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    • I'm not sure on the best option here, I'm happy to go with Tomlin, however I can afford to pay this one in full if needed and wonder whether I should be trying to get a reduced amount, perhaps in the court hallway before going in? that would require submitting a WS of some sort. What I 'like' (strong word) about TO in this instance, is that it allows me to keep my savings to hand for further accounts needing attention in the near future and I would hope gives me some control over the pcm amount.. I've read a number of TO threads now (fell to sleep at the keyboard last night ) but have a few questions please: - Do I specify the payment arrangement in a TO or the claimant? I'm thinking 20% lump upfront plus 96 months of circa 60 squid. - Who decides repayment amounts if CCJ is granted? if the judge, then do I submit I&E at any point? Given the amount of total debt across all my claims, I need to ensure anything I commit to is future proofed. I wouldn't want all my disposable income sent to this one debt, only to have another one in a month or two.
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    • Few tweaks as the run order was completely messed up and the main point of your defence (reconstituted agreement) pushed to the bottom of the statement.   I, XXXXXX, being the Defendant in this case will state as follows; I make this Witness Statement in support of my defence in this claim and further to my set aside application dated 1 November 2022. 1.The claimants witness statement confirms that it mostly relies on hearsay evidence as confirmed by the drafts in person in the opening paragraph. It is my understanding they must serve notice to any hearsay evidence pursuant to CPR 33.2(1)(B) (notice of intention to rely on hearsay evidence) and Section 2 (1) (A) of the Civil Evidence Act. 2.  I understand that the claimant is an Assignee, a buyer of defunct or bad debts, which are bought on mass portfolios at a much reduced cost to the amount claimed and which the original creditors have already wrote off as a capital loss and claimed against taxable income as confirmed in the claimants witness statement exhibit by way of the Deed of Assignment. 3. As an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights.  This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information).  The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party. 4.  I became aware of original Judgement following a routine credit check on or around 14th September 2020. 5. The alleged letter of claim dated 7 January 2020 was served to a previous address which I moved out of in 2018, no effort was made to ascertain my correct address.  I have attached a copy of my tenancy agreement which is marked ‘Appendix 1’ and shows I was residing at a difference address as of 11 December 2018 and was therefore not at the service address at the time the proceedings were served.  I have also attached an email from my solicitors to the Claimants solicitors dated 14 July 2022 which was sent to them requesting that they disclose the trace of evidence they utilised prior to issuing the proceedings against me.  This is marked ‘Appendix 2’. The claimants solicitors did not provide me with these documents. 6. Under The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims 2017 a Debt Buyer must undertake all reasonable enquiries to ensure the correct address of a debtor, this can be as simple as a credit file search. The Claimant failed to carry out such basic checks. Subsequently all letters prior to and including ,The Pre action Protocol letter of claim dated 7 January 2020 and the claim form dated 14th February 2020 were all served to a previous address which I moved out of in 2018. 7. Upon the discovery of the Judgement debt, I made immediate contact with the Court and the Claimant Solicitors, putting them on notice that I was making investigations in relation to the Judgement debt as it was not familiar to me.  I asked them to provide me with a copy of the original loan agreement but this was not provided to me.   The correspondence to the Claimant Solicitor's is attached and marked ‘Appendix 3’ 8. On (insert date) I successfully made application to set a side the judgment. The claim proceeded to allocation, 9. The claimant failed to comply with the additional directions ordered by District Judge Davis on the 2 February 2024 'The Claim shall be automatically struck out at 4pm on 3 April 2024 unless the Claimant delivers to the Court and to the Defendant the following documents.' None of these documents were received by the court nor the defendant by that date. (insert date you did receive the documents) I then sent a Data Subject Access Request to Barclays but no agreement was provided. Details the timeline of communication between myself and Barclays are attached and marked ‘Appendix 4’and the copies of correspondence between myself and Barclays are attached and marked ‘Appendix 5’. Remove irrelevant 10.The claimant relies upon and has exhibited a reconstituted version of the alleged agreement. It is again denied that I have ever entered into an agreement with Barclaycard on or around 2000.  It is admitted that I did hold other credit agreements with other creditors and as such should this be a debt that was assigned to Barclaycard from another brand therefore the reconstituted agreement disclosed is invalid being pre April 2007 and not legally enforceable pursuant to HHJ Judge Waksman in Carey v HSBC 2009 EWHC3417.  Details of this are attached and marked ‘Appendix 6’. The original credit agreement must be provided along with any reconstituted version on a modified credit agreement and must contain the names and address of debtor and creditor, agreement number and cancelation clause. 11. Therefore the claimant is put to strict proof to disclose a true executed legible agreement on which its claim relies upon and not mislead the court. 12. It is denied I have ever received a default Notice pursuant to sec 87(1) CCA1974.The claimant is put to strict proof to evidence from the original creditors internal document software the trigger of said notice.  13.   As per CPR 1.4(2)(a) the court encourages parties to cooperate with each other in the conduct of proceedings in order to try and save time and costs for the parties and to also save the time and resources of the court however, despite vast attempts at mediation the claimants have been most unreasonable and have remained unwilling to mediate. 14. Until such time the claimant can comply and disclose a true executed copy of the original assigned agreement they refer to within the particulars of this claim they are not entitled while the default continues, to enforce the agreement pursuant to section 78.6 (a) of the Credit Consumer Act 1974. I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.  I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. Signed                 ………………………………………………….. Name                  XXXX Date                     30 April 2024   Run 3 copies Court /Claimants Sol/File
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Spam Getting to Grips with Halifax.


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Hi there legal eagles,

 

It's taken a while, but I'm just getting around to sorting out the paperwork from my other creditors.

 

I have three :eek:....yes three accounts with the Halifax. A Credit Card, A loan and an overdraft.

 

I am going to dedicate this thread to the loan and would welcome some expert opinion on some of the documents I have.

 

This is a copy of the agreeement I have.

 

Halifax Loan Agreement picture by Spamalot_bucket - Photobucket

 

This is a copy of the first default notice I received.

 

Halifax Default 2007 picture by Spamalot_bucket - Photobucket

 

Extremely defective having given only 9 days from date of letter!

 

This is a copy of a letter from a DCA demanding full payment dated 2 days after default remedy time.

 

Albion 'Termination' picture by Spamalot_bucket - Photobucket

 

And here is another default from Halifax EXACTLY a year later....still defective as yet again only a 9 day remedy! :lol:

 

Halifaxdefault2008.jpg picture by Spamalot_bucket - Photobucket

 

This account was eventually passed to Blair Oliver and Scott and I've been making arranged payments to them for a while but having just got around to actually READING the corres I've got :oops: I am wondering whether they really have the right to demand payment etc.

 

Any advice welcomed. Bearing in mind these toerags have been updating my credit file on the back of these dodgy defaults!!

 

Thank you Spam. :)

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They say money talks......mine just keeps saying "Goodbye"

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Okey dokie... Bad news :( and good news :D

 

The bad news is that the agreement looks enforceable as it has the prescribed terms for a loan. :eek:

 

The APR on it is wrong - they have underquoted it, as it should be 9.332%, not 8.8%. This means the interest rate is wrong and not within the permissible tolerances under the regulations; :rolleyes:

 

Permissible tolerances in disclosure of the APR

 

1A. For the purposes of these Regulations, it shall be sufficient compliance with the requirement to show the APR if there is included in the document

 

(1) a rate which exceed the APR by not more than one; or

 

(2) a rate which falls short of the APR by not more than 0.1; or

(3) in a case to which either of paragraphs 2 or 3 below applies, a rate determined in accordance with the paragraph or such of them as apply to that case."

 

The agreement is unenforceable due to s.60(1)/s.61(a) and s.127(3).

 

Good times.

 

You've already highlighted the Default Notice issues, but that is always secondary to holding a compliant agreement anyway. The agreement is incapble of being Defaulted/Terminated under the Act, as it was improperly executed and is irrevocably unenforceable. The fact they've Terminated, means it's unlawful.

 

The Defaults on your CRA file should be removed, as a result of all this.

 

I have a feeling they won't give up so easily, though.

 

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Thanks Car.:) very much appreciated

 

I shall now put my seatbelt on and look forward to a bumpy ride! But how to start I'm not so sure.

 

Do I just withold payment and wait for them to chase me and go from there? Or should I go straight on the offensive demanding they remove my defaults..

 

Sorry to need spoon feeding, but I've my head in the sand for so long I can't make a decision.:oops: I've only just made a payment to them so I have at least a month before they start bothering me, so any suggestions re my next move would be gratefully received.

 

Cheers, Spam. :)

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I'm really embarassed about this but...

 

How did you work out the APR?

 

for the life of me I can't see how you get it... never was much use at maths ;)

 

I Keep looking at the agreement and seeing the monthly rate of 0.69% and timesing that by 12 for APR I make it 8.28% thats still not the 8.8% as quoted but it's not much different.

 

Where do you get the 9.332% from please?

 

Cheers, Spam:)

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Thanks Elsa...

 

Just raining on my own parade at the minute 'cause I can't work out how Car got that interest rate. :confused:

 

Hope someone will be along soon to put me out of my misery. ;)

 

Spam:)

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I'm really embarassed about this but...

 

How did you work out the APR?

 

for the life of me I can't see how you get it... never was much use at maths ;)

 

I Keep looking at the agreement and seeing the monthly rate of 0.69% and timesing that by 12 for APR I make it 8.28% thats still not the 8.8% as quoted but it's not much different.

 

Where do you get the 9.332% from please?

 

Cheers, Spam:)

 

To be honest, I ignored the monthly interest rate as an APR is stated and it should be accurate.

 

Use any APR calculator and input the loan amount and the APR and repayment period and it will show you it's wrong.

 

Try these;

 

Loan & APR Calculator

 

Loan calculator

 

If the APR is misstated beyond the permissable tolerances, their donkey is filleted :)

 

EDIT: Oh, the reason you don't times the monthly interest rate by 12, is that it will be compounded monthly - so interest from month 2 will be less than month 3, but more than month 1. If you don't compound the monthly rate, it comes to 8.46% annually, but the APR is the cost of borrowing over a 12 month period. (Including compound interest)

 

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Thanks Chris,

 

I've been on the loan calculator and worked out this so far....bear with me please..

 

13000 over 7 yrs at 8.8% = £205.64 pm

total = £17273.58

int. £4273.58

on top of that there was £130 arrangement fee

£130/84 =£1.55 add to 205.64 = 207.19pm

 

 

so I tried £ 13130 x 8.8% which gave me

 

£207.69 pm

£17446.30total

£4316.32 int Still not what the agreement states:(

 

The closest I got was £13130 x @ 8.95% to give a monthly payment of £208.61, £17523.32 total repay and £4393.32 int.

 

But it's still not

 

£208.86 pm

Loan £13000

total charges £4544.24 (including £130 arrangement fee)

Total to pay £17544.24

 

Is it still enough discrepency to make it unenforceable or is it inside the tolerances?

 

The calculater gave up on me when I tried to work out the last option. I'm still not sure if they're charging interest on the arrangement fee or whether they added it after they'd calculated interest.....

 

Got it working again...tried 13000 @ 9% apr came close but still not exact... £206.85pm + £1.55pm arrangement fee = £208.40

Total to pay £17375.26 (+130 = £17505.26)

Interest £4375.26 ( + 130 = £4505.26)

 

Gawd my head hurts!!! Think I need to go and lie down. :)

 

Thanks, Spam

Edited by Spamalot
Addition... Literally

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They say money talks......mine just keeps saying "Goodbye"

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The agreement states that the acceptance fee was added to the total charge for credit, so it should be included in the total interest.

 

As they have misstated by more than 0.1% under the APR, that makes the interest rate (in fact, the total charge for credit will be misstated as well!) wrong, so therefore unenforceable.

 

I'm no maths man (it's the reason I manage people, not numbers!) but either way I've done it, it's still wrong...

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Thanks again Chris, sorry for being such a pedantic pain in the proverbial!

 

Consider your scales well and truly tipped! :D

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Thanks again Chris, sorry for being such a pedantic pain in the proverbial!

 

Consider your scales well and truly tipped! :D

 

Not pedantic at all - if this goes further, you need to know what you need to know to be successful.

 

In that vain, I've asked the site team to double check my figures and just make sure we're all on the same page with this one! :D

 

[Don't let it be said I'm doubting myself, of course :eek:]

 

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I have had a look at teh figures using Dualcalc:

 

£13000 payable as 84 payments of £205.64 is indeed 8.8% with interest of £4273.76. TCC is this plus £130.00 giving £4403.76

 

Getting the rate of interest wrong would make the agreement not properaly executed as rate of interest is a prescribed term in schedule 1 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983.

 

However, it would not make the agreement unenforceable as rate of interest is not a prescribe term in schedule 6 if both the payement amount and number of payments is given, as in your case.

 

 

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Bugga... See, this is why I don't get too excited - I'm not known for being wrong, but... (Note to self, sort Dualcalc access out)

 

Anyhoo, doesn't really matter as the Default/Termination issues are fatal anyway... :p

 

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Bugga... See, this is why I don't get too excited - I'm not known for being wrong, but... (Note to self, sort Dualcalc access out)

 

Anyhoo, doesn't really matter as the Default/Termination issues are fatal anyway... :p

 

There's more than one way to fillet a donkey... ;-):eek::p

 

Thanks for your input Steven/ Chris

 

Onwards and upwards.

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They say money talks......mine just keeps saying "Goodbye"

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Okey dokie... Bad news :( and good news :D

 

The bad news is that the agreement looks enforceable as it has the prescribed terms for a loan. :eek:

 

The APR on it is wrong - they have underquoted it, as it should be 9.332%, not 8.8%. This means the interest rate is wrong and not within the permissible tolerances under the regulations; :rolleyes:

 

 

 

The agreement is unenforceable due to s.60(1)/s.61(a) and s.127(3).

 

Good times.

 

You've already highlighted the Default Notice issues, but that is always secondary to holding a compliant agreement anyway. The agreement is incapble of being Defaulted/Terminated under the Act, as it was improperly executed and is irrevocably unenforceable. The fact they've Terminated, means it's unlawful.

 

The Defaults on your CRA file should be removed, as a result of all this.

 

I have a feeling they won't give up so easily, though.

 

even more good news

 

the second DN did not give you 9 days it only gave you 5 days!

 

20th March 2008 was a thursday

 

if posted 20th the effective date of service would be Monday 24th March

 

that gave you 25/26/27/28/29 = 5 days

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Hi Spamalot:)

This thread is fascinating!

I never thought to double check my APR etc..just done a quicky and I appear to have been paying £10 a month too much..adding over £1000 to the total loan!

I'll start my own thread and get it assessed properly, if I may

Looking good for you :)

Elsa x

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Hi Spamalot:)

This thread is fascinating!

I never thought to double check my APR etc..just done a quicky and I appear to have been paying £10 a month too much..adding over £1000 to the total loan!

I'll start my own thread and get it assessed properly, if I may

Looking good for you :)

Elsa x

 

Good luck with that Elsa, I'd only be paying an extra £140 so it's not as bad as yours! Let me know when you start your thread. ;-)

 

Ok, Back to being a dummie..:rolleyes:

 

We've established that the agreement is enforceable even though it has been improperly executed with incorrect interest rate quoted. As this is my copy I shall send off a CA request anyway and see whether they've got one as well :p

 

Now the burning question with regards to termination..

 

Can the agreement be terminated by a DCA instructed by Halifax asking for the full amount, or must the demand come from Halifax themselves?

 

The answer to this question will also be pertinent to my credit card thread (to be started soon)as I have exactly the same situation there....dodgy default...DCA asking for full amount

 

Thank you,

Cheers, Spam

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They say money talks......mine just keeps saying "Goodbye"

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Nope, we've established that the agreement is not irredeemably unenforceable under s.127(3) as the rate of interest isn't a prescribed term for this type of agreement. Fair do's. That doesn't mean that it is automatically enforceable, though, as it is improperly executed and could be unenforceable under s.127(1)(i) if, and it's a big if, you were prejudiced as a result of the improper execution. Now, if this was me, plus should it be true, etc, etc, I'd be seriously reconsidering the position I was in when I took this loan out - if I didn't have a chance to compare this loan with others, if I did consider other loans by comparing APR stated, etc, I would think you have a decent case for showing you were prejudiced enough to not have the agreeement enforced against you. :p

 

To answer your question - it really depends on the Judge. I think the agreement was terminated after the 1st Default Notice was issued and you didn't comply with it, but they didn't send you a Termination Notice. The fact they then get a DCA on to the debt, indicates, according to the ICO, that the agreement was at an end. The 2nd Default Notice is just a bonus, as they can't Default the same account twice, IMHO, if you read the wording of s.87/s.88 CCA 1974 - and indeed can't Terminate twice if you read s.98 of the same. The fact the DCA is asking for the full amount, rather than just the arrears, also indicates full Default/Termination, IMHO...

 

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The fact the DCA is asking for the full amount, rather than just the arrears, also indicates full Default/Termination, IMHO...

 

hi spam,

i think car is absolutely rite, this is termination. once they ask for the full amount they are no longer allowing you a future credit agreement and have therefore ended that which preceeded. BRW has waxed lyrical in very lucid terminology on this issue on several threads, making it easy to understand. he has espoused the unlikely (but possible) example where a DCA could, in theory, continue a credit agreement if the default was remedied, but on asking for the full amount that eventuality disappears.

 

post #33 by BRW here may help:

amex Stat Demand, what to do ? - Page 2 - The Consumer Forums

 

im sure u have seen it but this is another thread worth a trawl:

A Tale of a Dodgy DN - The Consumer Forums

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hi spam,

i think car is absolutely rite, this is termination. once they ask for the full amount they are no longer allowing you a future credit agreement and have therefore ended that which preceeded. BRW has waxed lyrical in very lucid terminology on this issue on several threads, making it easy to understand. he has espoused the unlikely (but possible) example where a DCA could, in theory, continue a credit agreement if the default was remedied, but on asking for the full amount that eventuality disappears.

 

post #33 by BRW here may help:

amex Stat Demand, what to do ? - Page 2 - The Consumer Forums

 

im sure u have seen it but this is another thread worth a trawl:

A Tale of a Dodgy DN - The Consumer Forums

 

Thanks for looking R&B,

 

Sometimes I just don't trust my own judgement! Started to doubt myself when it was a DCA who demanded payment in full on behalf of Halifax... not Halifax themselves and I wondered if that was 'legally binding' could Halifax backpeddle and say ' oooh naughty DCA we didn't ask them to do that!

 

Looking for belt and braces again... you know me ;-)

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ur doin a pretty gd job spam, id trust u. i wudnt trust the judgment of a financial institution again tho :rolleyes:

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Good luck with that Elsa, I'd only be paying an extra £140 so it's not as bad as yours! Let me know when you start your thread. ;-)

 

Ok, Back to being a dummie..:rolleyes:

 

We've established that the agreement is enforceable even though it has been improperly executed with incorrect interest rate quoted. As this is my copy I shall send off a CA request anyway and see whether they've got one as well :p

 

Now the burning question with regards to termination..

 

Can the agreement be terminated by a DCA instructed by Halifax asking for the full amount, or must the demand come from Halifax themselves?

 

The answer to this question will also be pertinent to my credit card thread (to be started soon)as I have exactly the same situation there....dodgy default...DCA asking for full amount

 

Thank you,

Cheers, Spam

 

halifax are bound by the words and deeds of anyone acting on their behalf!

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