Halifax and wifes loan - Agree Section 78 Write Off **won**

[Its WAR]

Still doesnt answer my question. I have three credit cards. Are you saying that the overdraft on them can be wiped out if they cannot show a signature on a copy credit agreement? If so, we should all be paying the minimum charges each month and not clearing them in full, otherwise whats the point in claiming?

[mevsthem]

Subbed, Well Done!!!

[lexis200]

Are you suggesting we all write to halifax for a signed cca in the hope they cant oblige, and then pursue a write off of our credit card debts? and the same for other credit card companys. Sounds good to me, especially if the credit card is donkeys years old. But is this really the case?

 

Still doesnt answer my question. I have three credit cards. Are you saying that the overdraft on them can be wiped out if they cannot show a signature on a copy credit agreement? If so, we should all be paying the minimum charges each month and not clearing them in full, otherwise whats the point in claiming?

 

If they can't produce a copy of your signed agreement then you may be able to get it declared unenforceable. I got a complete dud of an application from BOS about a year ago, but they are still arguing the toss with me. It is not a cut and dried exercise even when they are plainly wrong, unless you happen to hit the jackpot and get the one worker there with a braincell as the OP managed to.

[davey77]

Gary68..

 

Perhaps you could give us a breakdown of the steps you took to achieve this.. letters sent, over what time frame, responses received etc. (When you have time.)

 

I would find that very helpful.

[davey77]

This (of course) came direct from Halifax. Did you have any dealings with Blair, Oliver and Scott?

[Its WAR]

When you do the CCA, do you list all the accounts with the bank and send just £1 and one request, or is it one request for each account you have? Can you do the same for an overdrawn bank account as well as for credit cards?

[joemay]

well done gary68.

[Livis]

Excellent News Gary, well done, you've inspired me to keep the battle going xx:D

[Stressed150]

Wow!!!!! Well done Gary excellent news, subbing for all the useful info as am on Halifax case right now for a credit card with just under £1000, so far they have sent me a microfche copy of an application with no prescribed terms and conditions and it is not easily legible either have a thread titled 'Is this halifax CCA enforceable?' in the debt collection industry section (sorry dnt knw how to create links!!) if anyone else is in the same boat and wants to follow for advice/tips....how long did the whole process take you from start to finish Gary?

Edited July 13, 2009 by Stressed150

[GARY68]

thanks all

for reading,I would take a while to list all the letters to date but I will scan and put up soon,

I have just used the letters from this site and tweaked them a bit,

some back ground

card held since 2002

sent cca in feb

replied with standard t/c

sent account in dispute end feb

sent harrasment letter to customer relations+card services

received -we have sent you your agreement

sent sar / received ( in it contained a nice application form-signed)

phone calls stopped-

recieved long letter of "you have recieved your credit agreement-now pay"

sent another account in dispute-tweaked with oft guide lines

received looking into complaint,

continue to add charges

receieved default letter

recieved closing account please return cut up cards

sent may

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

MAY 2009

 

Dear sir/madam

 

Thank you for your letter dated 24th APRIL 2009 (which I received 30THAPRIL)

This account has been in dispute since 6th MARCH 2009 after you have failed to respond to my request under consumer credit Act section 78,

To date executed agreement has not been supplied to me and whilst I appreciate Halifax has endeavoured to persuade me that provision of a copy of a standard terms and condition letter is sufficient to discharge you from further obligations under section 78 of the Act,

Likewise I too have explained that a mere copy of these are not a legally permisable substitute for the provision of a true copy of the executed agreement as required under section 78 as prescribed by regulation 3 consumer credit act(cancellation Notices and copies of Documents) regulation 1983

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in DISPUTE.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

You have Disregarded and ignored any of my requests and issued a Default and are threatening to pass this account to a third party

This clearly goes against OFT rules on accounts in dispute.

I will be making a complaint to the OFT and Trading standards about your debt collecting activities,

Halifax clearly have not done enough to resolve this situation and After threats of court action ,

Please be aware I will vigorously contest and counter claim any action,

Please also be aware that I too will instruct court action on Halifax under civil protocol rule 31.16 and 31.14.

 

 

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under s65. However, the absence of any prescribed terms means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under s127(3).

 

" The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order."

Unless you can produce a copy of an executable agreement within 21 days I will consider that the above account is now closed and that you will not pursue the alleged debt.

 

Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’. You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

 

Your telephone calls are in breach of the Office of Fair Trading guidelines. If you continue with them after the receipt of this letter an official complaint, together with a log recording the times and frequency of the calls will be passed both to that office and to the Trading Standards office. For your information note that ALL telephone calls are taped.

 

This type of debt collection method is contrary to the ‘Administration of Justice Act 1970’ in that it is intended to cause alarm and distress to the recipient. Your methods will not be tolerated. A formal complaint, containing copies of all correspondence including yours, may be submitted to the relevant authorities. This will be relevant to questions of your fitness to hold a licence under the Consumer Credit Act, whether or not it results in a prosecution.

 

Take further note that continued telephone calls after the receipt of a request not to call may constitute a criminal offence under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

 

Communicate in writing and ONLY in writing, your telephone calls will NOT be answered.

 

HOWEVER, CALLS WILL TRIGGER COMPLAINTS TO THE REGULATORY BODIES.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

received back

 

 

 

 

after this the phone call and letters started from the muppets at Albion collections

[GARY68]

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

 

HALIFAX

PO BOX 718

LEEDS

LS1 9GB

xxxxxxx2009

COMPLAINT REFRENCE: xxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear xxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxxxxxxx this account remains in dispute and I have raised some points in answer to your letter,

Your version of executed agreements and mine differ greatly as you seem to be relying on the amended regulations 1983 (s1 1983/1553).As I am sure you are aware this agreement was 2002.

 

After reviewing the documentation sent in response to my Section 78 request for information relating to the above account and after Legal Advice I note what you have supplied may, or may not, comply with Section 78 of the CCA1974 but in what you have supplied you have failed to produce a document signed myself that contains the prescribed terms as per section 61(a) and section 127(3) of the CCA 1974.

 

I am also aware that there are certain terms that are required to be within the “Agreement” and should these terms be mis-stated or not present within the Original documentation then agreement can be rendered irredeemably unenforceable in law and I therefore refer you to the following of which, as a large financial organisation, I am sure you are fully aware of, If not please let me help you:

 

s61(a) CCA - Signing of agreement:

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

s127(3) CCA:

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

I understand that section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out clearly what is required to comply with my request and quote “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it” For clarification I require a copy of the agreement, any terms and conditions from the time when the agreement was executed together with a copy of current terms and conditions and a copy of the cancellation notice if the agreement refers to “Your Right to Cancel” within it. I also require a statement of account as laid out also within Section 78(1). If there weren’t any terms and conditions then please confirm this in your response

 

I am aware that the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) at Regulation 3 allows the Signature box and signature to be omitted in a copy document but the copy document must contain all the terms of the agreement contained within the signed executed original document

 

In light of the above I respectfully request that you provide a copy of the original agreement signed by myself that you hold on file and while I accept that you can omit the signature box for the purposes of compliance with my request, you will be aware that any challenge to the agreement in court would require the signed copy of the original agreement. If you still reject this, please provide clarification on the status of the Original Credit Agreement and confirm either that you hold the original signed agreement on file or a copy of it on microfiche or that you no longer hold the file.

 

Just to be certain your clear on your point raised in your previous letter ”about the consumer credit act 1974 does not prohibit collection activity when a account is in dispute”

I have never mentioned this and you must be referring to the OFT debt guidelines which as I large company such as the Halifax should realise they clearly state the rules on collection activities on disputed accounts as my last letter.

Again the lack of a credit agreement means there is a very clear dispute

I look forward to receiving the documentation requested.

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxx

Please note I have requested all communication in writing only and I have no reason to answer the telephone because of this request, threats of door step callers from a third party collector will have serious implications for the Halifax with my report to the OFT and Trading standards regarding this activity and a letter has gone out to retail collection address at the Halifax advising on this.

 

then sent this

[GARY68]

have to say this is edited down thread but I think you get the gist,

Albion collection received a letter from me simular to above and also I told both them and the Halifax that I would be charging them £12 per letter:D

[Stressed150]

Lovely thank u so much, would you mind if I was to use the above letter as a template for my next letter to Halifax?? It's too good a letter to not send them it!!

[GARY68]

This (of course) came direct from Halifax. Did you have any dealings with Blair, Oliver and Scott?

 

Hi Davey

I have looked through my files and there is no bos in there, just in mine.

 

"If they can't produce a copy of your signed agreement then you may be able to get it declared unenforceable. I got a complete dud of an application from BOS about a year ago, but they are still arguing the toss with me. It is not a cut and dried exercise even when they are plainly wrong, unless you happen to hit the jackpot and get the one worker there with a braincell as the OP managed to."

 

you maybe correct Lexis or maybe they are thinking is it worth chasing from higher up the chain

[GARY68]

this is something I have got and tweaked from within this site ,use whatever you want,

not completely sure these are in order,just got in and need to sort my lads ps3 out:(

 

I will update later

[postggj]

As Stated

 

Just Dont Take No For An Answer

Be A Dog With A Bone And Dont Let Go

 

In The End Some One With A Brain Cell Will Close The File

[davey77]

Thanks for all the info Gary68.. appreciate you putting the time in to post all that.

 

Too true postggj! Got to stick at it until the fat lady sings (sorry fat ladies everywhere.)

[Stressed150]

BTW Gary, will they be removing all data relating to your account from your credit reference fikes as well?? Seeing as there is no agreement they do not have permission to process your data with the CRA's right? Also will they be removing your default as part of the settlement?

[GARY68]

good point stressed out,

 

this is the wifes card and I shall soon be looking into this, my initial thoughts are that the default will be there on file, I will come up with some action plan as soon as this is confirmed via credit agencies,

[davey77]

good point stressed out,

 

this is the wifes card and I shall soon be looking into this, my initial thoughts are that the default will be there on file, I will come up with some action plan as soon as this is confirmed via credit agencies,

 

Go get 'em!

[GARY68]

Today recieved this

 

[lexis200]

I long for something like that to drop through the letterbox!

 

Very well done Gary, and big congrats on the confirmation of the outcome:)

[davey77]

Very nice! I want one too!

 

Be interesting to see if they follow through removing data from the credit files. Hopefully they will and you'll be done and dusted. Job done.

[IceBlue]

Well Done Gary......

 

We all want Santa to bring us those letters for Xmas

[GARY68]

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

 

HALIFAX

PO BOX 718

LEEDS

LS1 9GB

xxxxxxx2009

COMPLAINT REFRENCE: xxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear xxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxxxxxxx this account remains in dispute and I have raised some points in answer to your letter,

Your version of executed agreements and mine differ greatly as you seem to be relying on the amended regulations 1983 (s1 1983/1553).As I am sure you are aware this agreement was 2002.

 

After reviewing the documentation sent in response to my Section 78 request for information relating to the above account and after Legal Advice I note what you have supplied may, or may not, comply with Section 78 of the CCA1974 but in what you have supplied you have failed to produce a document signed myself that contains the prescribed terms as per section 61(a) and section 127(3) of the CCA 1974.

 

I am also aware that there are certain terms that are required to be within the “Agreement” and should these terms be mis-stated or not present within the Original documentation then agreement can be rendered irredeemably unenforceable in law and I therefore refer you to the following of which, as a large financial organisation, I am sure you are fully aware of, If not please let me help you:

 

s61(a) CCA - Signing of agreement:

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

s127(3) CCA:

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

I understand that section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out clearly what is required to comply with my request and quote “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it” For clarification I require a copy of the agreement, any terms and conditions from the time when the agreement was executed together with a copy of current terms and conditions and a copy of the cancellation notice if the agreement refers to “Your Right to Cancel” within it. I also require a statement of account as laid out also within Section 78(1). If there weren’t any terms and conditions then please confirm this in your response

 

I am aware that the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) at Regulation 3 allows the Signature box and signature to be omitted in a copy document but the copy document must contain all the terms of the agreement contained within the signed executed original document

 

In light of the above I respectfully request that you provide a copy of the original agreement signed by myself that you hold on file and while I accept that you can omit the signature box for the purposes of compliance with my request, you will be aware that any challenge to the agreement in court would require the signed copy of the original agreement. If you still reject this, please provide clarification on the status of the Original Credit Agreement and confirm either that you hold the original signed agreement on file or a copy of it on microfiche or that you no longer hold the file.

 

Just to be certain your clear on your point raised in your previous letter ”about the consumer credit act 1974 does not prohibit collection activity when a account is in dispute”

I have never mentioned this and you must be referring to the OFT debt guidelines which as I large company such as the Halifax should realise they clearly state the rules on collection activities on disputed accounts as my last letter.

Again the lack of a credit agreement means there is a very clear dispute

I look forward to receiving the documentation requested.

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxx

Please note I have requested all communication in writing only and I have no reason to answer the telephone because of this request, threats of door step callers from a third party collector will have serious implications for the Halifax with my report to the OFT and Trading standards regarding this activity and a letter has gone out to retail collection address at the Halifax advising on this.