Is this from Apex enforceable?

[flubber02]

I had an Egg Credit Card from 1999 that I got in to trouble with and was paying as much as I could afford every month. Late in 2009 they sold the debt on to Apex Credit Management and they instantly started chasing and trying to get more!

 

I applied for the Credit Agreement and this arrived the other day. I have attached a copy.

 

On page 7 where my address was, the address was my present one and not the one where I lived when I took out the card! Does this mean it might not be the same agreement as the original?

 

I would like to know if anyone can see if this agreement is enforceable. If so, what should my next step be?

 

The amount owed is around £5k.

 

Thanks

Egg Credit Agreement.pdf

[flubber02]

Can anyone help please?

[elliemayjake]

I would also be interested in any replies to this.

[cerberusalert]

Unless I've missed something all I can see are the T&C's, there is neither your signature or their's present so it is impossible to determine whether it has been properly executed. After all anyone can produce an agreement minus signatures and claim it's enforceable.

[flubber02]

It is signed but I removed any personal info so as to remain anonymous!

[hackedoff007]

I too have just recieved something very similar!!! See http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/232330-apex-egg-again-2.html

 

I doubt very much its genuine and on mine there are more than a few tell tale signs of fiddling with!!!

[steven4064]

The main problem with it (provided it is signed) is that it talks about an 'approved limit' and a 'personal limit' but does not talk about a 'credit limit' which is what the regulations require. However, this would only make it unenforceable if the judge agreed and that woud depend on the judge lottery

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

I'm not keen on that "Individal Limit"/"Approved Limit" arguement. Wilson v Hurstanger at para 11, the court of appeal adopted some of the trial judge's analysis of the law, concerning the nature of the "Prescribed Terms":

 

"certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify"

 

"On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1."

 

It is pretty clear that what Egg are talking about is the credit limit, and as a contractual term it's clearly there. That's all that is required for Schedule 6. The debtor does not have to understand that it is the credit limit, provided the court can.

[steven4064]

ECPR

 

I'm not keen on it either - just pointing out a view

[flubber02]

It's not clear then! Any suggestions? My thinking is write to Apex pointing it out and offering a settlement. Does this sound a logical step to people?

[Melbel]

Ive got exactly the same as you and dont know if its enforcable.

 

The only difference is - mine was applied for online and i had to tick a box rather than sign - apparently this is the same as signing.

 

As for the address - theyve done the same with me

[flubber02]

Does anyone have any advice what I can write to Apex or a standard letter? Please

[WelshMam2009]

I'm slightly confused by the document you've posted Flubber, especially if it is supposed to have been taken out in 1999.

 

There's a set of t&c's which I'm presuming were the originals as they refer to approved limit. Then you have a document headed Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states that this is an agreement between :

 

Egg Banking PLC of

Citigroup Centre

Canada Square

London

E14 5LB

 

and you....with your current address inserted. That doument appears current as it refers to Credit Limit and therefore, cannot be an accurately reconstututed document. Furthermore, Egg were owned by the Prudential Group and not Citibank in 1999 and the official address on my agreement from circa 2000 was Basildon SS14 9AA.

 

This is not right at all as far as I can tell!!

[flubber02]

My document states Egg is part of Prudential. Not sure where you saw Citibank!

 

One more query, I have a copy of the original T&Cs. They have a signature from Egg already on them. Not a real signature but a scanned one or similar. Is this allowed? It is the same as the one on the T&Cs I have posted earlier.

 

I am confused now!! Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to do next? Do I assume it is unenforceable and ignore Apex as long as I can or do I back out and try to settle/go back to a minimum payment plan (all I can afford now unfortunately).

 

I would appreciate any help please. Thanks

[WelshMam2009]

My document states Egg is part of Prudential. Not sure where you saw Citibank!

 

Ok....pages 1 to 6 (inclusive) appear to be a copy of the terms and conditions that prevailed at the time you took out the card. On page 7, is where the agreement appears to be and this is where Citi Banks details are! That is followed by what appears to be a copy of current terms and conditions.

 

However, this is not a standard Egg agreement....can you indicate where your signature was on this document exactly?

[WelshMam2009]

One more query, I have a copy of the original T&Cs. They have a signature from Egg already on them. Not a real signature but a scanned one or similar. Is this allowed?

 

The Egg agreements are pre-signed, to the best of my knowledge and I'm uncertain as to the implications of this...sorry!! I have heard of arguments against application forms which were pre-signed and were supposed to double up as agreements, as no application was sure of being accepted, and hence, could not be a legally binding agreement. However, in Egg's case, these agreements were issued post-acceptance.

[steven4064]

It doesnt really matter in the end -it is your signature that matters

[flubber02]

Well spotted Welsh Mam! Egg had nothing to do with Citigroup at this time. My signature is nowhere on this CCA but is on a bit of the agreement I didnt post with Egg's signature below it (copy). I can post it if this is any use.

 

If this current copy of my T&Cs has mistakes on it, any suggestions as to my next move?

 

I have in fact got my copy of the original T&Cs from when I took out the card. Always held on to them so can compare against the ones supplied by Apex now!

[flubber02]

Does anyone know a good solicitor who takes on cases like these? Just wondering if it is easier to let someone else sort it as I am a little in the dark!

[flubber02]

Does anyone have any suggestions what to do next as Apex have now started hassling again? Do I just sit tight, offer them a low F&F settlement or call them and restart the payment plan I had with Egg?

 

This whole business is confusing the hell out of me

 

Thanks

[cerberusalert]

Have you received a Default Notice yet?

[flubber02]

No I haven't received any default notices yet. I have refused to talk to Apex so far since they took over this debt last November.

Edited March 5, 2010 by flubber02
Update

[flubber02]

I've had a answerphone message threatening further action if I don't call by 8pm tonight! Nice

[WelshMam2009]

Does anyone have any suggestions what to do next as Apex have now started hassling again? Do I just sit tight, offer them a low F&F settlement or call them and restart the payment plan I had with Egg?

 

Ok Flubber...deep breaths now and calm down!!

 

Loads of Caggers are in the same situation. Have you checked out Melbel's thread (link below)?? She is going to send them a watered down version of the letter shown. Essentially stating that the agreement is unenforceable.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/231975-apex-credit-have-bought-2.html#post2805582

 

 

I've had a answerphone message threatening further action if I don't call by 8pm tonight! Nice

 

Have you sent them a letter telling them not to contact you by phone and not to visit you at home yet? If not, then now's the time. If you have already told them then you need to start sending off some complaints to Apex, OFT and Trading Standards.

 

I don't honestly believe that Apex will be starting any court action immediately. Just like us, I imagine that they will be waiting for the outcome of the court case in Cardiff regarding enforceability of agreements.

 

When Apex purchased these accounts I think they thought we would all be like lambs to the slaughter on the basis that we had negotiated monthly payments with Egg. How wrong they were!!

 

I think you need to go back to Apex with a letter telling them to stop the harrassment. I would also be inclined to challenge the Notice of Assignment that was sent with their original letter as this came from them and not Egg, as far as I can tell.

 

Also, when I checked my credit file recently, it states that the Egg assigned the debt in December and not November as Apex have stated. Not a major issue, I agree, but it still casts doubt upon the authenticity of the document that Apex supplied.

 

I would also query what the second agreement is supposed to be that has Citi's address on it, as it clearly is not a document that you signed. I think it's misleading insofar as, I imagine that they will say it's a copy of the current terms and conditions whereas, the way that it is laid out, it appears to be a credit agreement containing all of the prescribed terms!!

 

Hope this helps. DCA's are programmed to bully people and, as you know, you must always stand up to bullies!!

 

PS...also check out SH714's thread here...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/249895-egg-apex-confusion.html#post2801782

 

She is going to SAR Egg which is also an option to check out when the agreement was sold etc.

[flubber02]

Thanks WelshMam. I will do a letter at home tonight. I am not particularly bothered by this lot. At the end of the day, Egg were receiving a monthly payment from me, even if it was a small amount. Because of the way this has been handled, I will resist paying Apex a penny as long as I can.

At least I know I am not the only one they are chasing. Will keep you all posted on progress on here.