Link claimform - First National GEHL double glazing loan **WON - WRITTEN OFF BY GE**

[beachcomber60]

PS.

 

Did read about the cancellation bit on your thread, yes it was signed in our home cant remember having received anything - although I can remember seeing on the agreement something about it being sent 'shortly'.

 

Beachy

[littlefatbudha]

im sorry to but in , i have a repo case coming up, i have sent a cpr 18 request is this wrong, will they still have to send the information requested in it, or will i have to send a cpr 31,thankyou.

[MAGDA]

PS.

 

Did read about the cancellation bit on your thread, yes it was signed in our home cant remember having received anything - although I can remember seeing on the agreement something about it being sent 'shortly'.

 

Beachy

 

Hi Beachy, well that's something else you might be able to use, it's up to them to prove the cancellation details were provided, not for you to prove they weren't. That could make the agreement unenforceable, so looks as though all in all you have quite a few things in your favour.

 

Magda

[MAGDA]

im sorry to but in , i have a repo case coming up, i have sent a cpr 18 request is this wrong, will they still have to send the information requested in it, or will i have to send a cpr 31,thankyou.

 

Hi, have you got a thread for people to look at so that they can help a bit more. The cpr 18 is fine, you can only do a cpr 31.14 to request a document that has been mentioned in the claimant's statement of case, such as the POC (particulars of claim) for example. If they have mentioned a document and it's one you need to see, then you can send a cpr 31.14 in addition to the cpr 18 you have already sent.

 

Magda

[beachcomber60]

Bit more info from Link,

 

Copy of default (well I think its a DN???)

 

Also a sheet of A4 showing three sets of 'Commissions' on the account

 

Commissions Due

Advance £****

PPI £***

Additional £***

 

(dont know if that means anything ?)

 

Beachy

[beachcomber60]

Could someone please advise me on these 'Commissions' - is it something else I can fight with.

 

Slowly they're compling with my CPR, although no proof of service of any documents, Deed of Assn., or DN as yet.

 

Beachy

[angry cat]

Has a “secret commission” has been paid by a lender to a broker?

 

 

 

Ordinarily, the introducer or broker will be treated as an agent of the borrower. As such they owe a fiduciary duty to their client including the duty not to make a secret profit.

 

 

 

 

Provided that it is disclosed to the client, there is nothing wrong in principle in an intermediary charging a broker’s fee. However, the commission must be disclosed and a general statement that “a commission may be paid in certain circumstances” is not adequate.

 

 

 

 

The receipt of a secret commission by a broker is a species of fraud and is actionable both against the broker or introducer and the lender who paid the secret commission.

 

 

 

 

In the Court of Appeal case of Hurstanger v Wilson [2007] EWCA Civ 299, Lord Justice Tuckey commented as follows:

 

 

 

 

Obviously if there has been no disclosure the agent will have received a secret commission. This is a blatant breach of fiduciary duty but additionally the payment or receipt of a secret commission is considered to be a form of bribe and is treated in the authorities as a special category of fraud in which it is unnecessary to prove motive, inducement or loss up to the amount of the bribe. The principal has alternative remedies against both the briber and the agent for the money had and received where he can recover the amount of the bribe or for the damages for fraud where he can recover the amount of any actual loss sustained by entering into the transaction in respect of which the bribe was given (Mahesan v Malaya’s Housing Society [1979] AC 374, 383). Furthermore the transaction is voidable at the election of the principal who can rescind it . . . (Panama & South Pacific Telegraph Co v India Rubber, Gutta Percher and Telegraph Co [1875] 9 Ch App 515, 527, 532-3).”

 

 

You may find it an advantage to read about "The Unfair Relationships Test;

Consumer Credit Act 2006; fully implemented 31 October 2008.

[beachcomber60]

Thanks AC, dont know where I'd be without you & Magda guiding me.

 

Dont fully understand the last post so will have to read up abit more.

 

There has been no mention of commissions til I asked (having since it mentioned on the forum), reading what they sent, I am assuming that the commissions were paid by GE to the Glazing company (the A4 sheet is titled 'Pay Off Sheet'.

 

Beachy

[MAGDA]

Hi Beachy, you might find this thread interesting (don'tknow if you have seen it?) Although it concerns a secured loan, the principle is the same.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgages-secured-loans/155866-g-e-money-secret.html

 

regards, Magda

[angry cat]

Beachy, you may find the following of interest also:

 

PPI could be invalid says judge - Times Online

[beachcomber60]

Hi all,

 

Well the supply of documents have 'dried up' & the 28 days has expired.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post Link very kindly supplied the Underwriters signing off sheet which shows that 'secret commissions' were paid.

 

There is nothing in the agreement or T&C's indicating commissons will be paid out, I have had a written response from the glazing company stating that as far as they know no commissions were received by them.

 

On going through pages 'n pages of data from an earlier SAR I found a similier page to what link sent which shows that the glazing company was the 'introducer' and then two entries are tipexed out, holding the page up to the light shows that the glazing company DID receive commissions £x amount for the loan + £x amount for the PPI & £x amount for 'additional' commission.

 

Complaint filed with the FOS for the mis selling of PPI & also added secret commissions to my complaint.

 

As far as the ppi is concerned, its front loaded to the loan & although only covers 5years (IF I was indeed covered - Self Employed) Iam actually paying for it for the duration of the loan - 10 years.

 

It has been suggested that I write to Link & ask for an adjornment until after the FOS has investigated my complaint but if I am read is correct I believe Im in a very strong position to get this thrown out.

 

Any further advice greatly appreciated.

 

Beachy

[beachcomber60]

No follow up to last post

 

But I spoke too soon saying nothing from Link!

 

Received this morning a letter stating that they have provided all documentation to proceed to judgement & that I am not entitled to see the deed of assignment.

 

Another letter enclosed was for us to 'save court time' by signing and returning to them our admittence to the debt & withdrawing our defence to enable them to be granted judgement as we have no claim to defend.

 

They also state that its their intention to go for an immediate charging order to enable them to 'monitor' payments following judgement.

 

Beachy

[MAGDA]

Hi all,

 

Well the supply of documents have 'dried up' & the 28 days has expired.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post Link very kindly supplied the Underwriters signing off sheet which shows that 'secret commissions' were paid.

 

There is nothing in the agreement or T&C's indicating commissons will be paid out, I have had a written response from the glazing company stating that as far as they know no commissions were received by them.

 

On going through pages 'n pages of data from an earlier SAR I found a similier page to what link sent which shows that the glazing company was the 'introducer' and then two entries are tipexed out, holding the page up to the light shows that the glazing company DID receive commissions £x amount for the loan + £x amount for the PPI & £x amount for 'additional' commission.

 

Complaint filed with the FOS for the mis selling of PPI & also added secret commissions to my complaint.

 

As far as the ppi is concerned, its front loaded to the loan & although only covers 5years (IF I was indeed covered - Self Employed) Iam actually paying for it for the duration of the loan - 10 years.

 

It has been suggested that I write to Link & ask for an adjornment until after the FOS has investigated my complaint but if I am read is correct I believe Im in a very strong position to get this thrown out.

 

Any further advice greatly appreciated.

 

Beachy

 

Hi Beachy, I would personally carry on with this, rather than put it on hold pending the FOS outcome. Link are very good at acting as though they have the upper hand, but you'll find at some point they will come to you with their tail between their legs, or if the worst comes to the worst, and it gets as far as a trial (doubtful with Link) then you can let them have it right between the eyes.

 

No follow up to last post

 

But I spoke too soon saying nothing from Link!

 

Received this morning a letter stating that they have provided all documentation to proceed to judgement & that I am not entitled to see the deed of assignment.

 

Another letter enclosed was for us to 'save court time' by signing and returning to them our admittence to the debt & withdrawing our defence to enable them to be granted judgement as we have no claim to defend.

 

They also state that its their intention to go for an immediate charging order to enable them to 'monitor' payments following judgement.

 

Beachy

 

Firstly you are entitled to see the DoA (in it's entirety) you could send the following letter to them and state that you will apply for a court order for disclosure if they do not comply. Have you sent a cpr 31.14 request to see the Deed (assuming they have mentioned the assignment somewhere in their POC or other papers?

 

Suggested letter:-

 

"You have stated that I have no right to see the actual document of assignment and that the Section 136 Law of Property Act 1925 notice is sufficient.

 

I disagree with this and I insist that I am entitled to inspect the alleged assignment to satisfy myself that the assignment is valid.

 

I submit that you have misunderstood the law in this area. The mere fact of giving notice under s136 does not, of itself, create an assignment, there must be an actual document of assignment in existence. All that s136 means is that for an absolute assignment to be valid that notice of it must have been given to the debtor.

 

Further, the operation of s136 does not have any effect on the disclosure requirements under the Civil Procedure Rules. It is the Assignment, not the Section 136 notice, under which you derive title to bring the claim and as such should be disclosed.

 

The overriding objective in CPR 1.1(2) requires the court to, as far as possible, place the parties on equal footing. The fact that you have in your possession a document which is determinative of one of the major issues between us should, in my submission, require disclosure to enable me to form a view as to whether there has been an absolute assignment.

 

It is, with respect, my position that not only do the interests of justice require disclosure but also that you cannot prove your case without producing the alleged assignment to me.

 

I further submit that, in any event, I am entitled as a matter of law to be provided with a copy of the alleged assignment (Van Lynn Developments v Pelias Construction Co Ltd 1968 [3] All ER 824)"

 

 

Secondly, as I'm sure you know, don't sign anything - you have a lot in your favour where you defence is concerned and the secret commission could give you an even stronger case, so stick to your guns.

 

Link have a habit of calling your bluff, but if you don't respond, they will come to you at some point stating that they intend to discontinue, or you may be able to get their claim struck out at some point before the hearing actually happens.

 

Will have a good read through your thread again later just to recap.

 

Magda

[beachcomber60]

Thanks Magda,

 

Unfortunately OH opened the letter this morning and the words charging order over our property sort of jumped out at her.

 

Their claim states that the debt was assigned to them & I requested NoA & DoA, DN and proof of service, they have provided the agreement, T&C's, DN (copy is dodgy) letter stating they have bought the debt - more of a welcome letter then a NoA & statement of account (which contains charges).

 

Think they've got a bl**dy cheek sending a letter 'advising' us we have no defence & to sign the letter admitting it in order to save court time.

 

As I mentioned earlier 'commissions' were paid & GE & the glazing company have tried their best to conseal it, if Link hadn't sent the underwriters sheet I would be none the wiser.

 

GE tipexed it out on our SAR & the Glazing company have stated in writing that 'to the best of their knowledge' no commissions were received.

 

The plot thickens

[MAGDA]

Yes, it seems so. It is horrible when you get letters mentioning charging orders etc, but they need to get a forthwith judgement first!

 

One of the claims Link had against us (four in total) was struck out, they then had it reinstated (claimed not to have received any of the court orders) and we then had an allocation hearing where Link insisted the claim be placed on the fast track - previously they had asked in their AQ for small claims. The claim was just under £6,000 and the judge more or less told us to negotiate with Link as we would face very hefty costs if we lost. We did not negotiate (didn't have any money to negotiate with anyway!) and I am very glad now that we called their bluff. My husband said all along that Link had placed it on the fast track thinking we would back down because we were terrified of the costs implications. In the end, Link were the ones to back down, so just goes to show, they try every trick in the book and psychological ploy to get you to surrender before it goes to court.

 

You stand a very good chance of beating them, so stick with it.

 

Best wishes, Magda

[beachcomber60]

Thanks Magda,

 

Letter duly sent to Link.

 

Had a rather stark letter from the glazing company, I sent a letter last week asking from them to confirm their earlier statement that they were unaware of any commissions paid to them from GE.

 

Their letter simply says 'I have to referred your letter to our solicitors.

 

Any information under County Court Disclosure procedures will only be forwarded when we receive the following

 

Court Ref. No.

Date of Issue

Where order has been served

 

Yours sincerely

 

a double glazing company

 

 

On a seperate issue, charges that GE have added to the account such as *£50 tracing fee, £60 Default Notice, £50 Serving of Default Notice & £130 litigation fee would these be reclaimable as unfair charges?

 

* GE employed Lewis to 'trace us' however they later admitted in writing that they did in fact receive our letter advising of our new address but 'lost it in their filing system'.

 

They claim to have spoken to our son who confirmed our new address, however, on the day/month in question it would have been impossible as our son lives overseas and has been for the past 18 months - sifting thro' the SAR is an entry that they traced us thro' 192.com ( I know there is a big thread relating to this so called online directory).

 

 

Beachy

[MAGDA]

Hi Beachy, well hopefully some info will be forthcoming from the Glazing company once you have confirmed it is subject to court proceedings - don't think there is any harm confirming those details. Be interesting to see if anything materialises from them.

 

You should be able to claim those charges as unfair and the interest on them as well - I know it's all a bit different now because of the recent ruling on bank charges, but as far as I am aware you can still claim, because that won't affect you for a loan - and the charges for tracing weren't justified anyway as you had given them your new address.

 

Keep digging and see what turns up...

 

Magda

Edited December 19, 2009 by MAGDA

[MAGDA]

amended this post Beachy as not relevant to charges in your case (I've got bank charges on the brain!) for a straightforward loan. Having a funny half hour I think:).

 

Magda

Edited December 19, 2009 by MAGDA

[beachcomber60]

Hope everyone had a great Christmas.

 

To bring this one up to date :-

 

Court claim now transferred to our local court & AQ received (not sure how to fill this in, will post up questions in the morning if someone could be kind enough to guide me).

 

Reply from the FOS, on submitting my complaint in writing (initial complaint was by phone as FN/GE weren't regulated) the FOS has taken my complaint onboard and has issued a case reference number because PINNACLE was regulated at the time and the PPI was front loaded into the agreement.

 

The double glazing company will no longer communicate with me unless its through their solicitors, have written to the solicitors but as yet no response.

 

Have also written to Pinnacle Insurance (under CPR) but have not had any response, likewise I have also written to FN/GE (again under CPR) for information concerning these commissions - again no response.

 

Written to Link (as Magda suggested) for a copy of the Deed of Assignment - No Response.

 

Part of Link's disclosure was a computer print out of the underwriters sheet (didnt ask for it ), which shows three sets of commissions paid, 'Additional', 'Loan' & 'PPI' and a Link reference number - surely Link dont get a commission .

 

Going thro' the computer print outs that GE supplied as part of my SAR is a very similiar sheet which shows only two sets of commissions a) Loan b) PPI, this was tipexed out prior to them sending it, only found it as I held it up against the light to see what was under the tipex, there was another sheet with tipex, however this refers to fraud & money laundrying.

 

Hoping this commission business is my golden egg against Link

 

Really greatful for your continued help & support.

 

(PS Reference an earlier post about Link phone calls after court claim issued, phone calls suddenly stopped after that post - surely they arent monitoring the forum )

 

B

[beachcomber60]

As mentioned in the last post here is the AQ that been sent.

 

A) Settlement

Under the Civil Procedures Rules parties should make every effort to settle their case before the hearing. This could be by discussion or negotiation or by a more formal process such as mediation. the court will want to know what steps have been taken.

 

1. Given that the rules require you to try to settle the claim before the hearing, do you want to attempt to settle at this stage?

 

2. If yes do you want a one month stay?

 

3. Would you like the court to arrange a mediation appointment?

 

4. If you answer 'No' to question 1, please state the reasons why you consider it inappropriate to try and settle the claim at this stage.

 

B) Location of trail - No problem it'll be our local court

 

C) Pre-action protocols

You are expected to comply with the relevent pre-action protocol.

Have you done so? Not sure on this one - seem to have hit a brick wall regards Link disclosing documents

If No, why?

 

D) Case management information

What amount of the claim is in dispute? all of it

 

Have you made any application in this claim?

 

If yes, what for?

 

Witnesses Me & OH

 

Do you wish to use expert evidence at the trail or final hearing? (No & I cant find a solicitor locally - all alone with this )

 

Track

Small Claims

Fast Track

Multi Track

 

E) Trail or final hearing

How long do you estimate the trail or final hearing will take?

 

F) Proposed directions

(Think this is the one AC kindly posted earlier in the thread)

 

 

G) Costs

 

H) Fee

Have you attached the fee for filing this allocation questionnaire?

 

I) Other information

Have you attached documents to this questionnaire?

Have you sent these documents to the other party?

 

Do you intend to make any applications in the immediate future?

 

In the space below, set out any other information you consider will help the judge to manage the claim.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Sorry if I appear thick, I feel out of my deepth regarding form filling, and this is my first ever county court 'appearence.

[MAGDA]

Hi Beachy, is this an N150, if so, you might find this helpful:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/191718-advice-please-court-papers-3.html#post2189112

 

Happy New Year, Magda

[beachcomber60]

Hi Magda,

 

Happy New Year to you also.

 

Thanks for the 'input' ( sorry I cant bring my self to say link at the moment ). Yes it is a N150 form.

 

I've been ready various threads most of the day trying to pick up hints on tackling this one.

 

I'm still hoping this secret commissions business is my golden egg especially as the parties concerned are doing their level best to keep it concealed. I suppose I need to thank Link for sending that sheet, had they not done so I would be none the wiser regarding commissions.

 

Looks like I have to fight it alone as I have tried a couple of solicitors locally, both have failed to come back to me, at the moment I only have your good self, AC (on this thread) & Michellej on the secret commissions thread sticking with me to support/advise me - feel pretty depressed at times.

 

'B'

[MAGDA]

Hi Beachy, don't be down - there were times when I felt the same way dealing with Link, it does get on top of you sometimes, but just remember you have a really good chance of beating them! They don't like it when you fight back and more often than not they back down at some point. I remember when one of the Link claims against us was placed on the fast track (Link changed from small claims at the last minute) and the judge more or less told us to come to an agreement with Link as we would be liable for really hefty costs if we lost. That really bothered me at the time, but (with a lot of encouragement from AC) I stuck with it, and as it turned out, Link's claim was struck out because they had no intention of going ahead - they were just trying to intimidate us.

 

You have plenty of ammunition to use against them, so try to stay positive and focus on that.

 

You will beat them on this and hopefully the New Year will be a good one for you.

 

Magda

[beachcomber60]

Happy New Year

 

Doing the AQ & Draft Order for Directions as it has to be filed to court this week.

 

As far as the Draft Order is concerned I have added the following :-

 

Underwriters Sheet showing any commissions paid, the amount & to whom

So far as the AQ is concerned I think I've got to grips with it, two questions before I fill it in

1) Pre-action Protocols - Have I complied with preaction protocol (Yes - I believe I have, asked for documents (as advised) not all provided by Link)

2) Mediation - Should I ask for this or not? (All Link want is Judgement & charging order)

3) Time for Trial or Final Hearing (how longs a piece of string?)

Finally, I am asking for Small claims track as the case is fully based on documentation (really hoping secret commissions is the sting)

As always many thanks

Beachy

[beachcomber60]

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