Growing HSBC Managed Loan Advice

[djwigster]

Thanks Johnny, I will compose a cutting letter for them.

 

First, just a couple of questions:

 

Do I head the letter "formal complaint"?

Does this put the account in formal dispute (ie payments can be stopped until resolved), or does this come later?

 

Sorry they're so basic, but Im new to this and don't want to fall at the first fence due to not following proper etiquette.

[johnnymitch]

I think it's obvious already that the account is 'In Dispute' djw.....

 

I'd just send the above letter and see what they come back with ..... you could head it 'Formal Complaint ' if you like ..... what you should get iis a 'Final decision ' from them saying they will not argue any further - that they are right (in their judgement) ...... then you can take it to FOS , having exhausted all avenues with the bank (as you're supposed to do before involving FOS.).......

[djwigster]

That's great, will do!

 

Thanks again

[218bhp]

djwigster - An interesting read and one I may refer to in the future. I have a managed loan with HSBC and have been "happily" making payment for the last 6 years without thinking about it.

 

I'll follow your progress with great interest!

[djwigster]

djwigster - An interesting read and one I may refer to in the future. I have a managed loan with HSBC and have been "happily" making payment for the last 6 years without thinking about it.

 

I'll follow your progress with great interest!

 

Yes, please do!

 

I am just waiting for a response off HSBC now after lighting the blue touch paper. Sent them 3 letters, 1 putting the account in dispute because of the above discrepancy, a letter before action for unfair charges and 1 saying that my 15.9KG of SAR was incomplete as it never gave any PPI details!

 

Will let you know when I get a response.

[218bhp]

Does the managed loan include an option for PPI? I dont think mine gave me that choice.

[djwigster]

No, not the managed loans, but the previous personal loans all do. Im just trying to find out whether they were all sold in an "above board" fashion. Fingers crossed they weren't

[johnnymitch]

They may try to duck out of the PPI issue djw,on the grounds that it's a 'separate' part of the company (i.e. the insurance branch) which deals with it ......... so that you have to do another SAR to them ..

 

Have a look at the PPI forum on here - start a thread on there and ask if you're in doubt , there's a lot of wise heads on there .....

 

Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) - The Consumer Forums

[djwigster]

They may try to duck out of the PPI issue djw,on the grounds that it's a 'separate' part of the company (i.e. the insurance branch) which deals with it ......... so that you have to do another SAR to them ..

 

Your crystal ball worketh correctly!!

[johnnymitch]

Sorry ..... I know 'em too well djw

 

but don't let them off the hook ..... it'll be worth an extra tenner to stuff 'em ........LOL!

[djwigster]

I think it's obvious already that the account is 'In Dispute' djw.....

 

I'd just send the above letter and see what they come back with ..... you could head it 'Formal Complaint ' if you like ..... what you should get iis a 'Final decision ' from them saying they will not argue any further - that they are right (in their judgement) ...... then you can take it to FOS , having exhausted all avenues with the bank (as you're supposed to do before involving FOS.).......

 

Just a quick update...

 

It has now been 5 weeks since I sent the above "in dispute" letter to HSBC and I have received no acknowledgement of this actual letter from them (it was sent recorded so I know they have it). In the letter I quoted the wilson & anor vs hurstanger judgement and stated that while the account is in dispute any demands for payment will be treated as harassment.

 

They have, however, still sent a couple of nice notice of arrears letters and a "putting your finances in order" booklet. These will be going into my "harassment" folder as per my letter.

 

Will let you know if I hear any more.

[djwigster]

...and now the phonecalls are starting!! They threatened to pass the account to a DCA as it is now a couple of months in arrears. I told the chap I had no intention of paying while the account is in dispute. After being put on hold for a few minutes while he read my complaint letter (at least I now know they have it), he said he couldnt see why we were bothered about such a small discrepancy and that "its too late now as this should have been picked up before signing for the loan". I told him to keep everything in writing and to stop ringing from now on and to see Father Christmas if he wants any money!!

[djwigster]

Another quick update, and request on how best to proceed please.

 

Basically, since I have put the Managed Loan into dispute, I have not received any worthwhile response to my complaint...just various "account in arrears" threatograms and two letters thanking me for my "phonecall complaining about poor service I have received" (no mention of my complaint letters sent originally on 20th October 2009, and an Elevated Complaint sent on 11th December 2009).

 

HSBC have, in the meantime, been charging £25 per month for reversed direct debits for the managed loan, as there are not enough fees in the current account to cover it (I wonder why ).

 

Now I have received this, and am wondering how best to proceed:

 

 

[second page is the usual crap about how they can help if we are struggling with our finances, and enclosing another "putting your finances in order" booklet (thats about 15 I have now) ]

 

Obviously, I have no intention of paying this back as the "overdraft" is 100% charges.

 

Am I correct in saying that they are not supposed to collect on an account that is in dispute anyway, and therefore there should be no charges?

 

Also, Im sure Ive read something on here about not sending back any debit/credit cards to them as they can smoehow use it against you (cant remember exactly why). Any ideas?

 

And finally, should I now be reporting them to the OFT, FOS etc...I think they've had long enough to answer my complaint...or should I just ignore them?

 

Thanks

[emandcole]

Hi,

I think what you need to remember is that HSBC are a machine. Their employess gradually have bits replaced until they no longer need to go home at night, the chief android merely places them into suspension for the evening where they are uploaded with any new scripts to repeat for the following days business.

 

With that as a given I would certainly involve the FOS and all authorities, OK we know the FOS aren't great but if this blows up you'll have the benefit of being able to say you explored the problems you were having in the 'right' way.

 

HSBC also messed up loan figures on my partners managed loan, an accumulation of credit card charges, business account extortion and personal account piracy. We've spent nearly a year asking them to explain why the figures don't add up and they will not respond, they keep issuing those patronising letters and the booklets on how we can get our finances in order.

 

After reviewing their booklet I was dismayed to note that they had not provided detailed schematics on how I could fly down a ventilation shaft in a spaceship to deliver the crippling blow resulting in the destruction of their mother ship...so I stuck it in the re-cycling bin instead.

 

Point is HSBC are on their own little planet and they will happily continue applying their charges whilst perpetuating the image of being responsible *ankers and asking if there's anything at all they can do to help you.

HSBCs' business model is akin to being licked by a puppy whilst it excitedly pees on your new shoes.

 

Good news for us is that they sent an invalid default notice a few weeks ago and now they've terminated which I wrote to accept. Best they can hope for now is the arrears but given the fact they still haven't explained why they can't add up we won't be paying those either .

 

Report them and get the FOS to take over, you'll get nowhere by yourself and if you have a default notice post it up here. If they also terminate your agreement on a bad default notice you can do the same as us.

 

Closest we'll ever get to blowing that mother ship up

[johnnymitch]

HSBCs' business model is akin to being licked by a puppy whilst it excitedly pees on your new shoes.

 

Unfortunately , IMHO it's a lot more sinister than that ...... more like smiling to the Financial watchdogs ... while gripping you tightly by the throat !!!!

 

[djwigster]

Thanks for your comments and advice as always!

 

I will begin formulating my cutting letter for HSBC, and complaints to the ombudsman

[djwigster]

A nice little update for you!:

 

We sent a letter disputing the overdraft charges and requested that they do indeed close the current account, as threatened in their letter. I hadnt submitted any complaint the the FOS as in the meantime we received this rather intriguing letter:

 

 

This is my response to that one:

 

Mr(s) C Smith

 

I refer to your letter of 28 January 2010, which was received on 3 February 2010 (copy Enclosed)

I must admit to being rather bemused and somewhat worried by the opening paragraph, which refers to a “recent conversation” during which you “agreed to call (me) back over the last week”.

The last conversation I had with anybody at HSBC was nearly 2 months ago, therefore I am concerned that there is a possibility that you had a conversation with somebody who was in fact pretending to be me. Obviously if this is the case it would have serious ramifications in terms of Data Protection and the integrity of the accounts I hold with you, so I wish to urgently confirm whether the conversation you refer to was indeed with me.

To assist me with this, please can you confirm exactly when this conversation took place and provide either an audio copy or transcript of the conversation.

As this is a serious matter where time is of the essence, I require this information by 19th February 2010.

If this information is not forthcoming or if, following investigations into this matter, a breach of Data Protection is found, please be aware that I reserve the right to report this to the Information Commissioner’s Office and to seek compensation.

Secondly, you should be aware that I have an on-going complaint with HSBC reference telephone harassment and I have formally requested that all telephone calls cease (see letters dated October 20th 2009 and December 11th 2009, copies enclosed). All future communication to me should therefore be made in writing only.

I look forward to your prompt response in this matter.

 

---

 

Then the following day we received a default notice ref the Managed Loan account:

 

Can somebody please confirm that this is compliant.

 

In my eyes this changes very little as they still haven't responded to my original complaint about the managed loan. So as far as Im concerned

if the "debt" gets passed to any DCA's then they can sod off as the account is in dispute.

 

Comments?

 

Many thanks

[emandcole]

Unfortunately they've allowed more than the minimum amount of time needed on the default so this would be acceptable. Have a question for you though as we too have/had an HSBC managed loan. I say had because they recently sent an invalid default notice (not enough time) and then issued a termination letter which we quickly accepted, leaving just arrears legally owing due to their unlawful repudiation of contract.

 

Have you checked your loan figures for accuracy? Ours were out by nearly £2 and HSBC spent more than a year refusing to explain why their figures did not add up. Best we ever got was some waffle about leap years . Absolute tosh. Based on that and their wilfull ignorance we placed the account in dispute for many months before they finally issued the default etc.

 

So, check your figures, HSBC frequently made simple mistakes and depending on the date the loan was taken (forced onto you in your best interests ) this could be your way out.

[djwigster]

Unfortunately they've allowed more than the minimum amount of time needed on the default so this would be acceptable. Have a question for you though as we too have/had an HSBC managed loan. I say had because they recently sent an invalid default notice (not enough time) and then issued a termination letter which we quickly accepted, leaving just arrears legally owing due to their unlawful repudiation of contract.

 

Have you checked your loan figures for accuracy? Ours were out by nearly £2 and HSBC spent more than a year refusing to explain why their figures did not add up. Best we ever got was some waffle about leap years . Absolute tosh. Based on that and their wilfull ignorance we placed the account in dispute for many months before they finally issued the default etc.

 

 

That's bad news on the DN, but what I expected as soon as I saw that they'd put an actual date rather than "pay within 14 days" or similar. Arrghghghghgh, why couldn't they have got ours wrong

 

That's the bad news, the good news is that yes, there is a discrepancy on our loan too (see 1st page of this thread), so that is why we are disputing and refusing to pay. HSBC have refused to give any meaningful answer to the dispute, and just continue to try (unsuccessfully) to take the DD, charge us for being unable to collect it...even though they shouldnt be trying whilst its in dispute...then come up with crap like the letters above. Fortunately the phonecalls have stopped now (since I went to the online banking and changed our telephone number to the same one as their collections department ).

 

So, I guess it's just a case of deflecting all of the letters/threats from DCAs until they take us to court? ...oh and reporting them to the FSA/OFT, and receiving more "Putting Your Finances In Order" booklets of course!!

[emandcole]

Absolutely. Keep asking them why their figures don't add up and if they keep ignoring you and eventually try to take you to court you'll be able to display a fat folder of recorded delivery letters asking them a very simple question. As the debtor you have every right to expect a bank to give you a very straight forward answer and until they do you're in the right to place into dispute...as you already know.

 

I firmly believe that HSBC have a load of these wrongly calculated loans and in every case I've read about it the bank refuse to even acknowledge it, ignoring questions for month after month (17 in our case).

 

What date was the loan 'taken'? Is it a pre April 2006?

[djwigster]

Thanks for the advice. Its nice to know that we are not the only ones in this sort of situation!

 

The loan was taken out in 2003 originally, and last re-hashed in July 2005.

[emandcole]

Far as I can see that's possibly why the bank is being so evasive. Due to the age, section 187 of the CCA still applies meaning that this loan cannot be in the slightest mis stated as it renders it unenforceable.

 

Had the loan been executed after the 187 repeal it would have been subject to individual argument on a case by case basis - basically, what mood is the judge in.

 

In short you're in good shape, all things considered. Make sure the bank doesn't offer you a 'great deal' to 'help you out' by somehow giving you a new agreement, one that does add up and one they can get snooty about.

 

Just keep writing to them and ask them why the figures don't add up. Keep all copies and proof of sending in case they do try it on in court (unlikely I feel). If they terminate the agreement whilst it's subject to dispute make sure you write and accept their unlawful termination. Means they are only then entitled to arrears as stated on any original default notice, and that's only if they are correct.

[djwigster]

OK, a further development...and make sure you are sitting down

 

Was going to follow this advice:

 

Just keep writing to them and ask them why the figures don't add up. Keep all copies and proof of sending in case they do try it on in court (unlikely I feel). If they terminate the agreement whilst it's subject to dispute make sure you write and accept their unlawful termination. Means they are only then entitled to arrears as stated on any original default notice, and that's only if they are correct.

 

However, before I had chance to sit and write my letters this arrived in the post:

 

 

 

 

Funny how the alledged phonecall has now turned into a letter

And yes, that's correct, they are now admitting to the error on the managed loan agreement...after nearly 6 months of ignoring our complaint

 

I presume the next stage is to complain to the Senior Service Manager and then the FOS in the likely event that my complaint does not have a satisfactory response (as per their suggestion).

 

Thanks

[johnnymitch]

Oh boy djw ,

 

Guard this letter with your life..... make and keep copies in case you lose it ... this is their admission that the figures don't add up .... and 72.75 is not a 'minor error ' as they put it ..... it's yawning gap .... and makes the agreement unenforceable ......

 

There is a letter somewhere (which i can't find at the moment ,) where a judge has said that it doesn't matter how far it's out .... if it doesn't agree then it falls foul of the Consumer Credit Act ..... maybe someone else on here can produce it for you ....

[johnnymitch]

Ah ! found it DJW .......... atwozee's brilliant letter .....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/190821-hsbc-does-incorrect-unenforceable-2.html#post2071656

 

In fact ,that whole thread is worth your time to read it ...... shows what may be further down the line for you and how to deal with it ....

Edited February 23, 2010 by johnnymitch