Unfair fine, unsuccessfully appealed, unwilling to pay

[oligomer]

Hi all, basically see letter below to Passenger Focus for more details but here is my situation in brief, To summarize, went to festival in Winchester with friends, got wallet robbed at festival and got police report, on way back sister bought me ticket because had no wallet, she kept the ticket, at Waterloo progressed through the barriers with the ticket, I had no Oyster card as wallet stolen so therefore went to top up, was stopped by revenue officer and fined, no phone battery and officers would not let me go to barriers to fetch my sister so no way of getting hold of ticket. Got ticket off my sister later, appealed and sent ticket to IRCAS and took photos of it, appeal failed (see below) I now owe over 100 pounds I think and am unwilling to pay. Can you advise me on any steps I can take? Does IRCAS have direct telephone line?

 

Regards

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I have, over the course of the past few months, been subject to a drawn out affair of appeals and re-appeals with South West Trains over a ticket for a journey on the 20th July 2009 from Winchester to London Waterloo. The details are hazy now due to the length of time that has passed, but the core details of my situation are still present.

 

I attach one of my old draft letters (see below first) in appeal to IRCAS (in order to explain my situation) and a photo of the ticket. I recognize that the letter is somewhat long and ambiguous, however the core suggestions are easily identifiable:

 

1) I had a ticket - I didn't have it because my sister bought it for me on the train as I had just been subject to a robbery at a festival (police report no: 44090317172)

 

2) I have evidence of this ticket

 

3) I was subject to rudeness and accusations and blackmail by SWT staff

 

4) At no stage, at the issuing of the penalty fare or at any stage in the appeals procedure have SWT shown any degree of humanity, common sense, or willingness to show reason in respect of my situation.

 

5) IRCAS rejected my appeal: quoting:

 

'Tickets or other evidence produced at a later date can not be considered as a ticket must be shown to the member of staff when requested at the time of travel.'

 

I now am facing court as a result of this situation. I would like to emphasize that I had a ticket, I sent it to IRCAS and have photographic evidence of the ticket attached. It would be immensely helpful if you could give me a realistic idea of any actions that can be taken or of my chances in court. Are the conditions stated above enforceable through law?

 

Any help you could give me would be much appreciated.

 

Regards

[Old-CodJA]

Yesterday I posted an answer to someone regarding a query relating to a very similar case and I regret that I cannot give you much hope of success if the matter proceeds to issue of a Summons.

 

I will repeat the relevant parts here:

 

'My friend (sister) has my ticket' or, 'My friend is going to meet me to pay the fare at the other end' are two of the most common excuses that Inspectors hear every day when encountering travellers without a ticket.

 

It is worth a look at the Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) for guidance here:

 

Section 5 (1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in the case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine.

 

You were in breach of the Act, because you failed to show a valid ticket and did fail to pay the fare, but you complied with the inspectors' legitimate request for your name and address

 

Section 5 (3) (a) If any person travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine.

 

Again, you may be considered to be in breach of the Act here.

 

Any person who has no valid ticket on his person showing that the fare is paid or means to pay if facilities were not availabe to get one before travelling has no right to board any train. I understand the suggestion that your sister had or would pay, but there was no evidence of this for the REO to take into consideration. When questioned you could not show a ticket and could not pay the fare due.

 

It has been ruled that a person cannot give what he doesn't have available to give and commits the offence by default. You had no ticket and no means to pay and could show no tangible evidence that your fare had been paid.

 

A ticket that is not present at the time of the ticket check cannot be accepted as valid for any journey for a variety of reasons.

 

Not least of these is the fact that any ticket produced later could be a ticket that had been used by someone else. For that reason alone it can be rejected (although in the case of a season ticket left at home a different view may prevail where it is shown to be valid and the photocard is held.)

 

In this case there was no evidence before the inspector that any fare had been paid.

 

If SW Trains decide to charge you with the Byelaw offence as is likely, this is a strict liability matter. Your intention is not relevant.

 

National Railways Byelaw 18.1 makes it a strict liability offence to fail to show a valid rail ticket on demand when pre-purchase facilities were available.

 

Facilities were available for you to obtain a ticket at Waterloo - the fact that you did not have the means to do so was not the rail company's fault and neither are they liable to convey you without pre-payment

 

You were not given authority to travel without ticket by an authorised person before travelling and no member of the public, nor police or, rail staff have any authority to vary or, amend the National Conditions of Carriage or, the National Railway Byelaws.

 

If a Penalty Fare Notice remains unpaid and not successfully appealed at the end of the period allowed, the administrative option may be cancelled and action may be commenced in respect of either the Byelaw offence or an allegation of 'intent to avoid a fare' according to circumstance.

 

In short, yes, there is an offence that can be laid before a Court and I suggest that your chances of acquittal are slim.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[SRPO]

There is one alternative, you can ask for a judicial review of the decision to dismiss your appeal for the original penalty fare, however that will cost about £15k.

[RPI]

I may have missed something here, but you say you had passed through the barriers at Waterloo WITH your ticket, so why were you stopped?

[kwaks]

I may have missed something here, but you say you had passed through the barriers at Waterloo WITH your ticket, so why were you stopped?

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

You only need to have a ticket when travelling, once past the barrier no one should be requesting a ticket.

[Old-CodJA]

You only need to have a ticket when travelling, once past the barrier no one should be requesting a ticket.

 

Absolute rubbish!!!

 

This is exactly the sort of bad advice that leads people into trouble

 

You are required to hold a valid ticket at all times when on the railway and to SHOW IT ON DEMAND by any member of rail staff.

[kwaks]

Absolute rubbish!!!

 

This is exactly the sort of bad advice that leads people into trouble

 

You are required to hold a valid ticket at all times when on the railway and to SHOW IT ON DEMAND by any member of rail staff.

 

 

After the barrier? In the station concourse?

 

To pass the barrier he must have shown his ticket to staff or passed it through a machine. You cannot be obligated to show a ticket once on the concourse which has public access, how many bins had he passed? Whats to stop him, like thousands of others chucking the USED ticket in the first bin?

 

Once his jorney is complete, ie he has left the train,platform and passed the barrier into the publicly accessed area of the station the contract he has with the train company is complete. Therefor he is no longer a passenger, thus no longer subject to section 5(1) of the act.

[kwaks]

There you go, page 5 of the link. Penalty fares only when there are warning notices, travelling on the train or in areas where a ticket is required. You do not need a ticket to be on the station concourse on the public access side of a barrier.

 

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

[Old-CodJA]

On lines where Penalty Fares operate, such as at Waterloo (and like many other stations nationwide) you are required to show a valid ticket whenever you are in 'the controlled ticket area'.

 

That means on any train or on any part of the railway, including station platforms and at any point on a concourse where there is a sign displayed relating to Penalty Fares that states you must be in possession of a ticket.

 

The OP referred to going through the barrier at Waterloo without a ticket. He / she says 'I didn't have it' - 'I got the ticket off my sister later' He/she also say that 'the ticket was bought on the train'.

 

A ticket presented at a later date cannot be accepted because it could be someone elses's ticket - it has to be shown at the time of travel to be accepted as valid for any journey.

[Old-CodJA]

The key thing here is that the OP admitted to having made a journey for which he / she could not produce a valid ticket on demand at the time of travel

 

Please note that Penalty Fares are not the only legislation that can be invoked here.

[kwaks]

The OP actually stated he passed through the barriers at Waterloo WITH the ticket. It was after this he was asked to produce it. Therefore, as he was travelling with his sister (she purchased the ticket on the train so was there with him) he COULD produce a valid ticket WHILST he was travelling. By his original post he was asked to produce this ticket after he had completed the journey for which this ticket applied, whilst trying to pay for the next leg of the journey via oyster.

 

Seems to me that in the process of explaining to ticket staff why he did not have his oyster card someone over zealously questioned how he had managed to get back to Waterloo. If this is the case then the railstaff member had no right to expect to see the ticket, as the journey had been completed and quite legitimately the ticket could have been disposed of.

 

The point you seem to be ignoring Old-Codja is that he did produce the ticket on demand at the time of travel. He could not produce a ticket in retrospect AFTER the time of travel, and if this was in a publicly accessible area of the station then he did not need a ticket to be there.

[Old-CodJA]

This is cut and paste from OP:

 

"on way back sister bought me ticket because had no wallet, she kept the ticket, at Waterloo progressed through the barriers with the ticket, I had no Oyster card as wallet stolen so therefore went to top up, was stopped by revenue officer and fined, no phone battery and officers would not let me go to barriers to fetch my sister so no way of getting hold of ticket. Got ticket off my sister later,"

 

I may be wrong, but I read this as OP's fare was paid by sister on journey made by both of them

 

Here is the confusing bit:

 

If OP passed through barrier using a ticket, how did the ticket get back through barrier to sister?

 

If it did not, how did OP not come to have it when on the concourse and when attempting to travel on another journey without ticket or means??

 

If OP knew that a ticket wasn't held for first journey and sister had paid for that one, why did OP not make some arrangements before attempting to make an onward journey (hence reference to Oyster) without a valid ticket or the means to pay??

 

Did sister pass through barrier on a separate ticket and if yes, why would OP need to go back to barrier line to prove ticket was held?

 

I think there is much more to this one than we have learned from limited information given

[kwaks]

Agreed, the OP is pretty ambigious in his description, I read it that he had passed the barrier with the ticket. Looking again it can also be read that she went through with the ticket leaving him behind the barrier (not the smartest thing but....). However if this was the case I would expect the station staff to catch up with her rather than simple fine him, they are human after all and I am sure take no pleasure from fining the innocent.

 

If OP comes back maybe he could clear his situation up a bit

[postggj]

no way am i up on transport law but the signs i see are

 

chiltern railways (example} operate a penalty fare system

 

if you fail to produce a valid ticket on demand for your entire journey a penalty fare is payable

 

 

i think on demand is the key

at the time of the demand, you did not have a ticket

 

all guess work though

[Stigy]

Kwaks, Rail staff can't be expected to wander about on the concourse at London Waterloo looking for somebody that "might" have their Brother's rail ticket. Not only is it not feasable, but the Revenue Protection Staff probably aren't allowed to leave their post, nor should they be expected to. Could the OP not have phoned his sister? Surely the Sister was close enough to her Brother, afterall, they were travelling together, weren't they?

 

I read the original post as, Sister went through the barriers at Waterloo using her ticket, but also had Brother's ticket with her.

[danielr]

Could the OP not have phoned his sister? Surely the Sister was close enough to her Brother, afterall, they were travelling together, weren't they?

 

I read the original post as, Sister went through the barriers at Waterloo using her ticket, but also had Brother's ticket with her.

was stopped by revenue officer and fined, no phone battery and officers would not let me go to barriers to fetch my sister so no way of getting hold of ticket.

 

OP didn't have charge on their phone so it wouldn't work...

[timbo58]

well this is either very unfortunate or very very fishy.

the whole thread title says it for me: the TOC obviously thought it reasonable to prosecute in the first place and THEN an independent adjudicator also found in the TOCs favour.

unwilling to pay? you may well be, but you'll regret not paying if you don't IME.

Best pay up now and carry on the fight if you thinks it's a fair bet, but don't just NOT pay: that'll hurt as the TOC will get a debt agency in.

[Stigy]

OP didn't have charge on their phone so it wouldn't work...

That'll teach me to read before I type...