Suspended pending investigation thats already happened ?

[majik]

I never said i didn't declare my previous employer, just that i didnt use them as a referance, after explaining the issue to my new employer they were happy to use an alternate referance.

 

The evidence that they have not released is the reason for my dismissal so it would be appropiate surely.

 

Im working in the retail business.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

But surely they would have sent you a dismissal letter explaining the reason for your sacking ?

 

You have a very understanding new boss, most bosses would be curious about why you want to use a different reference ?

 

Regards

[majik]

Dismissal letter state's that CEO believes a Witness statement written by another memeber of staff and he opinion is that i have lied.

 

However i have never been shown a copy of this witness statement and was told if it was relevant i would get a copy, i have not had one so can only assume its not relevant.

 

I informed new employer that due to an ongoing grievance against the only person in HR i was not sure what referance i would get, they suggested supplying an alternative referance which i happily did.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Because they have not supplied the witness statement does not mean that it is not relevant it may just mean that it is not appropiate.

 

Even though the ceo has confirmed that nothing happened, doesnt stop the indivduals pursuing a claim against you in the courts, you will probably find that the ceo has not even spoken to the staff concerned.

 

Regards

[majik]

The words used in the appeal meeting were IF I FEEL IT IS RELEVANT I WILL RELEASE IT. It has not been released so therefore it is not relevant in the eyes of the CEO.

 

Can i ask why you are mentioning court again, It will not happen and if it does the CEO will be in breach of his own letter. CCTV cannot be released by anyone but CEO as CEO is Data Controller for the the company in question. CEO has confirmed that nothing happen so therefore no reason to release evidence, Police were present no action was taken.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

The only reason i mention it is, the ceo does not speak for his staff, the letter was written by him and not the staff concerned. and if they lose the ET they will probably raise a private claim against your other half.

 

What they probably meant was if they agree with you on the appeal they will supply you the evidence, but as the decision was upheld they do not have to disclose the evidence to you.

 

Regards

[majik]

That makes no sense, surely it would be the other way around, if they think they are right they will release the evidence to prove it. Whilst they did not upheld my appeal against allegation 4 i couldn't really answer the accusation as i was not present at the time of the allegation and they have not released anything to prove id did anything wrong so can do you defend yourself correctly ?

 

As they have not i can only assume it is not what they claim it to be, there doesnt seem to be any other reason for not releasing it.

 

As i said i have no doubts what so ever about a possible court case against my OH, it will not happen.

 

There is no evidence to support the other staff members claim that my OH was violent or aggressive, that is why the CEO retracted the comments.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

I would advise going over the handwritten notes from the appeal (even if they are illegable) and double checking to make sure what was said, as this will definetly be brought up at ET.

 

You need to make sure that your other half has never been aggresive to the staff as they may raise a case against him over this. has he ever threatned or spoke to the staff at your ex work place at anytime ?

 

The ceo may have retracted his comments, but he cannot retract someone elses ?

 

Did they explain the allegation 4 in detail and tell you what evidence they had ?

 

Regards

[majik]

No all that was mentioned for allegation 4 was that after viewing witness statement from staff member the CEO has Reasonable Belief that i have lied and the witness statement from staff member is correct, As i have already said it was never really discussed as there was nothing to discuss, I have been shown no evidence in relation to this allegation and it is merely my OH witness statement against the staff members.

 

They informed me that there was a witness staement from staff member that is it, no other evidence has ever been mentioned.

 

OH works in security, he was not violent or aggressive and if he was Police would have acted. They did not as no offense took place.

 

Person making the comments is HR who state in staff members opinion i OH was violent and aggressive, Staff member has made no direct comments as such but we believe he asked HR to say what they said.

 

As i have repeadly stated Private Court Action in relation to that matter will not happen.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

I am curious how you can be so sure that private court proceedings will not happen ? (have you had a quiet word in there ear ha ha)

 

It will be interesting to see what is in this staff members statement, was it just 1 staff member ?

 

Regards

[majik]

Yes from what i have been told there is 1 witness statement from a staff member. I dont think there is anything in it and that is why it has not been released.

 

I pretty sure there will not be private court action as for there to be any private court action the CEO would need to release CCTV of events that did not occur and due to that it cannot happen. If the events occured as HR stated the Police would have dealt with it. They did not and confirmed that nothing illegal happened in there eyes, CEO has agreed with the Police.

 

My OH has no intentions of having a private word in anyones ear and IF the staff member decided to attempt to take Private Court Action, my OH would counter sue for libel due to what Staff members has said about him etc.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Sorry if you took that seriously, i was joking (ha ha)

 

What have the staff said about your other half that is so bad you are considering suing them for libel ?

 

If it is that bad you may be able to use it at the ET.

 

Regards

[majik]

It will be used at ET if it goes that far,

 

You have already been informed out what was said earlier on there is no need to continually repeat it. It relates to accusation of violance and aggression that the company were unable to prove when told to put up or shut up, Hence the retraction letter from the CEO.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Im not sure that i can advise you anymore, you seem to be set in your mind as to what they have done wrong and how you are going to proceed.

 

I would advise to just wait and see what happens at the ET, but make sure you are prepared. all the dirty washing is aired at the ET.

 

Things you might not have felt relevant will be dragged up

 

Any previous complaints you have made etc.

 

Regards

[majik]

I have asked for advise on allegation 4 and the advise you have offered is unrelated in a large part to what i needed.

 

Im not set in my mind they have done wrong as such just that they have done wrong by not showing me/providing me with the evidence needed to correctly address alleagtion 4.

 

I am unsure how to proceed in relation to allegation 4 as nothing has been provided to show any wrong doing so how do you defend yourself against an alleagtion that no evidence has been provided for.

 

I understand the risks etc but any Private Court stuff would not involve me or my case in any way shape or form, that would only involve my partner, The issues involing my partner have not been any part of my disciplinary process with the exception of using a pin code, that is all that has ever been mentioned in relation to my dismissal.

[majik]

I feel i now have found the definative proof allegation 4 cannot be used. (I Hope)

 

The first line of the disciplinary minutes states "we are here to discuss the 3 allegation made against you" and after going through the minutes with a fine tooth comb there is no mention of an allegation 4, they do mention an issue invloving a breach of security and confidentialiy but they do not class/mention this as allegation 4.

 

Does anyone feel i have a strong case to disprove allegation 4 on the grounds there is no mention of it in my disciplinary in fact they specifically refer to 3 allegations and no evidence has ever been provided to prove their version of events.

 

I have today recieved confirmation that my case has been accepted and has also been sent to ACAS and the defendant.

Edited December 12, 2009 by majik

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

From what i can gather from your posts, this was added after the intial disciplinary ?

 

After the first 3 allegations were made.

 

Is this correct ?

 

Regards

[majik]

It was added after the investigative meeting but before the disciplinary meeting. So yes it was added after the first 3 alleagtion were made but before the disciplinary took place so there is no reason for it not to be dicussed. I did state that i didnt think it could be added but i was told i was wrong and that it could by HR.

 

I was informed via email that it was going to be added to the disciplinary and it was what i was dismissed for (in my opinion still awaiting definative answer) but i can find no mention allegation 4 in the disciplinary minutes and as i stated it actually states in the first line of the minutes that "we are here to discuss the 3 alleagtions made against you"

[mariefab]

Please bear with me, I seem to have gone a little copy & paste crazy.

Allegation 4- I am accused of giving a pin code/access code to open a roller shutter door at work to my partner.

　

It was added after the investigative meeting but before the disciplinary meeting. So yes it was added after the first 3 alleagtion were made but before the disciplinary took place so there is no reason for it not to be dicussed. I did state that i didnt think it could be added but i was told i was wrong and that it could by HR.

 

I was informed via email that it was going to be added to the disciplinary and it was what i was dismissed for (in my opinion still awaiting definative answer) but i can find no mention allegation 4 in the disciplinary minutes and as i stated it actually states in the first line of the minutes that "we are here to discuss the 3 alleagtions made against you"

　

I did not give my partner my code and he asked the staff member on duty for a code or key to open to shutter to take photos of any signs regarding CCTV.

On the day when it was mentioned (i was asked how my partner obtained my code and just said it was not from me and that he informed me it was from the other member of staff), i also stated that i did not think it could be part of the process and handed a statement to the person chairing from my partner.My partner had written this as his version of the events. He read it then adjurned the meeting for around 30 minutes. He then came back and said after a full and thorough investigation (He made a phone call) he believes that i was lying and so was my partner in his witness statement.

 

I would like to point out that at no point have i said my partner got the code from the other employee i have just stated that he didnt get it from me and handed over a copy of my partners witness statement.

 

 

The first line of the disciplinary minutes states "we are here to discuss the 3 allegation made against you" and after going through the minutes with a fine tooth comb there is no mention of an allegation 4, they do mention an issue invloving a breach of security and confidentialiy but they do not class/mention this as allegation 4.

 

In the dismissal letter it stated, following a telephone call to clarify the issue we believe that you have lied

　

In the Appeal minutes it stated, i have seen a witness statement from staff member and i believe that so i feel you have lied

 

I was told at the appeal to the disciplinary meeting that a witness statement from the female staff member exsisted and the person chairing the meeting had seen it and that if the company feel it to be relevant they will release a copy to me.

 

In the Appeal letter it stated,

Allegation 4 - I have reasonable belief that you did seriously breach security and confidentiality by providing the access code to your partner which he subsequently used to access the premises. I can find no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that other staff member provided the code to your partner and therefore cannot uphold your appeal on this point.

 

Does anyone feel i have a strong case to disprove allegation 4 on the grounds there is no mention of it in my disciplinary

 

No.

1. They are not required to call it an allegation or give it a number.

2. You knew it was going to be discussed at the disciplinary meeting, they sent you an email telling you so.

3. Although you weren't given much notice you took a statement from your OH to defend yourself in regard to this allegation. By presenting this, in your defence, it implies that you believe your OH's statement to be a true version of events.

4. They adjourned the meeting after reading your OH's statement to make a phone call. Presumably to the staff member who he claimed had given him the pin code.

I guess this staff member denied having given him the pin code during that phone call (and has subsequently provided a witness statement to the Appeal chair saying the same).

　

Your real issue with Allegation 4 is that they haven't provided you with any evidence to back up their decision.

 

CCTV footage

OH hasn't been given a date as of yet, OH requested footage to clear his name not mine and to prove his witness statement. Im hoping that once that is done it will result in the company dropping allegation 4.

Orignial 40 day limit on Subject Access Request request was up begining December but due to the CEO believing the letter cleared my OH he didn't think OH still wanted CCTV requested, OH has now clarified what CCTV is required and were hoping to have it by xmas.

 

If I have understood your posts correctly, your OH has requested 2 seperate lots of CCTV footage.

 

1. For the day that he went to deal with the issue of your email addy being accessed. (I assume that this is the day that. in the CEO's letter,he guarantees that no action will be taken by the company now or in the further in relation to said date.)

 

2. For the occasion that relates to your disciplinary when he went to take photos, for which he needed the pin code.

 

If your OH made it clear in his SAR that he required both lots of footage then the CEO has no excuse for not providing them. It's not up to him to unilaterally decide that his letter regarding 1 means that he is no longer required to comply with the SAR and as a data controller he should know this.

　

OK, your ET1 has been accepted.

A copy has been sent to The Company along with an ET3 for their response.

They'll have 28 days to complete and return it. (In theory, 2 week extensions on request are not uncommon.) You'll be sent a copy.

The Employment Tribunal will give you a hearing date. Acas will get in touch with you and offer to mediate.

Disclosure of documents stage. This is when you list and exchange copies of all documents/evidence on which your case will rely. (Also, you send a schedule of loss.)

Importantly, this is when you can request copies of any relevant document/ evidence that you believe that the Company has. So, this is when you get that witness statement.

There are further stages e.g. your own witness statements, sometimes a case management or pre-hearing review etc. but they will probably be months away.

[jonahbones123]

Apologies if this turns up in the wrong place. New on here.

 

Friday 11th dec i was suspended from work with full pay, after attending an informal fact finding interview. ( which i knew nothing about until i was called in). They were regarding a few issues from the 1st nov 09, (i'm not sure if the 28day rule applies here).

 

Basically i disagreed with the allegations thus ending up with a disciplinary meeting for weds 16th dec. I am on my rest days tues til sat and due to family commitments am unable to attend. Am i able to adjourn it for another date, preferably one that would have been a rotad work day?

 

Also i had sat/sun off as paid holiday, does anyone know if i'm entitled to claim that back?

 

Many thanks.

 

Matt

Edited December 16, 2009 by jonahbones123
ut n wrong place.

[majik]

OH made it clear that certain footage would only be required if allegation 4 was upheld in the companies favour as the CCTV requested would prove his version of events. myself and OH feel we should already have the CCTV footage and that the company may be delibrately witholding until it is over written.

 

Both the pin code and email addy events happened on the same day (Not sure if that has been clear so far)

 

The email states allegation 4 was added due to OH attendening site and taking photographs.Claims "He then got very confrontational with Male staff member and his behaviour was construed as aggressive" This was when he was asked what he was doing my male staff member. Following

investigation it is apparent that OH used your Manager code to gain unauthorized access to the building, which may I remind you , is considered a serious breach of confidentiality and security.OH has since returned to the premises and acted aggressively towards members of staff which required the police to be called.

Therefore, in view of this, I write to inform you that we also intend to discuss with you at the disciplinary hearing, in addition to the allegations already put to you in the letter of X X, the allegation of a serious breach of confidentiality and security, in that you provided your boyfriend with the Manager's code, which he subsequently used to access our premises earlier today without authority to do so"

However letter from CEO states "following your letter dated X X i have fully investigated the events that took place and have concluded that your actions on this day, in my opinion, did not constitute any illegal act. I believe yourself and the staff present that day acted in a maner that was probably conducive to the situation given other circumstances and in hindslight the matter could have been handled slightly better. I can give you my guarantee that i will not be pursuing the matter any further nor or in the furure on the ground that i do not believe any offence has taken place.

trust we can now close the matter" Surely unathorised access is trespass ? The reason for allegation 4 being added seems to be at least partly due to the claimed aggression by my OH which CEO has confirmed he found no evidence of ?

If witness statement is so strong as there evidence to allegation 4 why have they not released it, my OH believes its because it is full of claims of violance and aggression towards the staff on site which CEO has already confirmed is untrue

Edited December 13, 2009 by majik

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

I think the ceo letter is referring to an illegal act involving the police and not the case of using the managers code.

 

He may be referring to the company or individual taking legal matters over the alleged aggression and the alarm being set off.

 

These seem like 2 seperate events, you should seek clarification from the ceo that these are 2 seperate cases.

 

Regards

[majik]

They are 2 seperate events however the part OH feels the relevant part of the CEO's letter is below.

 

"i have fully investigated the events that took place and have concluded that your actions on this day, in my opinion, did not constitute any illegal act"

 

Clearly no illegal act took place with the second event or the Police would have dealt with it as they were present.

 

So that brings me back to the first event (managers/pin code issue)

 

 

If OH entered the building unathorised as suggested

• Why was he allowed to sign in as a visitor ?
  
• Why was he allowed to wait for a few minutes for staff member to finish telephone call before having a general conversation for a few minutes involing the alleged release of the code in question ?
  
• Once he had entered said building unauthorised why wasnt the Panic/Intruder alarm activated ?
  
• Why were the Police not called ?
  
• Why was he allowed to sign out again involving a general conversation with staff member?
  

• If OH acted aggresively as stated why the retraction when OH threatened to sue for libel/slander ?
  
• Why have they been able to provide no proof OH acted incorrectly?
  

They have multiple camera's onsite and would have clearly been able to capture any alleged aggression.

 

I just feel that the more i look at it the more questions there are ?

 

Surely it is in the companies best interests to provide proof/evidence to back up there alleagtions and can not really understand why they have not released anything in relation to allegation 4 as they clearly feel this is there strongest allegation.

Edited December 14, 2009 by majik

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

I might have a few ideas on the questions you posed:

• Why was he allowed to sign in as a visitor ? Was the staff member on site fully trained on procedures ?
  
• Why was he allowed to wait for a few minutes for staff member to finish telephone call before having a general conversation for a few minutes involing the alleged release of the code in question ? as above
  
• Once he had entered said building unauthorised why was the Panic/Intruder alarm activated ? i thought the intruder alarm was raised around the email event ??
  
• Why were the Police not called ? I thought they was called when email event happened ??
  
• Why was he allowed to sign out again involving a general conversation with staff member? was staff member on site fully trained on procedures ?
  
• If OH acted aggresively as stated why the retraction when OH threatened to sue for libel/slander ? did OH threaten to sue the staff direct or just ceo ? seems like staff were never consulted or approached from either side ??
  
• Why have they been able to provide no proof OH acted incorrectly? You will be able to see proof they have when it goes to ET.
  

Regards

[majik]

Yes staff member well aware of the procedures and male staff member (who arrived as OH entered the building the building with the code in question) is a member of management.

 

Apologies was meant to read why wasn't intruder alarm activated, have now amended original post.

 

Police were called for second event, My question is why were they not called for the first event ? with it being as serious as the company claim.

 

OH Threatened to sue CEO and Company as the only evidence he had was direct from CEO (CEO wrote to my partner and implied that an illegal act took place). The only thing we have from staff member direct is an email from HR stating that OH behaviour was constrewn as aggressive by male staff member. Nothing solid so not really anything OH can do other than ask HR to put up or shut up as he did with CEO.

 

Whilst i understand that it MAY arrive via the ET, it still does not explain why the company have released nothing to date

 

Is it normal practice for a company to dismiss someone but refuse to release any evidence in relation to an allegation ?

Edited December 14, 2009 by majik