Naughtypanther vs HSBC

[naughtypanther]

Hi everybody,

 

my name is panther, and I am here because I am about to start spanking the bad people at HSBC. I have been reading on the forum for a couple of months (since a friend opened my eyes), and have decided to take action. I find lots of great info, not to mention moral support on here, so thanks to you all already : )

 

Anyhoo, my situation:

 

1 credit card, at just under £6000, 1 overdraft at £1500. I don't use either account, they are just debts I pay every month, and I have a seperate 'safe' account with another bank.

 

I would like to make the credit card disappear entirely, but am happy to pay the overdraft. I've tried (in branch and over the phone) to get them to right off the CC debt, and freeze the interest on the overdraft, obviously that didn't work but there was nothing lost in asking.

 

So my next step is:

 

CCA request on the CC, and request they freeze the interest on the overdraft and allow me to make smaller payments to clear the debt (in writing).

 

1st question: If the CC goes 'in dispute' and I stop making payments, should I be worried about them taking money from my overdrawn account to pay my CC bill? If so, what could I do with the overdrawn account to prevent this?

 

I'll post up the letter I will send requesting they give me some breathing space with the overdraft, hopefully you guys and girls will help me improve on it before I send it out.

 

Hoping to help and be helped, thanks for reading, NaughtyPanther

[johnnymitch]

Hi Naughtypanther , welcome to the forum

 

I feel that maybe you've got the wrong idea about the site - it's not for assisting people who actually owe the money ,- having spent it and enjoyed the benefits of it - to evade their responsibilities.

 

It's for those who are genuinely being overcharged for a variety of occurences on their accounts, charges which are believed to be excessive.

 

Having said that, if you are finding difficulty in repaying the current monthly installments there is no harm in asking for these to be re-scheduled - but be careful that they don't offer you a Managed Loan to clear it all off ..... therein lies disaster

 

And of course , you are entitled to ask (via SAR or CCA) for details of your agreement . If they can't produce that , come back and ask for more advice ...... someone will answer - and we're user-friendly

[naughtypanther]

Hi Johnny, thanks for the super quick response & welcome

 

Fair comment you make about evading reponsibilities etc, I feel I should probably clarify my situation.

 

Being self employed in a recession, my income is now much lower and much less stable than it was 12 months ago. I find myself in a position where I have struggled to make minimum payments for nearly 12 months, and the debt has not changed. I bet many people reading this are in a similar situation.

 

I have tried to re arrange the debts and have the interest frozen, which would allow me to realistically (if slowly) clear the debt. I think HSBC have a duty to try and help, but they have chosen not to, and can only offer me an increased overdraft (responsible lender?) or a managed loan (I'm trying to reduce my debt, not increase it:p). So I have little choice but than to challenge the credit card agreement, if only to give me temporary breathing space with my limited and irregular income.

 

I won't go into how much money HSBC have made from me in the last 6 years (the 6K on the card is probably all interest), and I won't go into the methods they used to try and sell me PPI (if I was recording the conversation the lady would have been sacked).

 

They could have helped me out without being out of pocket themselves, but as we all know, this is not how many banks like to operate. So here I am :grin:

 

I'll post back up here when I get my first response.

 

Thanks again,

 

panther

[johnnymitch]

Thanks for the clarification panther, I see where you're coming from now . Trying to give yourself a bit of breathing space ...

 

I'll look for your post when you get a reply and myself or someone else on the forum can try to advise from there......

[Rayne]

 

I think HSBC have a duty to try and help, but they have chosen not to, and can only offer me an increased overdraft (responsible lender?) or a managed loan (I'm trying to reduce my debt, not increase it:p).

 

 

HSBC through and through - I challenged them in branch on this one, ie why not increase o'd temporarily to allow some breathing space to be told they were unable to do this being a "responsible lender", so the next question which naturally followed was "what part of slapping £150 of unlawful charges is being a responsible lender?" to be told it was HSBC policy...the fallout made the local paper lol

[naughtypanther]

Hi people,

 

Yeah Rayne, they tell whatever story suits them,

 

anyhoo, an update:

 

I posted the following letter (registered mail) at the end of June, 12+2 days has now passed with no response.

 

"

1 Panther Street

The Zoo

UK

 

HSBC BANK PLC

8 CANADA SQUARE

LONDON

E14 5HQ

 

29 June 2009

Dear Sir/Madam

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I enclose a payment of £1 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I understand a copy of any credit agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account under these sections of the Act.

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

Naughty Panther

"

 

 

I'm about to prepare my response, which I will post up here first in the hope of some suggestions from you good people. Also I will write a seperate letter about freezing the interest on the overdraft.

 

Back in a bit,

 

Panther

[johnnymitch]

Hi Panther , welcome back

 

How about something like :

 

CCA Call-up letter

Reference ....... (your letter of xx xxx xx)

I am disappointed that you have failed to respond to my request for a copy of my Credit agreement to which I am entitled under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79). A copy of this letter is attached for your convenience.

I have previously enclosed a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

I understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

I am sure you also understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

Failure to respond positively will be reported to the Financial Ombudsman Service and the Office of Fair Trading.

Yours faithfully

You could add :

"PLEASE NOTE that unless otherwise stated by yourselves and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be CONFIRMED that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec) "

Edited July 16, 2009 by johnnymitch
Oops ! finger slipped lol!

[naughtypanther]

That WAS fast, thanks for that

 

I am sending the following letter on Monday:

 

 

1 Panther Street

The Zoo

UK

 

HSBC BANK PLC

8 CANADA SQUARE

LONDON

E14 5HQ

 

20 July 2009

Reference: My letter of 30th June 2009, regarding credit card account: 1234567891011121

Dear Sir/Madam

I wrote to you recently to request a copy of my credit agreement, to which I am entitled under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79). A copy of this letter is attached for your convenience.

I am disappointed that you have failed to respond to my request for a copy of my Credit agreement, either with the documents requested, or at the very least with confirmation that you have received and understood my request.

I understand a copy of this credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

I am sure you also understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

As a result of your inaction, I must make it clear to you that THIS ACCOUNT IS NOW IN DISPUTE, and as such you MUST HOLD ALL ACTION on the account. You MUST NOT make any requests for payment, and you MUST NOT add any charges or interest to this account.

PLEASE NOTE that unless otherwise stated by yourselves and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be CONFIRMED that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec).

Failure to respond positively, within 14 days from the date at the head of this letter, will be reported to the Financial Ombudsman Service and the Office of Fair Trading.

I look forward to your swift response, so that we can move forward in bringing this matter to a satisfactory conclusion.

Yours faithfully

 

Naughty Panther

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any thoughts? I thought they would at least have tried to fob me off, but the letter is now 3 weeks old, and they havent responded at all. How unprofessional.

[johnnymitch]

Personally , NP , I would have sent it to the Data Protection Branch to start with , - Canada Square have probably had to send it on , or maybe neglected to send it on .

 

However, as you dealt with them for your first letter , it may be best to stick with that for the call-up ......

 

Nevertheless, if you want to go the direct route , send a copy of your letter to :

 

UK Data Protection Compliance

HSBC Bank plc

Griffin House

4-01, 41 Silver Street Head

Sheffield

S1 3GG

[naughtypanther]

Hi Johhnymitch (and all),

 

sounds like you're right about the address, I searched the forum for a list of appropriate addresses I found once, but couldn't find it, so I had to send it to Canada Square.

 

It's a non issue now, as I received a nice letter from a Ms Packwood (sure i have seen than name on this forum before). So all correspondence will now be directed towards this poor lady.

 

It goes like this:

 

(letter removed to clean up the thread, as it is irrelevant now, see below)

 

I will draught up a response up and post it here tomorrow probably, this will echo the first 2 letters I sent, I will include a copy of each. Curiously, the account is still accesible online, even though they say it is closed.

 

2 Questions for you knowledgable people:

 

1) Should I return the card as requested? Seems correct to me..

2) 6 weeks after my first CCA request, nothing. Who should I report this to, and who should I threaten to report this to?

 

edit:I reread my second letter and know now who i'm reporting them to.

 

Also, should have clarified: I have now sent 2 cca requests, but the only letter i have had is a response to me stopping paying money in.

 

Will post up my next response shortly

 

Much love

 

Panther

Edited August 14, 2009 by naughtypanther
clean up thread: irrelevant letter removed

[naughtypanther]

So then,

 

today I receive a direct response to my cca request. Ms Packwood is saved, and Ms Govier now has the pleasure of dealing with me. (part of me feels pity for them, but I keep that part of me locked in a box away from the controls )

 

The first response in just under 8 weeks goes like this:

 

 

"

Dear Mr Panther

 

I write to acknowledge your recent request for information relating to sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Unfortunately, you have omitted to sign your letter. May I ask you please to submit fresh instructions ensuring your letter is signed. The bank policy is to establish the identity of the customer via a signature such that it can be compared with any other document (e.g. application) that we may hold. I apologise for the inconvenience this may cause you.

 

Yours, yada yada,

 

Customer Resolutions Manager

 

"

 

 

 

My response so far:

 

"

Dear Ms Govier,

Thank you for your recent response, regarding my request for a copy of my credit card agreement.

I will not be submitting a fresh request with my signature because, regardless of HSBC policy, this is simply not necessary. I fail to see why lack of a signature is seen as a good reason to avoid your obligations when HSBC has no problem issuing credit cards, debit cards, PIN numbers, bank statements etc. to the same address I have been registered at for over 2 years.

 

I wish to point out that my initial request for the credit agreement was made over 8 weeks ago, whereas the law clearly states that you have 14 days to respond. The law also states that if the credit agreement request is not satisfied within 40 days the bank has committed an offence. It is unnerving that an international bank would choose to act in this way. Furthermore, this adds substance to the many horror stories I have read of HSBC acting entirely unprofessionally, going against both the Banking Code, and the relevant laws, on a daily basis. Given this breach, I think my mistrust of HSBC is warranted, and therefore my decision to not provide you with a signature is justified.

To clarify my position: My request for a copy of my credit card agreement, as per the 2 letters I have already sent to HSBC,still stands unsatisfied. Since the 5th of July 2009, YOU MUST CONSIDER THIS ACCOUNT TO BE IN DISPUTE. As such you MUST HOLD ALL ACTION on the account. You MUST NOT make any requests for payment, and you MUST NOT add any charges or interest to this account.

I have allowed HSBC a lot of tolerance so far in this matter, and have been disappointed by the lack of satisfactory response. I will extend this tolerance further by allowing another 14 days for you to respond. Failure to respond positively by 1st September 2009 will leave me no other choice but to move towards taking this matter to the courts.

I look forward to your response.

Yours faithfully,

Naughty Panther

 

"

 

You good people got any suggestions? Anything I could add/remove/change?

 

Naughtypanther

[Old Cogger]

Slow down Panther, too much haste in your letter, criminal offence I believe is no longer used and been amended and some of your comments can or possibly effect any other party trying to claim, wait for more knowledgable member to come along, AND LISTEN TO THE EXPERIANCED people to deal with HSBC, I hope the comments are taken as they are given as ADVICE.

[naughtypanther]

You're probably right Mike, all comments welcome, thanks

 

Just a little miffed they are supposed to respond within days, but after nearly 2 months all I get is fobbed off. I need to know how to lean on them really, not keen on them playing the no signature trick for the next 12 months

[Old Cogger]

O.K. that no signature trick is just a delaying tactic, there was a thread by someone who challenged HSBC on th same subject to such extent he even refused to go to local branch to supply signature, eventually delivery of SAR was to his home obtained minus signature, cannot remember actual tread, it is there somewhere or use anti tamper from file. Somebody should be along soon and help on this subject.

[naughtypanther]

Hi Mike,

 

yeah, its a common tactic for sure. But as long as they are using it, in their eyes they are justified in not freezing the account, adding interest, penalties and marks against my credit file, etc. This is harrasement, as this would cause many people to become stressed, fearing things will backfire, and then simply giving in (not happening here, panthers don't fear bankers).

 

It's more than a delaying tactic, it's a pressure tactic. A professional operation (such as a bank!!! ) would have guidelines that would prevent use of these tactics. I have no problem making this point in court either, it would do HSBC no favours.

 

Re my situation, HSBC are already 6 weeks over due (and counting) in delivering my CCA, I need to start to squeezing immediately. As has been demonstrated before (echoed by yourself Mike), lack of signature isn't a valid excuse for not supplying. I am already writing to the FOS and OFT. Court is my only option now. Remember, this is just to see my CCA, nothing more, nothing less. To HSBC right now, time is power, I can't afford to give them any more 'power' than they are reasonably due.

 

Hoping somebody with a lot of experience in this position can chip in and help me here, I feel that letters like this should be short and sweet, and I don't think mine is. I think I should be coming from a different angle perhaps.

 

I will try and trim the same letter back, making it less aggressive, just echoing my original request and reminding them of their obligations by law.

 

Thanks Mike, and all who are reading, hope by the end of this thread it will be a useful reference for others.

 

Naughty Panther

Edited August 16, 2009 by naughtypanther
spellign mistake (hit the wrong button with my paw)

[johnnymitch]

Hi NP .... it sounds to me like you are now in a similr position to Lee32uk .

 

If you have a read of his thread (quite a long one, but very informative) , it may give you an idea of where to go from here .....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/188794-hsbc-cca-non-compliance.html

 

and of course , come back and ask if you're in any doubt ..

[naughtypanther]

Hi Johhnymitch,

 

yeah I have read the lee32uk one. Read lots on here, but it doesn't all sink in straight away. Will go and have another look through that one this afternoon, will probably make more sense to me now i am starting to get my head round it all.

 

Also, just found the excellent letter in the "letter from green & co solicitor". Presumably produced by a solicitor, that has TEETH!

 

Thanks Johhnymitch, I will be reposting every time i have a letter to send, so you guys can make sure I aren't going to shoot myself in the foot!!

 

NP

[naughtypanther]

Hi again,

 

got an update on my situation with HSBC.

 

I adapted and sent the green and co solicitor letter several weeks ago. Seeing as the sticking point was my not providing a signature, I offered to collect the CCA from the branch, where I could provide a passport, driving license etc for ID. I gave them 3 weeks to do this, and nothing happened.

 

Until yesterday. I received a final demand, they are still adding interest, and they are threatening use of courts and debt collectors.

 

Should I move quickly and take them to court now? I do not want them taking me to court surely, even though they are out of line.

 

Also, part of my last letter stated that i wanted this to be considered a formal complaint. Had nothing back about this either. Is it worth passing copies of all the letters to their complaints department, and asking them kindly to apologise and put ms packwood on a leash?

 

All help gratefully received at this point as the stress level is increasing, I am considering going beyond getting the account wiped, and actually bringing a case for damages due to stress etc.

 

thanks, Naughtypanther

Edited October 16, 2009 by naughtypanther
speling

[johnnymitch]

If they haven't produced the CCA .... they're in breach of the act , particularly as you offered to prove your ID at the local branch ....

 

Chances are they have'nt got the agreement .... and they're trying to frighten you with all this bumph about courts and DCAs ...... they can't go to court without an agreement . and if they have one they're in breach of the Data Protection Act by not providing you with a copy ...

 

I think I'd write and tell them that they still haven't complied with your previous requests for the CCA .... and until they do , or confirm (as per # 8

that they haven't got it ..... then they cannot take any of the actions they are threatening .

[johnnymitch]

Sorry NP . I meant to add :

 

I am considering going beyond getting the account wiped, and actually bringing a case for damages due to stress etc.

..

 

I can see where you're coming from , but proving damages due to stress is a difficult road to go down .... so,if you do decide to try it , best to keep it on it's own , so that it doesn't complicate your current case ......

 

It's a different claim altogether IMHO....... Personally, I'd say , try not to let them wind you up .... that's their aim in life ... to threaten and put pressure on you so you give in ...... treat it cooly - they're not going home at night worrying about you ..... why should you worry about them ...

[Castlebest]

try not to let them wind you up .... that's their aim in life ... to threaten and put pressure on you so you give in ...... treat it cooly - they're not going home at night worrying about you ..... why should you worry about them ...

 

Johnny has a very good point there, its a game of chicken but its loaded in your favour you will have to trust us until they give in and you prove it for yourself... but its just a game and you will win in the end

 

pete

[naughtypanther]

Guys, thats sound advice there, & helps keep my chin up. As you both say, I know it is just a game to them. I am one of hundreds that they are juggling like this, and I shouldn't lose any sleep.

 

However, I know courts arent 100% solid, and I know bankers will try these things on, legal or not. Worst case scenario of them actually taking me to court (even though they technically can't) and the judge missing the facts (even though technically he/she shouldn't) and going in their favour, is what concerns me.

 

I will not give in, and the more dirty tricks they use the stronger my resolve to beat them (in a legal sense). I just know it is important that I stay switched on and respond to their actions in the correct manner.

 

I will start dropping complaints to the FOC etc now, have threatened it but not yet done it.

 

It's been 3 months now, so I think I need to put this matter in court asap.

 

Would you agree that another letter pointing out clearly the facts and why they are out of line, then a court application?

 

Regards, naughtypanther

[vint1954]

hi panther,

 

They will keep you hanging around until you provede a signature. It took me 4-5 months of arguments on the signature point, useing everything that I could think of. In the end I signed it in such a way, that it could have been signed by Mr M mouse. This pleased their small brains, and they responded within days.

 

What they sent was a request form, filled in by themselves, wrong spelling of name, wrong date of birth etc and dated 11 years after the account was opened.

 

You have to understand that they do not play by the rules or law of the land. To put it simply, the people that deal with these requests and disputes, just don't understand it.

 

If you want a copy of your agreement, just put an altered signature on the letter, Tell them that this latest letter does not alter the statutory time limit and that they remain in default, but here is your signature. Court could be costly.

[naughtypanther]

Hi Vint,

 

signature is not an issue any more, I offered to collect the data in branch, providing passport etc for ID. I know most people resist doing this, I dont have a problem with it though. Stops them dead in their tracks playing the signature game.

 

As it stands they now have zero excuse for providing me with the CCA. Cant see what is left now but court action (this is simply to see my CCA, or force HSBC to admit that it doesnt exist and then force them to close the account and remove all relevant data from their records and my credit files).

 

Cheers, NP

[vint1954]

Hi Vint,

 

signature is not an issue any more, I offered to collect the data in branch, providing passport etc for ID. I know most people resist doing this, I dont have a problem with it though. Stops them dead in their tracks playing the signature game.

 

As it stands they now have zero excuse for providing me with the CCA. Cant see what is left now but court action (this is simply to see my CCA, or force HSBC to admit that it doesnt exist and then force them to close the account and remove all relevant data from their records and my credit files).

 

Cheers, NP

Don't want to burst your bubble, but I tried that one. All the time that there is a signature issue, they will maintain that it is you holding up the issue. Only speaking from experience.