Suspended pending investigation thats already happened ?

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Just wondering how you are getting on with your ex employer ?

 

Have they gave you any evidence yet ?

 

Has the et been held yet ?

 

Regards

[elpulpo]

My god. I thought you'd both just worn out yer fingers and couldn't type anymore.

[majik]

No evidence yet, County Court papers served due to breach of SAR and no reply to that either so Default judgement will be applied for when i can.

 

ET takes months, still has few days to reply before out of time etc so again, had letter from there solicitor who says they are reprsenting etc and thats it, have checked with ET no extension has been asked for to date so again will judgement as and when i can.

[majik]

Update !!

 

Rumour has it that the 2 people involved in this are leaving in the near future (1 person has already notice handed in and leave in a few weeks) or already left the company in question.

 

How will this effect the ET ?

 

They are the only 2 people in the company that has seen any evidence in relation to Allegation 4 ?

 

The company time is almost up for both the County Court case and ET defence, will this change the way forward as 1 member of staff is personally named in both the ET paperwork and County Court paperwork (The company is also fully named)

Edited January 7, 2010 by majik

[mariefab]

How will this effect the ET ?

As your tribunal case is against the Company I would suggest that this is likely to cause problems for them rather than for you. (The Company is ultimately responsible for the actions and decisions of their management etc.)

[majik]

That was my thinking too

 

However only person in High management (Chairman i believe) for the company is based overseas ?

 

I do not think the Chairman knows anything about my case or my partners legal action.

 

Should i be infomring the court/ET of anything ?

 

I am not 100 % they have left etc, it was passed onto me by a current memeber of staff who i am unsure whether to believe or not.

[mariefab]

Should i be infomring the court/ET of anything ?

 

No, it's the Company's problem.

[majik]

Ok great

 

On a side note im still waiting for the CEO to respond to a letter i sent him asking him to clarify my appeal, Obviously he has left so what do i do now ?

 

There are 2 allegations where he states that their is no evidence to prove one side or the other in relation to my appeal ? i asked him to clairify whether the appeal had been upheld in my favour or the companies but have had to reply to date. Also the end of his letter states his decision is final and the company will not look into it again ?

 

Am i likely to get a reply from the company in relation to this or should i leave it for the ET to sort out ?

 

I was hoping to have a reply so when it goes to ET i can state that allegation xyz have been upheld in my favour at the appeal so ET only needs to deal with abc etc or does it not work like that ?

[mariefab]

Am i likely to get a reply from the company in relation to this or should i leave it for the ET to sort out ?

 

No idea whether you will get a reply from the Company in the circumstances.

One way or another the ET will sort things out.

[majik]

Will the ET still deal with the allegations that the company have confirmed that i did no wrong in ? E.G where they upheld the my appeal in my favour etc ?

[mariefab]

It depends on what is in the Company's ET3.

You will be sent a copy of this soon after the ET receive it. You'll have a better idea of what you'll be dealing with then.

 

had letter from there solicitor who says they are representing etc

 

Be extremely careful not to respond in any way to any communication, however friendly or innocent seeming, from the Company's solicitor without first taking advice.

[majik]

Sorry i think i mis worded what i meant

 

I meant i had a letter from ET confirming that xx will representing the respondant etc, Called court today who have confirmed that they have received a response but it may take upto 3 weeks before i get it due to bad weather and backlogs over xmas etc

 

Once i get it i will know more i guess, be interesting to see how they can defend my dismissal when to date they have not released or shown me any evidence to back up the 1 allegation they are claiming was Gross Misconduct etc.

[mariefab]

Once i get it i will know more i guess, be interesting to see how they can defend my dismissal when to date they have not released or shown me any evidence to back up the 1 allegation they are claiming was Gross Misconduct etc.

 

I guess you mean allegation 4; where you were accused of giving your pin code to your OH.

 

I suggest that they may state that, during the disciplinary hearing, they made a phone call to the staff member whom your OH alleged had given him the pin code.

That the staff member categorically denied giving him the pin code.

They believed this staff member.

At some time between the dismissal and the appeal hearing the staff member provided a written statement confirming that they didn't give your OH the pin code.

They still believed the staff member so the decision to dismiss you was upheld.

 

They will need to disclose this statement, so you'll eventually get to see it.

Edited January 7, 2010 by mariefab
removed link

[majik]

Ok but they will also have to answer why it wasn't released to date surely and why they dismissed for an alleged allegation and never discussed in in disciplinary.

 

Disciplinary states 3 allegation to be discussed and no mention of a 4th allegation merely one question which was asked at the end after he had stated that complates the 3 allegations is there anything to add where i asked for CCTV footage and the reply to this question was "What happened with your pin code"

 

I feel i can quite easily argue that it was never addressed at length if at all in the disciplinary and that they have dilibrately with held evidence to hamper my defence, namely anything related to allegation 4 including all the CCTV i requested which would clearly prove my OH version of events.

 

Hopefully end of this month i will get the reply and can then request the evidence (namely witness statment) from ex employee who left as they didn't get my job. (I feel the statement will be false and can easily be proved via telephone records and CCTV whihc they have not released to date andthat it was only written as the ex staff member believed that they would take over my job)

[mariefab]

Ok but they will also have to answer why it wasn't released to date surely

 

They told you they had the statement. It's kinda obvious that it surely must contain a denial of having given your OH the pin code. You didn't need to read it to know that.

They could perhaps argue that they were protecting the witnesses identity.

 

Disciplinary states 3 allegation to be discussed and no mention of a 4th allegation "What happened with your pin code"

They sent you an email before the disciplinary about the 4th allegation.

You took a statement about it from your OH to the disciplinary.

 

I wouldn't get bogged down with possible minor procedural errors.

I'd focus my attention on getting that CCTV footage.

[mikeyboy197663]

I would be very carefull about throwing allegations around about other members of staff after your job, i would also be very carefull about talking to current members of staff, as this could be perceived that you are trying to sway the outcome of the et and interfere with investigations.

 

The cctv may have been with held as the other people in the footage might have requested for it to have been withheld . again im sure you will find this out at the et.

 

Is the memeber of staff your talking to a current member of management or anything to do with the investigation ?

[majik]

I would be very carefull about throwing allegations around about other members of staff after your job, i would also be very carefull about talking to current members of staff, as this could be perceived that you are trying to sway the outcome of the et and interfere with investigations.

 

Technically the staff member spoke to me, i was walking to work and he saw me and stopped to talk to me. No not memeber of management or involved in investigation and again not actually talking to as such, merely passed in street and he informed me of a few things going on in the company, i did not ask for it i was asked "did i know the new goings on etc". Did not exchange contact info or any way to contact again etc.

I was also informed that the reason for staff member leaving was not getting my old job in this "chance meeting" so im not thowing allegations around, i ahve always believed that this was the motive behind her actions and the current staff member has merely added weight to that theory.

 

They told you they had the statement. It's kinda obvious that it surely must contain a denial of having given your OH the pin code. You didn't need to read it to know that.

They could perhaps argue that they were protecting the witnesses identity.

They have told me who the statement is from so cant really be protecting her, i believe that the statement is libelous to OH and as the CEO has already confirmed that certain things did not happen i think the "alleged witness statement" is factually incorrect and that is why it has not been released.

 

Disciplinary states 3 allegation to be discussed and no mention of a 4th allegation "What happened with your pin code"

 

They sent you an email before the disciplinary about the 4th allegation.

You took a statement about it from your OH to the disciplinary.

 

Again could be classed as minor but the wording used in the dissmisal letter is not the same as what was stated in email, i know minor but in email they claim OH illegally entered property causing Police to attend. This was not correct and CEO has confirmed this. They also claim partner was abusive to a staff member (Staff member in question (manager) was not present the first time OH attended site (when allegation 4 in alleged to have happened) CCTV will prove this) (can also be proved by lack of witness statement from that manager staff member) so again the email sent informing me the "alleged offense" was going to be added is factually incorrect.

 

I believe that the CCTV will now be overwritten however i can show that my OH requested it immedialetly and also it is in the County Court papers OH Sent requesting that it is kept until a case is heard etc so surely i can show i have done everything i could to get the CCTV and company has ignored my requests, possibly to prevent me from proving my side/version of events or to prevent the witness statement being proven to be false ?

 

I think i will wait until i get their reply and then work from that, i believe that the email sent to me informing me that allegation 4 was going to be added is potentially libelous and CEO has already confirmed is factually incorrect, It also shows that the company made no attempt to gather infomation about allegation 4 before my disciplinary, evidence was gained during meeting "allegedly" and after the disciplinary but i have been given no right of appeal in relation to allegation 4 as to date nothing have been shown to show the offense took place. Its more of a staff member has told me u lied and i believe her which is certainly not a fair hearing and i believe a brecah of ACAS code of conduct.

Edited January 8, 2010 by majik
spelling

[majik]

Hi All

 

Wondering if any HR experts are around that can help out with this problem.

 

Can i be sacked for an allegation that is not mentioned in a disciplinary ?

 

After reading through the minutes with a fine tooth combe i can find no mention of allegation 4

 

Hand written notes state the meeting is to discuss the 3 allegations and then lists allegation 1-3 and the typed up notes says exactly the same thing "we are here to disucss the 3 allegations made against you"

 

Can i complain that allegation 4 has never been discussed ? its noted in my dismissal letter that is is a reason behind why i was dismissed but it was not discussed in the disciplinary meeting.

 

Also in relation to the clarification of my dismissal (allegation 1 and 3) the company have stated that i have to deal with there solicitors who were appointed after i had sent the letter, ET have said that if letter was sent before the appoint solicitors the company should reply what do i do now ?

Also after contacting the solicitors they have confirmed that they have told the company not to reply to anything and to forward it to them but have also confirmed that at present they have not discussed the case with the client and until they do they cannot answer any quieries.

ET have confirmed that they ahve recieved a response to the claim and it will be with me in due course, clearly bad weather and xmas back log will delay this slightly.

[mikeyboy197663]

hi,

 

sorry i am a bit confused,

 

you originally stated that they emailed you after the investigation and added allegation 4 , you then turned up at the next meeting with a statement from your other half ? this would mean that you was fully aware that it would be disscussed as you prepared a statement ?

 

Regards

[majik]

They emailsed me after the investigative meeting but before the disciplinary and said they were going to add it but they had not made any attempt to investiagte this beofre the metting. They have still to date no managed to show anything to suggest that they have ever investigated the allegation

 

I was prepared for it to be discussed as per there email but it wasn't mentioned or discussed. All paperwork clearly states 3 allegations and lists them as allegations 1-3.

 

They make no mention of it at all in either the hand written or typed up minutes both state "we are here to discuss the 3 allegations against you"

 

Once all 3 allegations have been discussed i am asked if there is anything i would like to add, i ask when i will get the CCTV i have asked for, they replied "what happened to your pin code" i hand over witness statement from OH meeting adjurned for 30 mins, Chair person comes back and says "after fully investigating this issue i believe staff member"

End of meeting

No discussion about it, no evidence ever shown about it.

Surely that is a breach of ACAS code of conduct, i have not been given the opertunity let alone a fair chance to defend myself against allegation 4 and despite my best efforts to date the company will not release anything in relation to it, They have broken the law by not responding to my OH S.A.R and have not replied in any way shape or form, He is waiting for there defense atm which will be very interesting to see.

[mikeyboy197663]

Surely that is a breach of ACAS code of conduct, i have not been given the opertunity let alone a fair chance to defend myself against allegation 4.

By you taking the prepared statement along means you was prepared to defend yourself, otherwise you would have not prepared and taken along the statement.

 

 

They have broken the law by not responding to my OH S.A.R and have not replied in any way shape or form,

They have not broken the law, there is probably a good reason for not realising cctv, someone else in the footage may have objected to the release of the cctv footage, also did your oh pay the £10.00 fee for the release of cctv ? and did your oh provide a picture or description of himself so they can get the correct cctv footage ? this is standard law on subject access requests?

 

Regards

[majik]

Surely that is a breach of ACAS code of conduct, i have not been given the opertunity let alone a fair chance to defend myself against allegation 4.

By you taking the prepared statement along means you was prepared to defend yourself, otherwise you would have not prepared and taken along the statement.

 

But it was not discussed so i wasn't given the opportunity to defend myself.

 

They have broken the law by not responding to my OH S.A.R and have not replied in any way shape or form,

They have not broken the law, there is probably a good reason for not realising cctv, someone else in the footage may have objected to the release of the cctv footage, also did your oh pay the £10.00 fee for the release of cctv ? and did your oh provide a picture or description of himself so they can get the correct cctv footage ? this is standard law on subject access requests?

 

Yes they had all the infomation above and no one else in the footage as only other person around was staff member in other building.

I believe that they have broken the law as the ICO state should a company fail to follow a S.A.R. request then you can open a case with the ICO or Via County Court . There is no reason for their non compliance other than for the evidence to be overwritten which i feel i could arguably prove was the companies fault as i have done everthing in my power to prevent that happening.

How would an ET look at this, i have done everything i could to obtain the infomation and the company has failed to keep it therefore there would be no proof one way or the other.

 

Regards

 

Please see my comments in red

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Your defence was your oh statement !

 

They informed you with 24 hrs notice that this would be added, you then defended yourself with your oh statement, they probably throughly investigated this between the 2 meetings, then took a recess to read the statement and clarify the events with the member of staff.

 

sorry think i missed something, are you requesting the cctv footage of the staff member supplying your oh the alleged access code ?

 

Regards

[majik]

NO investigation took place until the meeting was adjurned in relation to allegation 4, (they claim to have fully and throughly investigated the issue within 30 minutes)

 

Yes part of the CCTV requested is where the code was release however the staff member would not be visable due to the angle of cameras, you mite be able to see the back of her head from the front facing monitors but i doubt this.

 

Surely if someone has objected to the release of the footage they would need to inform OH as this is why they have not complied with the S.A.R. they have not informed him of anything only that they fully intend to defend the claim.

 

Statement cannot be classed as my defense as they didn't bring up the issue or discuss it ergo it was not addressed so thats why i feel i have not been able to defend, OH witness statement is his side/opinion of the events i Have yet to see the companies side of events but they have had every opportunity to show it and haven't which leads me to think that it either doesn't exsist or it contradicts what the CEO has already said. Of course without seeing it its all hearsay atm.

Edited January 13, 2010 by majik

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

If the other member of staff felt threatned in anyway and feared for there safety they can (by law) request for the cctv footage showing them (even back of there head) to be withheld. the company do not need to tell you this as you might take action against other member of staff, ( not saying you would , just playing devils advocate)

 

can you please confirm the following dates:

 

When did the alleged "code giving" incident happen ?

 

when did they inform you by email that it would be added to the overall investigation?

 

When did the second meeting (where you presented oh statement) happen ?

 

How can you be so sure that they did not investiage this, if you have never seen any evidence or statements ?

 

The main reason for this is, they probably have allready done a full investigation before emailing you to tell you it would be added.

 

Regards