Help with full and final

[Ron 2015]

Hi all

 

I have this very short letter from DCA offering a F&F that I want to pay at around 30%.

 

Allied International Credit

Februarv

 

 

 

Dear

AIC REFERENCE NO:

RE: CLIENT NAME:

CLIENT REFERENCE NO:

BALANCE OUTSTANDING:Further to our recent telephone conversation we can confirm that subject to your full

remittance of ~~~~ on or before ++++++, neither we nor our client will pursue

you any further in regards to the above account.

 

Upon receipt of payment, the credit reference bureau(s) will be notified to render outstanding defaults as satisfied on any and all such files relating to the above account.

 

Please note, we recommend payment is made by bankers draft I guaranteed cheque /

debit card or bank giro credit. If you are paying by bank giro credit the details are as

follows:

IISBC Bank plc.

Account Name:

Account Number:

Sort Code:

Allied International Credit (UK) Limited

 

 

Payment sent by post should be forwarded for the attention of the undersigned with a stamped

self-addressed envelope if a receipt is required.

Yours faithfully

AL CREDIT ruI() LIMITED.

Allied International Credit (UK) Limited

Anderston House, 389 Argyle Street, Glasgow, G2 8LR

Registered in England & Wales RegistrationNo 984439

Registered Office: Office No 5, The Clock Tower, Chineham, Basingstoke, RG24 8BQ

To help improve our service we may monitor or record telephone calls.

 

COLLBCTION

 

___________________________________________________

 

It seems a bit brief , I have asked for the following

 

1. Full and final to be mentioned on the letter.

2.A commitment from the DCA and OC not persue the debt in the future.

3. Account marked as satisfied and nil balance with CRA's.

 

They say they will not extend the repayment date ( just being bullies ).

 

I think it would be unsafe to send off the third party cheque until I have the above in writting.

 

Have I missed anything ?

 

Anyone know where there is a template for F&F.

 

Many Thanks in advance

 

Ron

 

Edited February 10, 2010 by Ron 2015
Extra info

[Ron 2015]

Forgot to say there is no mention of the specific acc number , the outsatnding balance is right. I think it should have the right account number.

[patrickq1]

without the account number and the assurances asked for its a no no also how old is the debt past six years without any contact then its statute barred ,have you seen any contract /agreement ....i would nt trust a dca as far as i could throw fifty ton brick hope that answers your questions lol just do not trust them you need it in writing from the OC as well otherwise they will promise to tell the truth when they get to hell n back...

[Ron 2015]

Hi

 

Its less than 6 yrs old , the cca they have was from around 2004 , its an upgrade card CCA. The original from 1999 has never been suplied. I would expect a judge to rule the 2004 one is ok and enforce on that. I dont think they know they have the 2004 one. I only got when I did a SAR.

 

So I will try and get the right commitment from the DCA , but if they won't comply then I will not pay. And it will be their problem. Cest la vie.....

 

Cheers Patrick

[Ron 2015]

Hi

 

The DCA keeps ringing me saying that the letter is perfectly legal and it binds them to not persue the debt.

 

I have written to them and Lloyds pointing out that they put full and final on offers. I am starting to think the dca is just playing with me.

 

I have heard it said that they earn 4K plus a month , I wonder how when they refuse to provide an acceptable settlement letters.

 

I am puzzled , I thought the hard part would be getting them to accept 30% in F&F. They accepted the offer quite easily , but the hard part is now getting a letter commiting them to it.

 

Ho Hum...

[Guest HeftyHippo]

depends how much hard ball yu wanna play

 

1) send the 3rd party cheque with a 3rd party letter stating YOUR terms, and instructing them to return the cheque within say 10 days if it is not acceptable. write the main terms on the back of the cheque. make a copy of them both, maybe get the letter witnessed. If they cash the 3rd party cheque they have accepted the conditions attached to it whether they mean to or not

 

2) write to them giving them an ultimatum - either do as you request and are write their letter how you want it, or you withdraw your offer and they can pursue you any way they like

 

3) write to them offering a lower amount

Edited February 18, 2010 by HeftyHippo

[Ron 2015]

Thanks Hefty

 

Thanks for the advice. I especially like number 3! LOL

 

But I think I will try 2 as if they really want to settle in F&F why the problem putting it down in a letter in the correct format?

 

The funny thing is they never even sent CCA , just a letter saying they would not have sent a card without a completed CCA. No true copy nothing.

 

I got a SAR from them and there was a CCA from 2004 ( original card taken out in 2000 ) which looks enforceable. This was for an upgrade card.

 

So maybe they will try and enforce with 2004 CCA if they know that they have it. But I expect any POC to make reference to an agreement in 2000. So I may get lucky if it gets that far.

 

Incidentally, I am sure that with a Morgan Stanley card I applied over the phone . I didn't apply actually. They called me , a cold call. A cold call for a credit card , is that legal ?

 

Once when I contacted them on the phone they asked my date of birth which I gave. They told me it was wrong !!!

 

I now know that the cold caller just input any old tosh just to get the card issued and commission paid. If Barclaycard ever try and claim I will shout to the heavens that I didn't sign anything. We will see if they are stupid enough.

 

I will probably just end up waiting out the six years for all this stuff to drop off my credit file. I wont be able to move house until then. C'est la vie.

 

Ron

[Guest HeftyHippo]

either will do. I think their letter would do it as well but why theyre messing about for the sake of a few words I dont know. maybe they like power games or don't actually know the meaining of the words

 

anyway if i remember correctly, if the amount id disputed, and you offer a settlement in full, they can accept the money and still pursue yu for the balance. thats why people say to get a 3rd party cheque, but most people don't realise, a 3rd party letter is the only foolproof way. if your brother (say) writes them a letter and says the cheque is in full settlement of your debt, return within 10 days if you disagree, and they cash the cheque, they have created a contract with your brother, a conidtion of which is that your debt is settled in full. I would do that.

[The Mould]

Hello Ron 2015,

 

For your attention - The Law (Case Law) in "Full and Final Settlement" -404yrs old (1606).

 

Before you enter into any settlement payment check out the abovementiond case law.

 

Firstly, let me just say that if you prepare a letter of offer of "Full and Final Settlement" to your creditor make sure that you script it concisely, that is to say, do not force the payment on the creditor (Dangle a carrot, so to speak) you must act with consideration.

 

Equally, your creditor must not act deceitfully, also ensure that there is a "Meeting of the minds", the agreement that, at the very least, your creditor will take into consideration the lesser sum and possibly accept the lesser sum in return for discharge of the debt.

 

There are some circumstances when a cheque sent in "Full and final settlement" will discharge a debt if paid in (Banked) by the creditor.

 

1. The cheque is offered in circumstances where there is a dispute about the amount owed.

 

2. The offer in "Full and Final Settlement" is made at the time the cheque is presented.

 

3. The creditor presents the cheque in payment and it is duly honoured.

 

4. At the time of presenting the cheque or within a short time thereafter the creditor fails to inform the payer that the cheque is not accepted in "Full and Final Settlement.(The rejection)

 

Number four (4) in the above list is critical. (For the creditor)

 

Otherwise, as explaned by the Law Courts, paying in and clearance of the cheque is a clear and unequivocal acceptance, furthermoore, if the creditor banks a cheque from a third party in "Full and Final Settlement" of a sum (Whether or not disputed) owed by the debtor the creditor will have signified acceptance of it as discharge of the debt.

 

I hope this will help you, good luck.

 

The Mould

[Guest HeftyHippo]

ron, I'm not sure of the intentions of the above poster, but in short, he is confirming that the creditor can pay in your F&F cheque and then pursue you for the rest.

 

he has quoted the following post (except case law goes back to 1602 not 1606 as he said)

The Law – ‘Full and final settlement’ - Voltimum UK - Electrical Installation Products and Contracting

 

"

Summary:

The circumstances in which you will be bound by a cheque made out in 'full and final settlement' are as follows:

 

• The cheque is offered in circumstances where there is a dispute about the amount owed.
  
• The offer in 'full and final settlement' of the dispute is made at the time the cheque is presented.
  
• You present the cheque in payment and it is duly honoured.
  
• At the time of presenting the cheque or within a short time thereafter you fail to inform the payer that the cheque is not accepted in 'full and final settlement'Number 4 in the above list is critical.
  

Otherwise, as the Court of Appeal explained in another case, Ferguson v Davis; '...paying in and clearance of the cheque [is] a clear and unequivocal acceptance...'"

 

read it yourself (and follow it up by reading the Appeal Court rulings) and you'll see my earlier post is correct ie where the cost/balance is disputed, a cheque can be 'accepted' in full and final settlement and you can then be pursued for the balance.

 

Let me point out for readers who do not know, a vital part of any contract is "consideration", ie, something you give up that benefits the other party. if there is no consideration, no contract is formed. In the event of a dispute, consideration may be said to be in the form of a sum now with no arguing, rather than arguing and litigation that may yield no more than the offer - in other words, the consideration (benefit) is the saving of time and cost of arguing and litigation and the benefit of having the money now (cash flow and interest whilst its in the bank)

 

I would add that IMHO, a 3rd party cheque does not necessarily do the job. If you exchange money for someone elses cheque, that person has not provided any 'consideration' to the creditor. Consequently, there is no contract between the 3rd party and creditor. They have simply facilitated a transfer of money. Their only effort is to bank your money and tear out and sign a cheque - that cannot be considered to be valuable. Same if you get a bankers draft or postal order and send that as F&F - would anyone believe that the bank or Post Office even intended to enter a contract with your creditor let alone actually did so? NO, of course not.

 

If the 3rd party gifts you the money, maybe to be paid back at a later date, then THEY have given consideration to the creditor, not you, and hence THEY have offered a contract to the creditor (cheque to be exchanged for money in return for F&F settlement). If the creditor banks the cheque they have entered into a contract, and if it clears, the 3rd party has met its obligations and the creditor should meet theirs.

 

if YOU write a letter and send with the 3rd party cheque, the creditor could argue that it isn't the 3rd party trying to make a contract with them, its you (using the bank/post office logic). a creditor won't know if the cheque has been bought by you or gifted to you, but it will come out in court - which is where youre trying to avoid being. it all gets messy from there, but if you bought the cheque its possible a judge could decide that the contract offer was yours not the 3rd party, and the creditor was within its right to cash it and pursue the balance.

 

If the 3rd party writes a letter and sends his cheque, then it is clear that he is offering a contract, and not you. even if you bought the cheque, you entered into a contract with the 3rd party such that you paid him money and his end was that he wrote a cheque and letter. he benefited from having cash in his hand to save going to the bank and your gift of gratitude (£10), you benefit from a reduction in your debt from the original balance to the f&F as well as having the debt marked satisfied on the CRA files. The creditor benefits from money now without further arguing and can close the file

 

That's the end of my contribution, if anyone disagrees they can do, I don't mind and don't have an ego such that I'll get involved in long winded debate about it.

Edited February 19, 2010 by HeftyHippo

[Ron 2015]

Thanks Mould and Hefty

 

Very informative.

 

I think I will avoid there being any doubt about what is taking place by forcing the DCA to provide a proper letter. When I settled with Egg I received a Tomlin order which said everything as clear as day and involved the court, so no trickery.

 

As they have no year 2000 CCA and as I have no money , income or any equity , even if they win they will get no money or £1 per week.

 

So getting my relative to pay £5k is quite good of me. Just trying to do the right thing for me. But they are making it such hard work !!

 

If they wont send me the right letter then I will tell them to take me to court and try and claim. I already have 13 defaults , what does one extra CCJ make if they win ?

 

Many Thanks Ron

[The Mould]

Thanks Mould and Hefty

 

Very informative.

 

I think I will avoid there being any doubt about what is taking place by forcing the DCA to provide a proper letter. When I settled with Egg I received a Tomlin order which said everything as clear as day and involved the court, so no trickery.

 

As they have no year 2000 CCA and as I have no money , income or any equity , even if they win they will get no money or £1 per week.

 

So getting my relative to pay £5k is quite good of me. Just trying to do the right thing for me. But they are making it such hard work !!

 

If they wont send me the right letter then I will tell them to take me to court and try and claim. I already have 13 defaults , what does one extra CCJ make if they win ?

 

Many Thanks Ron

 

Hello again Ron 2015,

 

I think its great that your relative is able to help you, however, before you send any settlement payment to your creditor ensure that there is an agreement in place (The meeting of the minds).

 

Your relative dose not have to enter into any agreement with your creditor, but you do have to make sure that you have your creditors agreement of sending in the payment for consideration to be given as to whether or not they accept it in "Full and Final Settlement" of your account.

 

A cheque sent in settlement of any acount is nearly always from a third party, communication is the key if you want to avoid sending in the settlement payment only for it to be "Mindlessly Banked" by your creditor.

 

Any creditor who banks a third party cheque sent in as a "Full and Final Settlement" wil be bound by the terms the said cheque was tendered by.

 

Even if the creditor provides a swift "Rejection" either before or after the paying in and clearance of the cheque (Third party cheque) then the creditor will be precluded from pursuing the debtor for the remaining balance, the creditor will have no legal right of ownership of the balance.

 

If I can give you some advice (Hope you don't mind), you should send a letter to your creditor that fully corresponds with their settlement offer,

TITLE your letter - REFERENCE: FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT OFFER.

 

Suggest an amount lower than the £5,000.00 that your relative has raised or saved, and ask them (Creditor) if they can accept this amount in order to settle and close the account, and that the balance would be zero and no further amount or monies would be owed.

 

Your creditor should them write back with a communication that fully corresponds and cross references your letter, and they will either say YES thank you very much indeed please forward the settlement payment to our office within the 28 days and your account will be settled and closed and no futher amount or monies owed.

 

OR

 

Your creditor will write back and say something along the lines of -

 

Dear Mr Nice,

 

Thank you for your letter offering xyz£ as a "Full and Final Settlement Payment" to your account, unfortunately we are unable to accept that amount as a "Full and Final Settlement", however, the amount that we are prepared to accept in order to settle and close your account is £xyz and if you are able to forward this amount to our office within the next 28 days we will accept it as a settlement payment and settle and close your account with us.

 

If you do things this way then I 'm sure you will have something solid in writing from your creditor (An agreement) and then hopefully you will be able to forget about this particular episode in your life, and enjoy your life.

 

Well I hope that this does not cause any confusion, my intentions are good, I am simply trying to help, and I have offered my advice to you based on my very, very dreadful expierience with "Full and Final Settlements".

 

Good Luck Ron, let us know how it turns out.

 

The Mould

[Ron 2015]

Hi all

 

I got a letter from the DCA with all the right terms in it.

 

But they only gave me one day to get the money to them !

 

Why are they playing around so much ?

 

I have written back asking for more time.

 

I think they will send another letter allowing more time without the correct terms next.

 

Does anyone regulate these people ?

 

I feel a letter of complaint coming on.

 

Cheers Ron

[Ron 2015]

Update

 

The DCA has now written saying the offer is withdrawn!

 

They want me to telephone them ( when hell freezes over !).

 

I sent a copy of their silly letters to the OC and have asked for 7 days from receipt of a proper F&F letter.

 

I can't understand why they are being so weird.

 

Cheers

 

Ron

[The Mould]

Update

 

The DCA has now written saying the offer is withdrawn!

 

They want me to telephone them ( when hell freezes over !).

 

I sent a copy of their silly letters to the OC and have asked for 7 days from receipt of a proper F&F letter.

 

I can't understand why they are being so weird.

 

Cheers

 

Ron

 

Hello again Ron 2015,

 

Well it seems to me that the DCA is playing with you (Very underhanded indeed), and it's a good thing that you never sent any money in response to their offer of Full and Final Settlement because they would of taken the payment fron you and then they would of denied all knowledge of it.

 

Under no circumstances should you make any telephone contact with them, keep every communication in writing only, state to the DCA that their offer of Full and Final Settlement with you giving you one day to make the payment, is extremely unfair and unreasonable, the offer of agreeing to a Full and Final Settlement should be valid for at least a 28 day period, which would give you and your relative enough time to make the necessary arrangement of sending in the settlement payment.

 

I hope this will help your situation, inform the original creditor that you are in a position to make a settlement payment to the account with the great help from your relative and explain to the original creditor that the DCA is being most unreasonable, you should also state that you are not ignoring your debt to them as your relative is making a great effort to help pay off as much of the debt as possible.

 

Inform both the original creditor and the DCA that if they continue acting with such unreasonable conduct, then the opportunity will be lost to make any settlement payment with them, and should they then take legal action against you (Take you to court) you will be able to show the court the efforts and consideration that were undertaken and given by you and your relative to bring about an amicable conclusion to this matter, whereas, they (The OC & the DCA) WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO SHOW THE COURT THEIR UNFAIR AND UNREASONABLE CONDUCT in relation to giving assistance to you in the time of your financial crises.

 

And if the above should happen, (I truly hope it does not) there would be a very high probability that any court in this England would show no favor to the OC or the DCA because the courts do not appreciate, and take no liking to any attitudes or conduct that is either unfair or unreasonable, and so the court would be more likely than not to write off your debt to them and dismiss their claim.

 

Good luck Ron, I hope everything will work out well for you.

 

The Mould

[Guest HeftyHippo]

I am afraid I have to disagree with virtually everything written above. The court will not be bothered by how the DCA behaved, it is only concerned about the facts of whether a debt exists or not, by whom and to whom, and if it can be paid back, and if so, by how much and over how long.

 

Any idea that the court will write off a debt because the debtor was mistreated by a creditor is complete rubbish. The court doesn't have any power to write off a debt under any circumstances. If it exists, it is payable. If it can't be paid to the satisfaction of the creditor, there are various options such as bankruptcy and charging orders that can be pursued. If it won't be paid there are attachment of earnings orders and bailiffs. The court only makes decision about the existence of a debt, the conduct of the creditor is a matter for regulatory bodies and professional associations, not the court.

 

In the rare event that a judge felt conduct was unreasonable, he may comment on it, he may even write to a regulatory body about it, but he has no power to intervene and no power to punish the miscreant by altering the size of the debt. Just think, if he thought a debtor had acted unreasonable, he could increase the size of the debt according to that logic. Total tosh.

 

I thought I had already unsubscribed from this thread, but I am now because I have no wish to waste time correcting such dislusions

[pumpytums]

H Ron,

I cannot comment on the above posts about the debt getting written off, as I have no knowledge of this area. However I think you are doing the right thing by writing to the OC, we all know DCA's lie to get the last penny out of you. Looking at their tactics it looks like they just want to scare you into paying more and quickly over the phone with a debit card.

 

Is the debt enforceable, have you sent a CCA?

 

Pumpytums

[pumpytums]

Hi again Ron,

I have just don3 some digging DO NOT PAY the DCA a penny. They have a history of taking F&F then going after the rest. Search for the DCA on CAG.

 

The DCA is trying to bully you big time, they have a history of this. They know you have some cash available from a relative. I would imagine they will try every trick to get it.

 

Take a step back and get a SAR off to the OC. Am I right in thinking no proper CCA response has ever been received?

 

Send a letter to the OC and DCA saying that the account is in dispute as no CCA response has been received.

 

 

Pumpytums

[The Mould]

I am afraid I have to disagree with virtually everything written above. The court will not be bothered by how the DCA behaved, it is only concerned about the facts of whether a debt exists or not, by whom and to whom, and if it can be paid back, and if so, by how much and over how long.

 

Any idea that the court will write off a debt because the debtor was mistreated by a creditor is complete rubbish. The court doesn't have any power to write off a debt under any circumstances. If it exists, it is payable. If it can't be paid to the satisfaction of the creditor, there are various options such as bankruptcy and charging orders that can be pursued. If it won't be paid there are attachment of earnings orders and bailiffs. The court only makes decision about the existence of a debt, the conduct of the creditor is a matter for regulatory bodies and professional associations, not the court.

 

In the rare event that a judge felt conduct was unreasonable, he may comment on it, he may even write to a regulatory body about it, but he has no power to intervene and no power to punish the miscreant by altering the size of the debt. Just think, if he thought a debtor had acted unreasonable, he could increase the size of the debt according to that logic. Total tosh.

 

I thought I had already unsubscribed from this thread, but I am now because I have no wish to waste time correcting such dislusions

 

Hello Hefty Hippo,

 

In Full and Final Settlement cases (Case Law) The CONDUCT OF BOTH THE CREDITOR AND THE DEBTOR IS ABSOLUTELY TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT BY THE COURTS.

 

Any unfair or unreasonable conduct in any civil case by either the claimant or the defendant will cause the court to do more than merely comment on such appalling conduct.

 

For example, in Full and Final Settlements, if the Creditor has behaved in such a way as to induce the Debtor into believing that if the Debtor should send in a payment and that it will be accepted or considered for acceptance as a Full and Final Settlement, and then banks the payment and makes the attempt to pursue the debtor for the remaining balance, then the courts WILL STRIKE OUT THE CLAIM BY THE CREDITOR BECAUSE THE CONDUCT OF THE CREDITOR IN CIRCUMSTANCES SUCH AS THESE IS ABSOLUTELY DECIETFUL, AND THAT IS, ABSOLUTELY UNFAIR, UNREASONABLE AND UNJUST.

 

Undoubtedly, each case will be Judged on the set of circumstances to it.

 

I have provided Ron 2015 with solid, sound and professional advise based on "HANDS ON" expierence in this particular field of LAW, the advise that I am willing to give to Ron 2015 is absolutely designed to assist him.

 

Heffty Hippo, if you are going to continue to mock every post/entry that I place here for RON 2015, then I respectfully ask of you to kindly refrain from doing so, and instead post some proper, top drawer legal advice to Ron 2015, Heffty Hippo, your CONDUCT IS ABSOLUTELY UNWARRANTED, UNFAIR, UNREASONABLE AND UNJUST, AND IF YOU WERE TO PORTRAY THIS ATTITUDE IN COURT YOU WOULD BE SCORNED AT BY THE JUDGE, I politely ask you to bury your disrespectful comments and attitude towards me and my posts to RON 2015.

 

I should like to express my gratitude to you in advance for you kind consideration and attention to this communication.

 

The Mould

[The Mould]

Hi again Ron,

I have just don3 some digging DO NOT PAY the DCA a penny. They have a history of taking F&F then going after the rest. Search for the DCA on CAG.

 

The DCA is trying to bully you big time, they have a history of this. They know you have some cash available from a relative. I would imagine they will try every trick to get it.

 

Take a step back and get a SAR off to the OC. Am I right in thinking no proper CCA response has ever been received?

 

Send a letter to the OC and DCA saying that the account is in dispute as no CCA response has been received.

 

 

Pumpytums

 

Hello there Pumpytums,

 

 

Ron 2015 as you can see the above post is confirming what I have been saying in relation to the deceitful behaviour of DCA'S, I would simply like to add that every post of mine in response to your post is designed to assist you so as you don't fall into any traps (So to speak) set up by the DCA'S.

 

I hope this confirms for you, that my intentions and my advise is absolutely provided to you to help defend you, I loath the DCA'S and all their underhand and so very wrongful tactics.

 

Many Thanks

 

The Mould

[Ron 2015]

Hi Pummpy and Mould

 

Thanks for your interest , I am going to wait until they either send a correct letter or take me to court.

 

Until then I shall wait and deal with the sd I received recently.

[Ron 2015]

Hi Pummpy

 

In response to your note on the 15th.

 

They have never provided any CCA , dont think they have one.

 

I have sent the in dispute letter.

 

They replied that they do not have to provide a cca and sent me the current terms and conditions.

 

Although I did SAR them and they sent a copy of a 2005 cca which was some sort of upgrade card......

 

I dont know if this would scupper me....

[The Mould]

Hi Pummpy

 

In response to your note on the 15th.

 

They have never provided any CCA , dont think they have one.

 

I have sent the in dispute letter.

 

They replied that they do not have to provide a cca and sent me the current terms and conditions.

 

Although I did SAR them and they sent a copy of a 2005 cca which was some sort of upgrade card......

 

I dont know if this would scupper me....

 

Hello Ron2015,

 

If they want to enforce the agreement, then they do need to produce the agreement/contract that you signed. (The Law)

 

I see that they have not kept their word, as far as "FULL and FINAL" is concerened. Absolutely deceitful so and so's.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[chickenboy]

hi,

is it possible to get a full and final settlement figure from my creditors,sell my house to release the equity, and then pay them the pre arranged figure?

[Ron 2015]

hi,

is it possible to get a full and final settlement figure from my creditors,sell my house to release the equity, and then pay them the pre arranged figure?

 

Theoretically yes . But the time taken getting your creditors to agree a figure......... By the time the last creditor agrees a figure the first creditors offer will have expired.

 

How long will it take to sell your house?

 

Good luck with this one. I would try and keep the house !

 

Ron 2015