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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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A cack Judge is a cack Judge. No-one can really foresee what will happen inside a courtroom until the day, which means that you take your chances and if it doesn't go the way it should (according to the law)... you have the option to Appeal that decision.

 

 

As I'm not used to courtrooms (yet!), can I ask, are you always entitled to an appeal or can they turn it down?

 

BF

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As I'm not used to courtrooms (yet!), can I ask, are you always entitled to an appeal or can they turn it down?

 

BF

 

My understanding is that everyone's entitled to lodge an Appeal, but for a an Appeal to be successful, it must be based upon a point of law that was mis-interpreted/overlooked at the first hearing.

 

I've not been in court either.. ;).... not in this life anyway.

 

:)

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Hi PriorityOne and BF,

 

Agreed it is always a lottery before a judge. It is only my opinion but I do feel that it is now infinitely more difficult for a Litigant in Person. That is not necessarily due to McGuffick, Manchester et al. It is more likely to be due to the financial institutions getting more wised up to the fact that we are not all complete bozos. That is the way they see us all, unworthy proles. We must get wised up. In a casino it is a mathematical fact that you only have to move the odds a very small fraction of one percent in your favour to clean up, hence the disquiet about gamblers who can card count in their heads, (not me I'm sorry to say). Therefore does it not follow that we should look at the maths, defend the cases they actually dare to bring, put them to strict proof on every point. After all you do not have to prove anything as a defendent, the onus shifts to the lender to rpove his case. Probability may come into it and outside the judge lottery which none of us can predict, your preparation is the key. My favoured option in the final analysis NOW would be to seek professional help even if the legwork was done as a DIY exercise.

 

Sorry to have gone on

regards

oilyrag.

 

 

Good advice, and something I will take on board when my day in court comes.

Thanks

 

BF

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My favoured option in the final analysis NOW would be to seek professional help even if the legwork was done as a DIY exercise.

 

 

I don't think this is necessary at all. Also, solicitors are not always competent just because they're called solicitors.... I have my own experiences of that one :rolleyes:

 

My personal view is that you have absolutely nothing to lose by defending. If you don't defend, then it leads to a CCJ by default... but if you do defend, then you have a good chance of walking away as the winner.

 

Let none of us forget that owing money is not a crime... ;)

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I don't think this is necessary at all. Also, solicitors are not always competent just because they're called solicitors.... I have my own experiences of that one :rolleyes:

 

My personal view is that you have absolutely nothing to lose by defending. If you don't defend, then it leads to a CCJ by default... but if you do defend, then you have a good chance of walking away as the winner.

 

Let none of us forget that owing money is not a crime... ;)

 

No its not a crime, but its not the CCJ that so much worries me. I'd be happy to pay back at a rate I could afford if it went against me, but what keeps me awake at night are the charging orders and the chance that I could put my wife and I out on the street.

 

BF

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No its not a crime, but its not the CCJ that so much worries me. I'd be happy to pay back at a rate I could afford if it went against me, but what keeps me awake at night are the charging orders and the chance that I could put my wife and I out on the street.

 

BF

 

That's not quite how it works. A creditor/DCA can only apply for a charging order once they've first obtained a CCJ. Then... they can only enforce the CO if you fail to keep up repayments on the CCJ.

 

So it's not quite as bad as creditors/DCAs try and paint it.... ;)

Edited by PriorityOne
typo
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I think that it may not yet be over, as I understand that the deadline for appeal of the judgement on a point of law has passed hence the imminent release of oFT guidance. However this does not preclude I am told the very real possibility of CareyvHSBC going to full trial (true facts not asssumed facts) in the near future. Baggio has more information I would think.

 

 

Please also remember that there's a difference between launching an Appeal as Claimant (see above) and lodging an Appeal as Defendant (such as Humbleman)....

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New legislation (Oct 2008) provides that a debtor may make an application for a time order after being served with an arrears notice.

 

Anyone struggling should get in there first.

 

I'm assuming you're talking about secured debt Paul....

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Hi

So What has changed due to the hearing.

Well in regards to section78 requests really very little.

Section 78 requests where never considered as a method of providing escape from enforcement at least not by serious professional lawyers,

It was designed as a means of enabling the creditor to get information that is what it was and that is what it is.

The problem arose when the people who wrote the copy regulations defined the meaning of “true copy”

They made it sound like the document to be supplied had to be the same as the original ,this was not the intention in the act.

As Francis Benniun said the people who wrote the S.I did not really understand the act, I think he was absolutely spot on.

In doing this they created a massive loophole and that was that people could claim that what they had received was not a true copy and avoid having to pay.

This of course never worked, when it was just a small number of cases creditors would let it go, write off the debt rather than waste time in court, and anyway it is never 100 percent sure which way things will go in court so why risk confronting the argument, far more sensible from their viewpoint to just write a few debts off.

But then the claims companies stepped in and the numbers of defaulters turned from hundreds to thousands. So then they had to establish exactly what the rules are or really what they always where.

A section 78 request can be a very basic document it just has to contain the conditions at the time the card was taken. Since schedule six is very vague anyway about what actual figures the agreement must contain on credit card agreements this is not very difficult to do reproduce.

The only actual figure they have to quote is the interest rate which will be apparent from the customers first statement.

The repayment intervals are standard.

The credit limit can be just a description of how the term will be derived

Really a set of t and cs will probably do as long as they sere current to the time of the execution.

This all that is required of a section 63 copy and it is all that is required of a section78 one as well.

This is not what it says in the regulations but this is the what I believe was intended by the legislation and this is the situation we have now.

The stuff about having copies of varied agreements just as it says in the act nothing new there.

One of the few good things about the judgement is the reassertion that the substance of the agreement has to be correct, this is not as I said earlier much use to us in a section 78 or credit card context, but it is in a section77 or fixed loan ,because it means the total credit and repayments have to be as quoted on the original agreement as well as all the other terms like the TCC and the APR.

These have particular significance on a fixed sum agreement because unlike a credit card they cannot be assigned after the execution they have to be correct and identifiable on the agreement.

This means that if for instance the creditor has fiddled the Total Credit on the original by adding a fee then that will be apparent on the copy, no matter what form it is in. All it will take is one look at the figures and a knowledge of the rules applying to the total charge for credit regulations.

This is really the only proven method of proving the unenforceability of an agreement under section127(3) .

It always has been.

Although some claims companies and solicitors would have you believe different.

The worrying thing about the verdict is the suggestion that the creditor does not need a copy of the original in order to prove compliance of section 61.

I hope that this is hotly contested, I think it will be the act says that the agreement should be reduced to writing.

I am sure that the only way to show this is to produce a document. I know that the balance of probability argument can be used to say what may have been on the document, but I do not believe it can be used to presume that a document probably would have existed, No for that I think the court would need proof. But time will tell.

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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No.

And who says there is no "Ying and Yang" in the world.

 

One very long post followed by a "one word" post. :D:D

If I have helped you or made you laugh by some witty remark and brightened your day................ the scales to click are over to your left hand side. :D:D

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New legislation (Oct 2008 provides that a debtor may make an application for a time order after being served with an arrears notice.

 

Anyone struggling should get in there first.

 

Quite Right PW!:

 

 

 

From October 2008, the lender must send you an arrears notice if you have missed two payments on your agreement. This notice must be sent to you within 14 days. It should tell you how much you owe under the agreement, how much the arrears are and if any interest or charges are being added.

 

New rules say that you can apply for a time order after you have received an arrears notice. You must write to your lender and give them 14 days notice that you are going to apply for a time order. You must include in the letter details of the offer of payment you are going to make in your application.

 

 

AC

 

p.s. I suggest that it may be of benefit, if some members look up:

post contractual statements etc under the CCA 2006 (implemented 1st October 2008 ) other matters (implemented 31st October 2008

Edited by angry cat
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Unfair relationships - The Office of Fair Trading

 

Time orders

Section 129 of the 1974 Act provides that a court can make a time order, giving the consumer more time to repay a debt under a regulated consumer credit or consumer hire agreement, if the court considers it 'just' to do so. In addition, section 136 provides that an agreement may be amended as a consequence of a time order - for example, by reducing the rate of interest or extending the term of the agreement.

 

The consumer can apply for a time order following receipt of a default notice, or a notice of enforcement action under the Act. The court can also make a time order as part of proceedings brought by the lender for enforcement of the agreement or to recover possession of goods or land (for example, mortgage repossession).

 

The 2006 Act will also enable the consumer to apply for a time order following receipt of an arrears notice (from 1 October 2008), provided that he first gives notice to the lender and submits an alternative payment proposal, and at least 14 days elapse before an application is made to the court.

 

A guide to time orders is available on the National Debtline website.

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A cack Judge is a cack Judge. No-one can really foresee what will happen inside a courtroom until the day, which means that you take your chances and if it doesn't go the way it should (according to the law)... you have the option to Appeal that decision.

 

In Humblebums case (havent yet seen the other one) it is clear that whilst he himself made at least one serious error- that even had that case been handled for him by a lawyer he would have lost due to the overwhelming bias of the judge

 

many other cases are lost i suspect not solely down to the judge lottery but by LIP's not having sufficient knowledge or understanding of what they are doing

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I don't think this is necessary at all. Also, solicitors are not always competent just because they're called solicitors.... I have my own experiences of that one :rolleyes:

 

My personal view is that you have absolutely nothing to lose by defending. If you don't defend, then it leads to a CCJ by default... but if you do defend, then you have a good chance of walking away as the winner.

 

Let none of us forget that owing money is not a crime... ;)

 

not only are solicitors not always competent in the area of the law especially, but its "just another case" to them and they will not fight tooth and nail or have the same passion or understanding of the arguments as you will

 

some cases do NEED professional help- most dont

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I believe that you are mocking the post made by: JonChris!?

 

AC

 

In addition to JCs post. I suggest peeps read pages 194-198 of the banking crisis memo.

 

PW

Edited by paulwlton

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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In addition to JCs post. I suggest peeps read pages 194-198 of the banking crisis memo.

 

PW

 

Hey Paul,

 

Have you got a link to that memo?

I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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In addition to JCs post. I suggest peeps read pages 194-198 of the banking crisis memo.

 

PW

 

Hi paul...

 

do you have a link ?

 

dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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