Urgently need to know the difference between a CPR18, CPR 31.14 and CPR31.16

[means2anend]

Stone-Broke

click on link below and just scroll down to costs

http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/menus/rules.htm

 

Look specifically to Part 27 (Rule 27:14)http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part27.htm#IDAOBZIC

 

and from Part 43 to Part 48

 

rgds

m2ae

Edited March 22, 2011 by means2anend

[stone-broke]

Thank you m2ae........much appreciated. Will go and check them out now!

[stone-broke]

Just opened a letter for COSTS from the solicitors........Nice sum of £3170.

 

Has anyone a link that will show me how to cost to date......ie. missing work to attend hearing etc??????

 

Need this like.........NOW!!!!!

 

SB

[ramjet]

Bloody hell £3170 for what ?,costs are fixed for this sort of stuff and maximums are allowed and this is very excessive to put it mildly.Every time i was in court they would always ask for a lot more and the judge would only allow a amount in line with guidelines.For the last attendance they were going to charge £264 for the privalige of getting the charging order !

 

How has that sum been calculated ?

 

Cheers

 

Ramjet

[stone-broke]

Hi Ram.........hope all is well with you and yours

 

I have a breakdown of the costs in a letter ranging from either £8.50 to £10.40 per letter. Hours spent on prep and perusal of file calculated in hours which range in cost from either £85 per hr; £104 per hr or £140 per hr. This depends on who has done the work! There are also disbursement fees which includes the summary judgement application fee along with other fees, such as counsel's fees. Then VAT is added! The total is an estimate of costs and states they do not exceed the costs which the claimant is Liable to pay in respect of the work which this estimates covers. (Whatever that means!!)

 

Anyway, went to court again yesterday and once again it was adjourned. I had found the default notices only last week. They were in a pile of papers filed in a different file, which had been with the CAB papers. So, I had to do another witness statement as the DN's were both faulty as in the dates were out by a day if first class post was used. In response the other side brought up a case to use as an authority at the hearing. Case being American Express v Brandon. I had not heard of this case before.....neither had the judge. I got a ticking off for getting a witness statement re the faulty DN's to both the court last week and the claimants reps. Infact, judge was so miffed, she gave me the costs for the day at court!! However, as the other side had produced the authority of the Brandon case actually in court, nothing said!! Oh except, judge didn't have time to read the case so would adjourn. The other side could go away and do a WS re the DN's but I cannot do a WS in response to what they say as 'otherwise it will just go on and on'. Puts me at a disadvantage wouldn't you say? I can deliver a WS a week b4 the case, be reprimanded and told I would have to pay costs for the day, but the claimants can produce a document on the day and get a pat on the back and then get the hearing adjourned and even go ahead and write another ws in response to my faulty DN notice!!!! There's justice for you eh! Infact, they did the same thing last time and so the case was adjourned til Monday.

 

Well I have been doing some research on the Brandon Case. It was to do with a credit card and faulty DN. Initially American Express obtained a summary judgement against Brandon, who then appeals. HHJ Roderick Denyer QC found that while the DN is technically non-compliant, it would still be valid as long as the debtor suffers no prejudice.

Brandon appealed to The Court of Appeal and the appeal hearing was listed for the December; then February; then March and now it is due to be heard in May! Not sure why it gets put off, but the appeal has not been heard yet, so I guess it's fingers crossed that Brandon wins his appeal. However, if my next hearing is heard before the Brandon appeal, then I guess it will be pointless for the other side to use this case as an authority as the outcome will not be known!

 

I have loads of research to do again as I now have to get any authority I am using and get it to court seven days before the next hearing. I have a better idea of how to tackle the actual hearing now as so far it has all been a big learing curve and I've sussed how the barrister I am up against works. Hopefully I will get some help from here. I will need it! Would have liked the outcome to have been known yesterday, but it wasn't meant to be!!

[ramjet]

2am,can not sleep ? child or worry.

 

Its a joke that a case can be used as a authority when the outcome is not finalised.

Although not meant to show any favour but the whole court system just favours the legal people,the people who know what to say and how to say it.The average Mr & Mrs Public can quite easily fall but you seem to be getting to know the in and outs quite well.

You need to find some cases which you can quote and hopefully the judge will be a little bit more up to speed with whats going on,I'll have a look.

Have you been harassed at all ,constant phonecalls.

Good news about the costs.

[means2anend]

IF there is a definite date for that appeal...I dont know if you can put a stay on your case pending the outcome of that as it is of HIGHER AUTHORITY...maybe someone can confirm this...at least then the decision may be known and it could save you unecessary trouble in that if Brandon successfully appeals this would have the effect of deterring your adversaries once and for all...It appears as the Brandon Appeal has a direct relevance on your point at issue...THE FAULTY DN.

[nicklea]

stone broke,

 

You will want to make use of Harrison v Link Financial which pt2537 was involved with. This is a more recent High Court case where it was held that a defective DN means that they can't bring a court claim:-

 

The notice of enforcement

 

[75] The notice of enforcement was a statutory pre-condition of enforcement. It was a bad notice and enforcement cannot be attempted in dependence upon it. However, bad notices can often be remedied by the service of good notices and I see no reason why that should not be so in respect of credit agreements.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Mercantile/2011/B3.html

[stone-broke]

IF there is a definite date for that appeal...I dont know if you can put a stay on your case pending the outcome of that as it is of HIGHER AUTHORITY...maybe someone can confirm this...at least then the decision may be known and it could save you unecessary trouble in that if Brandon successfully appeals this would have the effect of deterring your adversaries once and for all...It appears as the Brandon Appeal has a direct relevance on your point at issue...THE FAULTY DN.

 

Hi and thank you for your comments. I'm unsure if there is a definite date for the appeal hearing. I was up until the early hours reading all I could find on it! For some reason, the hearing has been adjourned more than enough times and I now think it is set to be in May. My case to date, is for the stay to be removed (application of such was made by the claimant) and for judgement to be made to dismiss my defence (they say I have no prospect of successfully winning). It only got to the stage where my embarassed defence was submitted in response to their POC and the other side didn't produce all the documents I requested. Therefore the CCBC put a stay on the case. the Claimant is trying to have the stay removed, so I don't think the court could put another stay on the case at this time. However, by the time I go back to court, Brandon's appeal might have been heard.....but at the rate they are adjourning his appeal hearings, that could be the 12th of never!! :o)

[stone-broke]

2am,can not sleep ? child or worry.

 

Its a joke that a case can be used as a authority when the outcome is not finalised.

Although not meant to show any favour but the whole court system just favours the legal people,the people who know what to say and how to say it.The average Mr & Mrs Public can quite easily fall but you seem to be getting to know the in and outs quite well.

You need to find some cases which you can quote and hopefully the judge will be a little bit more up to speed with whats going on,I'll have a look.

Have you been harassed at all ,constant phonecalls.

Good news about the costs.

 

Hi Ram..........not child or worry......eager to read and read!!!! To be honest, I had a friend visit me until late and I didn't want to go to bed until I had done some more reading re Brandon!!

Yes, I do need some more cases to quote; the more recent the better. Something that bothers me though is the judge said I cannot do another WS, so how can I just add new cases as I will have not quoted them in my other two WS's????? Oh.......btw, the claimant's barrister is allowed to do it...........but I am just the LiP, so not allowed! Any suggestions????????? :o)

[stone-broke]

stone broke,

 

You will want to make use of Harrison v Link Financial which pt2537 was involved with. This is a more recent High Court case where it was held that a defective DN means that they can't bring a court claim:-

 

The notice of enforcement

 

[75] The notice of enforcement was a statutory pre-condition of enforcement. It was a bad notice and enforcement cannot be attempted in dependence upon it. However, bad notices can often be remedied by the service of good notices and I see no reason why that should not be so in respect of credit agreements.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Mercantile/2011/B3.html

 

Thank you nicklea for your input here. I am off now to read what you have suggested re Harrison v Link Financial. I have had a quick read of the notice of enforcement, but need to read again as it is difficult to take in and make sense of at the mo! My problem is how I can suddenly bring in any new cases to use at my hearing as they have not been mentioned previously in the two WS's I have submitted to the court and I am not allowed to add any more at this stagte. Any suggestions???????

[bustthematrix]

stone broke,

You will want to make use of Harrison v Link Financial which pt2537 was involved with. This is a more recent High Court case where it was held that a defective DN means that they can't bring a court claim:-

The notice of enforcement

[75] The notice of enforcement was a statutory pre-condition of enforcement. It was a bad notice and enforcement cannot be attempted in dependence upon it. However, bad notices can often be remedied by the service of good notices and I see no reason why that should not be so in respect of credit agreements.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Mercantile/2011/B3.html

Hmnn, interesting post Nicklea. At first reading, the judges comments seem to suggest that a bad or 'defective' DN can be remedied by the service of a 'good' or non defective DN.

 

After which presumably, lender can then bring enforcement action?

 

I think there are not a few problems with that though. The main one being that of can the DN be remedied AFTER termination of the agreement? Or the reliance upon the bad DN by the debtor which causes them to change their behaviour in some way? How can a good DN ever be correctly served again after the original agreement, as initially specified, has ended?

 

I'll try and read this case much more thoroughly as it appears important to the issues at hand. One thing to be mindful of is the fact the lender was defendant in this case, though, it appears, on the basis of a counterclaim by the Claimant, to threats or actual legal action from the Lender?

 

Would really help if anyone with more detailed knowledge of this Harrison vs Link case please comment - thanks.

[bustthematrix]

Thank you nicklea for your input here. I am off now to read what you have suggested re Harrison v Link Financial. I have had a quick read of the notice of enforcement, but need to read again as it is difficult to take in and make sense of at the mo! My problem is how I can suddenly bring in any new cases to use at my hearing as they have not been mentioned previously in the two WS's I have submitted to the court and I am not allowed to add any more at this stagte. Any suggestions???????

SB, cases regularly get stayed in lower courts pending the outcome of a case in a higher court which has direct impact. Bank charges claims were a classic illustration of that. Also, as decisions come out in relevant cases, lawyers and sometimes judges even, seem to have no problem pulling in precedent and persuasive authority from newer relevant rulings (just look how they all jumped on the McGuffick, Carey etc bandwagons...). I'm sure you can do it as well, just don't know how. Suppose you can pretend to be hard of hearing as well (lenders and their reps often do) and just go ahead and file a further WS in view of new supportive rulings that have come to light? I doubt when the judge commented you can't file another WS that it was written down?

 

This is NOT an area of particular experience for me so hopefully those in the know will soon comment further

 

hth.

Edited March 30, 2011 by bustthematrix

[stone-broke]

SB, cases regularly get stayed in lower courts pending the outcome of a case in a higher court which has direct impact. Bank charges claims were a classic illustration of that. Also, as decisions come out in relevant cases, lawyers and sometimes judges seem to have no problem pulling in precedent and persuasive authority from the new rulings (just look at how they all jumped on the McGuffick, Carey etc bandwagon...). I'm sure you can do it, just don't know how. You can pretend to ne hard of hearing (as lenders and their reps often do) and just go ahead and file a further WS in view of new supportive rulings that have come to light? - Not my area of particular experience so hopefully those in the know will soon comment further

hth.

 

Lol.........hard of hearing ! I did have to ask a few times for the judge to repeat what she said. But she made it quite clear I could not respond with another ws to the new authority the barrister dropped on us on the day. Seems most unjust to me but hey, it is what it is! Thank you for the suggestion though btm :o)

Hopefully, someone might have a solution.........any starters for ten??????

[bustthematrix]

Hi SB

Just not sure it's that cut and dried - that the judge can just say that without making an order about it - maybe you were just being taken advantage of? Your judge is a lady right? Would she have said that had you had legal rep? I don't know but I doubt it, just doesn't seem right. I know Judges seem to be able to use more discretion for Small Claims hearings than in the Fast or Multi-Track.

 

We'll see.

[stone-broke]

Hi SB

Just not sure it's that cut and dried - that the judge can just say that without making an order about it - maybe you were just being taken advantage of? Your judge is a lady right? Would she have said that had you had legal rep? I don't know but I doubt it, just doesn't seem right. I know Judges seem to be able to use more discretion for Small Claims hearings than in the Fast or Multi-Track.

 

We'll see.

 

Hi BTM..........I felt that the judge had no compassion for my position as a LiP and was clearly in favour of the barrister.....unlike the first judge we had in the first hearing. I honestly felt disadvantaged by the fact the barrister (on two ocassions) has brought new documentation into court on the day and nothing has been said. Had it been me, I gather she (yes it was a 'she') would have not allowed it. Infact.......I was reprimanded for submitting a WS re the DN six days before the hearing and my punishment was to be given the costs for that hearing. Am I wrong in feeling like the under dog in this case?

[bustthematrix]

Absolutely not. Be aware that judges do come from the ranks of the legal profession so it is only 'natural' (though not acceptable) that they look after each other.

 

I really hope someone who knows the ins and outs of how to 'manage judges' and get things put on record etc will come along and comment on what some of your options are? You may perhaps be able to request the original friendly judge back or get something in writing as to why the judge has twice permitted this 'on the day production' of new submissions, without prior notice to you, and yet not penalised the other party yet dealing that much harsher with you, especially with you being a LIP!?

 

Lenders have been known to request changes to the sitting judge if they felt s/he was not doing a decent job (which usually means they were actually upholding the law!).

 

Anyway....

Edited March 31, 2011 by bustthematrix
Readability :P)

[stone-broke]

Aww thank you BTM.......at least I have your support

[stone-broke]

Hmm The act says that a default notice is required prior to termination, then it states what must be in a default notice...

So if the default notice isnt a default notice due to being inaccurate or invalid by days to rectify then they are unable to terminate.

 

Simplistic but thats how I see it.

 

S.

 

 

Hi Shadow.............I agree with what you say above, but in addition, if they then start legal proceedings, doesn't that mean they have terminated the agreement? That is the what I have been led to believe. :o)

SB

[the_shadow]

Hi Shadow.............I agree with what you say above, but in addition, if they then start legal proceedings, doesn't that mean they have terminated the agreement? That is the what I have been led to believe. :o)

SB

 

I Think and I've put emphasis on think as I've no way of knowing so its my own opinion.... that a judge having heard that a default was issued but incorrect would allow a claimant to discontinue and issue a default and terminate properly and then proceed back to court.... however I personally think things are much more complex when they take you to court after not issuing a default at all.

 

S.

[stone-broke]

Great debate going on here and differences of opinion! Perhaps I need to start a new thread??? However, I am still reading other links on the site, gathering some information as there doesn't seem to be any help or definite advice/knowledge to be had within this debate!! I am thinking it might be time to seek legal advice? :0(

[Guest]

Great debate going on here and differences of opinion! Perhaps I need to start a new thread??? maybe a good idea! it seems that certain threads tend to digress a bit! and then, due to the 'input' (ie getting 'personal' for eg) of one or two posters, the thread eventually gets 'shut down' and disappears! However, I am still reading other links on the site, gathering some information as there doesn't seem to be any help or definite advice/knowledge to be had within this debate!! I am thinking it might be time to seek legal advice? :0( if you can afford it (or can get legal aid or cfa), go for it. let caggers know what they say!

 

imo

Edited April 9, 2011 by Ford
typo

[stone-broke]

Hey guys time out. I dont mean to pee on anyones bonfire but Stone broke needs some advise here about his/her situation, all these arguments should be on a seperate thread called, I dunno, how about "lets argue with each other and not high jack threads" thread, or something like that

 

Thank you Bazaar.........I'm so happy you spoke up! It does seem that the thread has been high-jacked. It also seems some caggers enjoy having a negative attitude and try to come across as knowlegeable (although it reads as garbage/poor English). I shall be polite and not mention any individual; although I am sure they and others know who I mean! However, it has given me an insight as to who is who and what/who they represent. Diverting my questions/queries to suit their own purpose has slightly hindered my progress and it is time they stepped out and started a thread of their own.

Edited April 11, 2011 by stone-broke

[stone-broke]

OK, this is all well and good, and very useful to be aware of these developments.

 

But where did the judge say he would have found in the Defendant's favour and on what basis??? What, in his learned opinion should the Defendant have pleaded that might have been more favourably decided? Surely part of the value of these initial losses is to help identify the arguments that don't work so that those coming behind don't repeat them?

 

Well said BTM............well said

[stone-broke]

SB, cases regularly get stayed in lower courts pending the outcome of a case in a higher court which has direct impact. Bank charges claims were a classic illustration of that. Also, as decisions come out in relevant cases, lawyers and sometimes judges even, seem to have no problem pulling in precedent and persuasive authority from newer relevant rulings (just look how they all jumped on the McGuffick, Carey etc bandwagons...). I'm sure you can do it as well, just don't know how. Suppose you can pretend to be hard of hearing as well (lenders and their reps often do) and just go ahead and file a further WS in view of new supportive rulings that have come to light? I doubt when the judge commented you can't file another WS that it was written down?

 

This is NOT an area of particular experience for me so hopefully those in the know will soon comment further

 

hth.

 

Thought it might be of interest to actually quote where the thread was up to BEFORE the high-jack took place!!! BTM, thank you so much for your help to date