ISP changing my package

[MrMT]

I guess altering ISP contracts has been covered before but my searching skills have not brought relative posts to my attention so I apologise if I'm repeating old posts.

 

My contract with Pipex, according to a letter I received from them today, is to be altered on March 1st and with it comes a 50% price increase (current package cost me £9.99) and I quote;

 

"From 1st March your package will be:

Up to 8Mb package

Pipex Hometime

New monthly subscription price £14.99"

 

"And if you sign up for another 12 months on this new package we'll give you Your First 2 Months at Half Price"

 

 

 

On the rear of the letter, in a box Titled;

"Some of your questions answered" it reads;-

 

"Why is my tariff changing?"

"... Following such a review were starting to move all our customers to up to 8Mb broadband packages......These changes have, in some cases, also required a review of package prices"

 

"What do I need to do?"

"If you want to keep your existing service you need to do nothing at all, and remember to get 2 months at half price, just sign up to the package overleaf for another 12 months. Call 0800 542 6538"

 

"Do I need to change my direct debit details?"

"No, your direct debit details will not change in any way - we will continue to apply to your bank for payments on the same day of the month as always."

 

AFAICT, there is no benefit to me and I am not willing to pay the increased charge so I'm certainly not calling them to sign up for another 12 months but I did call them to let them know I don't want the new package to which I was told "There's nothing I can do, you need to cancel"

 

I'm confused because it says my package is changing on the front, yet on the back says I need not do anything if I want to keep my existing service. This is ambiguous.

 

It was advised I call their customer support but being an income-generating number, that's not for me nor my budget.

 

I'd like to do nothing and keep my existing package (Pipex Mini @ £9.99) but I fear come March, I will be charged £14.99 and all the potential inconvenience that goes with straightening it out.

 

Where do I stand, legally? AFAIK, Pipex intend to breach our existing contract by changing me to a differently named Package and increasing the price?

[ashmk]

AOL whom im with and who are owned by the Carphone warehouse who also own pipex called me the other day and asked me to get a new 12 month contract with 2 months free I said im not intrested in a contract with you and they said ok and the call ended.

 

I think the carphone warehouse are calling everyone not tied to them and getting them to sign a new contract.

[geoff1248]

I am also a Pipex customer and have received very nearly the same letter:

Up to 8mb package

Pipex Hometime

Line Rental

New Monthly charge £18.98

 

Like you I do not wish to change from my present package so I will not be calling them at all as I don't need to if I want to keep my existing service.

It will be interesting to see what happens to my direct debit in March.

 

By the way do you pay line rental to Pipex? If so Iwonder why I have been quoted more than you for the same service?

[Mark_Blackpool]

If you do not agree to the change to the terms - in this case, the change of price (it puts you at a material disadvantage) - then you can normally cancel the contract without penalty even if you're still within a minimum contract term.

 

You need to do that in writing within 10 days of being notified of the change, else you are deemed to have accepted the change which will stand.

[MrMT]

ashmk: Your case may be different as I was told doing nothing is accepting the new terms and conditions. Please let me know what happens.

I'd like to know if it's legal, either way.

 

geoff1248: I would advise caution on your approach (see above). In my first post I said the term "existing service" is ambiguous, because I feel it could mean "any service" from Pipex rather than my "existing package". But please do stay in touch and let me know how it pans out.

Mark_Blackpool: Yes, I have the option to cancel my current agreement giving them just one month's notice as I've been on this package for about 2 years now.

 

But is it not the case that changing the terms and conditions without both party's agreement is a breach of contract? For instance, if I wrote a similar letting telling them I will be "upgrading" my package agreement to make it a (better value) subscription and from the 1st March I will only be paying them £0.99 per month and if they don't respond it's accepted? That can't be legal can it? If so, I've got a lot of such changes I'd like to make to all my service agreements.

 

If you consider, by their own admission, they will be taking me off my Mini-Pipex package putting me on a Up to 8Mb Package, aren't they effectively cancelling our old agreement? (I've told them I don't agree to the new package and made sure it's noted on their file). And if so, surely there's nothing for me to cancel? I may be splitting hairs but I'd like clarity all the same.

[hightail]

When I was still on dialup my provider wrote to me and told me they would be discontinuing the service and I should phone them to transfer to broadband. The letter said I would lose my connection a couple of months hence if I did nothing. I took the 'nothing' option with them and organised broadband elsewhere.

 

It was nothing short of a marketing [problem] to get me to upgrade at an unattractive rate. Turned out the dialup option was still going strong when they got in touch with me because I'd cancelled the DD one month after their professed disconnection date. Their loss.

[geoff1248]

I have another reason for not contacting them. If I contact them it confirms to them that I have received their letter detailing the changes to a contract. In order to change a contract they need to be sure that the parties to the contract have received notification of the proposed changes. They have no proof that I have received their revised contract terms. I cannot thus either agree or reject the revised terms if I do not know about them.

They need to either phone me, e-mail me or write to me recorded delivery to ensure I have notification of their revised terms.

A contract cannot be altered without the agreement of all parties and all parties must be made aware of the changes. The PO loose letters, they have no proof of having notified me if I do not contact them.

It will be interesting to see what the March DD shows. However, I bet they phone me before then.

[Mark_Blackpool]

You won't get very far with that.

 

Firstly, it's reasonable for the supplier to post a letter to you. If they have half a million subscribers they're not going to ring each one individually.

 

The best outcome you could hope for is that they will let you off the higher amount for one month/payment, at which point you will be aware of the change, so that won't work a second time. You will unequivocably have had your notification.

 

Most broadband packages are month-to-month. It sounds as though the package you currently have is being discontinued. Just as you can cancel from your end, the supplier can cancel from their end and offer a different package instead.

 

Yes, it is possible for you to vary the terms of a contract. For instance, there is nothing stopping you writing to their head office to suggest a new price stating that you're varying the terms. However that wouldn't work for various reasons I won't go into.

 

Almost all broadband packages now are "up to 8Mbps" - the speed is determined by the rate at which your line can operate which in turn depends on how far you are from the exchange and what the line is made of among other things.

 

There used to be fixed 1Mpbs and 2Mbps services which are still offered by some specialist ISPs on longer lines which struggle to work with anything higher.

 

In short, if you want to only pay the same price as before, shop around and change provider.

[geoff1248]

As I said, we shall see. I would repeat that you cannot change a contract without proof that all parties have received the revised terms. You cannot accept/reject a contract that you know nothing about.

However it is worth noting that in my case the "new" contract just updates other users to the same contract that I am already on. So in fact I get nothing new from the upgrade just a different contract name and an extra £3 a month to pay out for nothing.

[MrMT]

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear? I have a letter stating they (Pipex/Tiscali) will change my service (at a higher cost with no clear benefits to me). AFAIK, this is not legal but their letter and the staff I spoke to on the phone implies that it is.

 

The letter also implies I should "do nothing" to keep my "existing service" but a telephone conversation clarifies this to mean I will be upgraded automatically if I do nothing. Again, isn't this illegal?

 

I would prefer to "do nothing" and keep my existing package but knowing how such large corporations work, doubt this will happen. I therefore asked, via telephone, it be noted on file that I do not agree to the new terms and conditions. Again, I was told "there's nothing we can do" and that I have the option to cancel.

 

If it transpires my wishes are ignored and my lack of action is regarded as acceptance, shown by a new DD charge of £14.99 where do I stand and what are my options?

[Mark_Blackpool]

The letter might be slightly amiguously worded. However what's happened (as I read it is)

 

1. The package you had has been discontinued

2. The nearest package available now is the one stated in the letter

3. The new package is more expensive

 

You can cancel at one month's notice. So can they. They have.

 

They have to give you 30 days notice of the change allowing you the opportunity to reject the change. If you reject the change, the supplier can either 1. continue to supply the previous service at the previous price or 2. close your account. If you attempted to refuse the change then (2) would happen.

 

You don't have that opportunity any more as the 30 days are up. They have correctly notified you in the correct legal manner and given you the opportunity to go somewhere else. Your inaction means you have legally accepted the new terms and are now committed for another month, having pre-paid for that service.

 

Your options are to stay with them on the new package, or find another supplier.

[MrShed]

Of course such a contract can be changed. Sorry guys, appreciate the frustration, but you are on a road to nowhere with this one.

 

Apart from anything else BT Wholesale have discontinued IPStream packages (i.e. fixed line rates on ADSL1).

[MrMT]

Well I'm astounded that simply sending an unrecorded letter stating changes in contract are considered binding without consent, if this is what I'm reading here?!

[MrShed]

You have the option to reject the change, but then they have the option to end the contract.

 

I dont understand what is so taxing about this - such changes happen all the time. Do you seriously expect that you will be able to pay £9.99 in perpetuity for the next 5/10/50/100 years? There is a process in place to changes terms and conditions, and you have the option at this time to agree or not - and when you disagree, you can cancel.

[MrMT]

I know how to cancel my existing contract but I haven't been given an option to reject this upcoming change (that I can see), which is why I demanded it be recorded on file that I don't agree/accept the new package terms.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that their letter is all a court of law needs to see to say, yep, that was legal - you gotta pay?

[MrShed]

Yes.

 

And you can reject the terms - by cancelling.

[Mark_Blackpool]

Well I'm astounded that simply sending an unrecorded letter stating changes in contract are considered binding without consent, if this is what I'm reading here?!

 

Your contract is month-to-month.

 

If you took up their offer and renewed for 12 months, and they decided to change the agreed price during those 12 months, it's rather different.

 

Or, if they came back to you half way through a month and asked you for an extra £5 for the same month, again rather different.

 

As the contract length is one month and renews each month, the change they are making is not within an agreed contract as you were given a month's notice.

[geoff1248]

So your landlord suddenly puts up your rent and says that he sent you a letter saying that if you didn't object within 30 days it is assumed that you agree to the new terms. You never received the letter (or maybe it was never sent) but no matter you are now bound by the new terms. I somehow think not. No way can you agree to something you never knew about.

In this case I do think that Tiscali have made the wording of the letter confusing maybe deliberately. Certainly they can alter the terms of a contract but they cannot assume that a lack of action on your part means an acceptance of their terms. I would suggest you have a word with Trading Standards/Consumer Direct.

[MrShed]

So your landlord suddenly puts up your rent and says that he sent you a letter saying that if you didn't object within 30 days it is assumed that you agree to the new terms. You never received the letter (or maybe it was never sent) but no matter you are now bound by the new terms. I somehow think not.

 

 

Excellent, you've hit on my area of expertise as a rubbish analogy.

 

Actually the landlord can do EXACTLY that. Except in letting its a formal Section 13 rent notice.

 

Whether you like it or not, if a company has posted a letter, it is classed legally as having been received by the recipient.

 

There is no onus on proof of receipt (therefore no recorded delivery required), simply proof of postage.

[Mark_Blackpool]

If the contract were a highly important business one with high values, then yes, the supplier might be advised to verify receipt by the recipient and "sign off" the change.

 

However a broadband provider charging a tenner a month is not going to ring half a million people individually to check they got the letter.

 

It's splitting hairs, so to speak, because even if you were to argue you did not receive the letter, the most you can hope for is that the ISP will let you have the current month at the previous price, at which point you have had notification and so all you do is move the price increase back one month.

[MrShed]

However a broadband provider charging a tenner a month is not going to ring half a million people individually to check they got the letter.

 

Most importantly, theres no legal obligation to do so.

[geoff1248]

I am not a legal expert just a standard guy who maybe got his analogy a bit wrong, however I still think that there is mileage in my opinion.

I assume that we are dealing with Contract Law which requires the basic offer and acceptance. Could someone please explain how I can accept/reject an offer that I knew nothing about?

Unless I have agreed to a rolling contract, which I have not, surely at some point I have to say either yes or no to the new terms.

[MrShed]

How have they not told you about it?

[MrShed]

Rolling contract automatically occurs after the fixed term. You will have agreed to this in the terms when you initially signed up.

[MrMT]

As you can probably tell, I'm of simple mind and of little knowledge of law so please bear with me and try to answer my specific questions if you can.

 

I think we all agree a contract HAS to be agreed by both parties otherwise it is not legally binding? Yes?

 

To circumvent this, I notice clauses are added to such contracts giving the provider the right to change terms and conditions as and when but surely that's too open-ended and just ripe for abuse that there must come a point (a limit) that certain changes can NOT be legally binding without explicit consent of all parties or at least can be successfully challenged in court?

 

A price rise is something we've all come to expect and is considered a change of term and/or condition but I don't see this letter merely as notice of a price increase, this is a complete change in package, not a change in a term or condition of my original contract.

 

IOW, I view this as the provider cancelling my contract (and I believe this was confirmed in an earlier post?). Ergo, I have no contract as of 1st March. Yes?

 

This letter then appears to imply that simply by them writing to me, I am accepting a new contract (another contract) for a new package to which I must pay a 50% increase with no benefit to myself. The fact it is also enticing me to sign up to a new 12-month contract by offering two free months is, IMO, proof that it's a new contract. Yes?