50% discount?

It's probably less risky to just cut my losses but I reckon this is what they want me to do and it's so inconsistent I wondered if anyone had some good advice.

 

Cheers.

[Jamberson]

Did you appeal them all in the same letter, or individually?

 

If individually, which one was cancelled (first PCN, second, or third)?

 

If individually, did you send identical appeal letters?

 

This is certainly worth a closer look, if you could answer these questions first.

[neeze9]

Perhaps they gave you the benefit of doubt on the first occasion, and cancelled the PCN as a gesture of goodwill. What was the time difference between all 3 offences? Having received a PCN for "not displaying valid ticket or permit" to then get another two for the same reason would seem careless, the onus is on you to ensure the permit you hold is displayed.

Sorry if this is not the answer you were looking for but it could explain why the remaining 2 PCN's have not been cancelled.

[francktherabbit]

Thank you. The answer to both questions is;

 

Jamberson = Yes all in the same letter

 

Neeze9 = It was all in one week during the snowy weather and hence I didn't go back to my car but I agree with you as I guess it is up to me.

 

Lastly, one more question, if I do pursue this and lose, will I be liable for any of the councils costs?

 

Thanks again for replying.

[Jamberson]

No - no costs. The issue is you will be allowing the discount to lapse by pursuing it. It will cost you more in the end, if you are unsuccessful.

 

The council should treat appeals with consistency. Since the letter was the same for each PCN, then the grounds of appeal don't differ. It's a bit tricky because you have to second-guess what the Council's position will be if you take it further.

 

If the rejection letters you got were all sent by the same person on the same date, you can assume they have deliberately cancelled one and enforced the others. They can do this, depending how they see the case.

 

If they were sent by different people, or at different times, it might be unintentional in which case you have grounds to challenge them.

 

You cannot be made to pay two PCNs for the same contravention. If the car moved, then returned, each PCN will be for a different contravention. Also, when the clock passes midnight, it's a new date and so you could receive another PCN on that day, even if the car has not moved.

 

All I can suggest is you try and work out whether they intentionally enforced two and cancelled one. If they did, perhaps you should pay at the discounted rate?

 

If you think they did not, and there's no consistency, I would contact them now and talk to them about it. Try and see where they are coming from and they might agree that all three should be cancelled. (They won't re-activate the cancelled one - so it can only go in your favour.) If they agree in principle that they should have cancelled them all, then yes, fight on.

[francktherabbit]

Thank you. Good advice. What a great forum, I'll pass it around.

 

Cheers.

[bribri]

Aside form the consistency issue, all the ususal considerations apply. There may be errors in signage, lines or the PCN notice itself. Please post up photos and documents. What may happen is if you give the council enough other questions, they may rather gracefully withdraw the PCNs on the grounds you have already succeeded on one. This would save them examining lines, signs etc.

[francktherabbit]

Thank you Bribri but the signs and lines are all good. I guess I was only appealing on the grounds that if the reason for canceling one was good enough, why not the other two? However, as Jamberson has pointed out, this was probably good will. I guess I'm just frustrated that as I clearly have a permit - and if the warden took the time he'd have seen it - that they couldn't cancel all of them.

[lamma]

You know the isgns and lines are all good for certain ? you checked with the TSRGD ?

[Jamberson]

A local authority I once worked for adopted the policy of enforcing the first PCN on an unmoved car and cancelling the others. This was following general advice from the adjudicator on the principle of proportionality (ie if you leave your car somewhere and go away for a week, you could end up with 7 PCNs - £560 for one error; punch someone in the head and you may get a £50 fine!)

 

So that was their policy. Your own local authority might have one too, and it might be an accidental matter that they enforced one or both of the outstanding ones.

 

Technicalities do sometimes arise with signs and lines, and also details on the PCN/letters. If you want to post up copies and photos, someone may spot something?

[francktherabbit]

Why not. Worth a try. Here it is - hope you don't get too bored.

 

1) Is the canceling of the PCN

 

2&3) Letter upholding the other ones - 3 was exactly the same but obviously a different PCN number.

 

All the above signed by the same person and sent on the same day.

 

4) Is the initial letter

 

Picture is were the permit ended up on the floor - this was taken through the window and you could see it - tenuous I know.

 

Thanks all.

[Jamberson]

Can't read them I'm afraid.

 

You'd need to go to a website like Photobucket. Load them on there, and each will have its own URL. Copy and paste that on here, and we can link to it and look at the images.

[francktherabbit]

I'll try a pdf - let me know if this works any better - if not I'll try photobucket.

parking.pdf

Edited February 18, 2010 by francktherabbit