Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Indians, traditionally known as avid savers, are now stashing away less money and borrowing more.View the full article
    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

The great PPC debate


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 5418 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

So I have decided to start a thread to debate PRIVATE PARKING in general and the enforcement.

Private Parking and the laws (or lack of them) is always an emotive issue and with the amount of cowboy companies who have been prevented from clamping for various reasons or just see private parking as an easy way to get money does not help the image.

Private parking is here to stay and so are the companies that do it, many will come and go, the ones that do it right and enforce/win cases will stay.

I wonder, if it is possible to have a thread on here dedicated to a serious discussion, without insults from any party.

Any takers ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Put large signs stating parking is for permit holders only, the landowner will allow persons without permits to park for a charge of £100, reduced to £60 is payment made within 14days, The charge will increase to £150 + court costs if legal action is taken to recover charge. 1 charge per 24hrs can be given.

Do not park unless you agree to, and understand the conditions.

 

Car parks, Parking charge attached.

 

What is wrong with that ... Big signs of a type a reasonable person would see.

 

Do you not think the person should pay the charge if they decide to park ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Put large signs stating parking is for permit holders only, the landowner will allow persons without permits to park for a charge of £100, reduced to £60 is payment made within 14days, The charge will increase to £150 + court costs if legal action is taken to recover charge. 1 charge per 24hrs can be given.

Do not park unless you agree to, and understand the conditions.

 

Car parks, Parking charge attached.

 

What is wrong with that ... Big signs of a type a reasonable person would see.

 

Do you not think the person should pay the charge if they decide to park ?

 

 

So said permit holder parks up, unfortunately 1mm onto white line.

 

PPC can't get him for not having a permit, so decide to use this mythical new charge, parking over the white line.

 

Just behave, we all know PPC's have no place in this Country.

 

Jogs

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot of statutes and regulation that PPC have to follow to act legally and lawfully. Signage is just one small issue. Getting it right is their problem and the sooner they do act legally and lawfully the better. They would win every case ! The only small problem they have with this in my view is that their business model disappears. Why not start a 'Legal and lawful PPC' subgroup at the BPA ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that charge would not be allowed then would it, he has a permit the signage clearly states the conditions to which parking is allowed and the conditions for paying a charge.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot of statutes and regulation that PPC have to follow to act legally and lawfully. Signage is just one small issue. Getting it right is their problem and the sooner they do act legally and lawfully the better. They would win every case ! The only small problem they have with this in my view is that their business model disappears. Why not start a 'Legal and lawful PPC' subgroup at the BPA ?

 

I cant see how their business model would disappear, for a PPC to win cases in court then their case has to be strong and legally correct.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I cant see how their business model would disappear, for a PPC to win cases in court then their case has to be strong and legally correct.

 

It's commercial suicide to run a business that concentrates on taking people to court to gain income. Which is why nobody does it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I cant see how their business model would disappear, for a PPC to win cases in court then their case has to be strong and legally correct.

 

1) you could only pursue the driver under the terms of any (mythical) implied contract. How does a PPC find out who was driving? There is no obligation on the RK to offer the information, nor can the RK be pursued instead - Google: privity of contract.

 

2) In order to charge for parking in the manner that you suggest, the PPC would need to hold a contract with the landowner far and above any normal commercial contract.

 

3) Your suggested charge of £100 increasing to £150 does not even begin to be a genuine pre-estimate of losses. How would you prove to a court that you have lost £100 because X parked. This charge is so high that it would seem to me to be a penalty - specifically forbidden by case law in English contracts.

 

There's three just to get you started...

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is 2 fold, if a PPC works correctly so charges are issued correctly and once a case goes to court they have done everything correctly and win, then only totally crazy people would pay £150+ instead of £60.

 

There are plans for certain parking companies to work together for a uniform approach to the legal side (signage, tickets, letters, court paperwork).

Link to post
Share on other sites

1) you could only pursue the driver under the terms of any (mythical) implied contract. How does a PPC find out who was driving? There is no obligation on the RK to offer the information, nor can the RK be pursued instead - Google: privity of contract.

 

2) In order to charge for parking in the manner that you suggest, the PPC would need to hold a contract with the landowner far and above any normal commercial contract.

 

3) Your suggested charge of £100 increasing to £150 does not even begin to be a genuine pre-estimate of losses. How would you prove to a court that you have lost £100 because X parked. This charge is so high that it would seem to me to be a penalty - specifically forbidden by case law in English contracts.

 

There's three just to get you started...

 

1 - Civil court is on balance of probabilities, I have yet to see a genuine case where a person did not know who was driving at the time a charge was issued, I appreciate there will be occasions but certainly not the normal.

 

2 - Contracts already exist that allow the PPC to pursue parking charges on behalf of the landowner

 

3 - If parking is £100 and it states £100, why is it a penalty. Check out birmingham airport, over £250 for 24hrs in the parking area next to the terminal, designated to be drop off but if you want to stop longer then you accept it will be an expensive stay as stated on the signage.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So what you're saying is that court is not easily winnable at the moment just because of poor signage, tickets and letters?

 

Which bring me back to the fact that even if all the above was spot on AND there were fundamental changes in 100+ years of established law leading to slam dunk wins every time, a business cannot scrape by on measly court winnings and a handful of CCJs a week.

 

Unless of course it would just be tool to get these 'crazy' people to pay up out of fear.

 

Oh, hold on. That's just the current business model isn't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 - If parking is £100 and it states £100, why is it a penalty. Check out birmingham airport, over £250 for 24hrs in the parking area next to the terminal, designated to be drop off but if you want to stop longer then you accept it will be an expensive stay as stated on the signage

 

Got a link? I can only find £30 for 24 hours:

 

airport.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure Al:

 

Where to Park at Birmingham International Airport

 

 

Dropping off and picking up passengers

When dropping off passengers, use our convenient Drop & Go car park adjacent to the terminals and costing £1 for 15 minutes (£2 for 30 minutes).

 

 

I will dig out actual page that explains prices after 30mins ... it works out to be over £250 for 24hrs

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 - Civil court is on balance of probabilities, I have yet to see a genuine case where a person did not know who was driving at the time a charge was issued, I appreciate there will be occasions but certainly not the normal.

 

 

You have either misunderstood my point or have deliberately not answered.

 

I was not arguing that the RK did not know. My point was that the RK is not required - short of direct judicial instruction - to reveal the information to a PPC.

 

So how does a PPC ascertain who the driver is in order to sue the correct person.

 

If a PPC takes the RK to court and the RK can prove that he/she was not driving, then the case instantly collapses as the wrong person has been sued. The RK has plenty of way to prove that he/she was not driving at the time without having to reveal who was.

 

Even if you (misguidedly IMO) attempt to rely on the balance of probabilities being that the RK is the driver, how would you manage if the RK is a company? Obviously a compnay cannot be the driver and is not required to name the driver.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They have barriers for paying on exit don't they? This, and its designation as a drop off point, would cover any unfair contract legislation I would have thought.

 

Invoicing £250 subsequently for 24 hours in an open car park nothing to do with dropping off passenger just because the airport down the road has such a facility wouldn't wash in court.

 

In theory, yes, you could pursue Mr Smith if he left his car in your airport drop off zone for a full 24 hours. I can't see how this would happen practically though?

Link to post
Share on other sites

All the (or this) PPC has to to do is take up the challenge against a worthy opponent. re regulations, as I have posted many times see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/164651-problems-ppcs-face.html?highlight=problems+ppc+face and FAQs - PPCs - fighting back. The forces are aligned. Has anyone vet seen a letter from a BPA PPC that actually follows the CoP. ALl that advice that Trading Standards gave them willfully ignored. there is much more that could be written about the regulations etc but I will never put that on a public forum least of all one populated by the PPCs. Talk about it in the bar after the next BPA. You never know, I may be listening.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They have barriers for paying on exit don't they? This, and its designation as a drop off point, would cover any unfair contract legislation I would have thought.

 

Invoicing £250 subsequently for 24 hours in an open car park nothing to do with dropping off passenger just because the airport down the road has such a facility wouldn't wash in court.

 

In theory, yes, you could pursue Mr Smith if he left his car in your airport drop off zone for a full 24 hours. I can't see how this would happen practically though?

 

There are barriers and you are correct he would pay on exit, the point I was trying to make is the charges are on display and if he drove upto the barrier and said "this is too expensive, unfair term etc.." they would simply laugh at him point to the signs.

 

If he did not have the money they would (I presume) send an invoice to him, it went to court if unpaid and I do not see how he could have any defence and the charge would remain.

 

The same with any private car park (the location is irrelevant), if a charge is stated it should be paid and if someone does not want to pay the charge or thinks its too expensive they should have the option to remove the car and not park it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Perky on something? All these posts, it's like he's in some kind of manic phase in bipolar disorder. Still doesn't answer the questions though. First problem for PPCs, who was the driver? Second problem, is enforcement under contract law or tresspass? Third problem, if the latter how does the PPC sue as only the landowner can sue for tresspass? Fourth problem, can the PPC be sure that the court will rule that the driver (if they know who it was) saw the signage? Vine proves it can be prominent and still not seen. Fifth problem, showing the costs add up to the amount charged without being a penalty and without including court costs. Sixth problem, chasing the charge without frightening and intimidating the defendant (one of the hallmarks of a penalty). Seventh problem, even if you manage to negotiate Dunlop and penalties is it caught by UCTA? I could go on but you get the gist. That is why court action by PPCs will remain a minority sport for those who have petty vendettas to pursue but is not a realistic business. Concerted action by the PPCs will not change this. Anyone that tries to build a business on suing in court should sue for bankruptcy now. Or maybe raffle that caff.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed. Plus other legislation the PPCs fall foul of as part of their business model. When completely ignored they have no idea of their victim, is the victim a solicitor or a policeman (or related to one) ? is the victim a hard criminal (or related to one) ? etc. Something must have upset loopy/perky - maybe takings are down ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely lamma, I wonder has he hit the bottle again? Has a penchant for it I understand. Certainly the behaviour over the past few days is weird, even for Perky. Business down, caff for sale, American property underwater, who knows what's behind it. Maybe the other PPCs he has "consulted" for are saying "you told us it would be different and we are still losing". Who knows. To be honest it doesn't matter a great deal. Perky's outfit is just a minnow, with hardly a pot to **** in. Any delusions of grandeur are just that or some other personality disorder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...