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DVLA £80.00 penalty on a car I sold in Feb 2008!


jb1987
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Hi all,

 

I'm being perused by the DVLA to pay an £80.00 penalty for failing to tax a vehicle I haven’t owned since 9th February 2008.

The Agency is denying receipt of the vehicle disposal notification (V5C) that I posted to them in February 2008 and therefore, on their records I am still the registered keeper and still liable for the £80.00 penalty. No doubt its in their financial interest to 'not receve' the odd disposal notification or SORN.

Fortunately, I kept a colour photocopy of the V5C for my own records with the declaration of sale signed by both myself and the new keeper. I sent this to the DVLA to prove my case but they are still asking for the £80.00 penalty!

Surly a photocopy of the signed V5C is ‘concrete proof’ of sale?

In the DVLA’s most recent letter (looks very much like a standard copy & paste job of a letter) they state “The Agency issues an acknowledgement letter on receipt of disposal notifications and SORN declarations. Information on disposal of a vehicle is available on the Vehicle Registration Certificate (V5C). If a keeper cannot provide a copy of a valid acknowledgement letter issued by DVLA for a SORN or disposal notice, dated prior to commencement of enforcement proceedings he/she has no defence against the enforcement action”. Is this just the opinion of the DVLA or does this mean that legally I have no defence against the enforcement action?

I'm writing to the current keeper of the vehicle, who is a trader by the way, to get wriiten confirmation from them of the sale date.

I need some advice to let me know where I stand legally in all this and what to do next.

Thanks,

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Hi. The DVLA are wrong to say that you have no defence. There is no legal requiremeent for you to chase up an acknowledgement letter after notifying them of a change of keeper. You have done what you are legally obliged to do. Write back to them stating this, and tell them that you are prepared to defend this in Court.

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If I told you you owed me £100 but you didn't believe me, so I put it in writing to you that you definately owed me a £100 would you believe me now?

 

Thought not.

 

So why would you believe you owe the DVLA £80 because they sent you a letter saying you definately do? ;)

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Thanks for the help guys.

 

I'll write a letter back to them, I know what their reply will be though. So court it is then, I'll keep updating this thread.

 

Thanks,

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You will probably find that they will reply stating that they still believe that you owe the £80. If this happens just write back and say that as you cannot come to an agreement that it would be best settled by a Court Hearing. More often than not, they back down. Update us on all developments.

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Let us know if you hear from the new owner.

As they posts above state, call their bluff, but backing it up with another copy of the V5C, along with a copy of a letter from the new registered keeper should be enough.

I take it that the person you sold the car to didn't send his part off, because that would also be proof.

Please note that although my advice is offered, you should consult your legal representative before taking ANY action.

 

 

have a nice day !!

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Let us know if you hear from the new owner.

As they posts above state, call their bluff, but backing it up with another copy of the V5C, along with a copy of a letter from the new registered keeper should be enough.

I take it that the person you sold the car to didn't send his part off, because that would also be proof.

 

There is no requirement for the new keeper to send his part off.

 

He should receive a new V5C in his name automatically. If you know who the new owner is, it may be worth checking to see if he has a V5C

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Go to your local Mag's court with the v5c copy and speak to the clerk to the justices. Ask to be allowed to swear a statutory declaration that you disposed on the car, as proved by the v5c copy (that should be done foc). The mag will sign it and then this should be forwarded to the DVLA - action should cease then.

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The following defines the statutory requirements for Change of keeper

Change of keeper: registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper not a vehicle trader

22. - (1) This regulation applies where -

(a) there is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;

(b) a vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and

© the new keeper is not a vehicle trader.

(2) The registered keeper of the vehicle -

(a) if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and

(b) shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following -

(i) the name and address of the new keeper;

(ii) the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;

(iii) a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and

(iv) a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.

Change of keeper: obligations of registered keeper where vehicle registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper a vehicle trader

23. - (1) Subject to regulation 24, this regulation applies where -

(a) there is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;

(b) the person disposing of the vehicle is the registered keeper;

© a vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and

(d) the new keeper is a vehicle trader.

(2) The registered keeper shall forthwith notify the Secretary of State, on that part of the registration document which relates to the transfer to a vehicle trader, or otherwise in writing, of the following -

(a) the name and address of the vehicle trader;

(b) the date on which the vehicle was transferred to the vehicle trader;

© a declaration signed by the registered keeper that he transferred the vehicle to the vehicle trader on the date specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (b); and

(d) a declaration signed by the vehicle trader that the vehicle was transferred to him on the date specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (b).

(3) If the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, the registered keeper shall deliver to the vehicle trader those parts of it not required to be sent to the Secretary of State under paragraph (2).

Change of keeper: obligations of vehicle traders where registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24 March 1997

24. - (1) This regulation applies where a vehicle trader becomes the keeper of a vehicle in respect of which a vehicle registration document has been issued in Great Britain on or after 24 March 1997.

(2) Where this regulation applies the vehicle trader shall, on or before the appropriate date and on that part of the registration document which relates to a change of keeper or otherwise in writing, notify the Secretary of State as to -

(a) the transfer of the vehicle to him; and

(b) the date on which he became the keeper of the vehicle.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (2) the appropriate date is whichever is the earliest of -

(a) the day on which the vehicle trader first uses, or permits the use of, the vehicle on a public road otherwise than under a trade licence;

(b) the day on which he first keeps the vehicle on such a road;

© the day immediately following the expiration of the period of three months ("the three months period of grace") beginning with the day after the date on which the vehicle was last kept by a person who was not a vehicle trader.

(4) Where this regulation applies and the vehicle trader transfers the vehicle to another vehicle trader before the expiration of the three months period of grace, he shall give to the new keeper any part of the registration document in his possession.

(5) Where the vehicle trader transfers the vehicle to another person in a case not falling within paragraph (4), he shall -

(a) forthwith deliver to the Secretary of State, on that part of the registration document which relates to the change of keeper or otherwise in writing, the following -

(i) the name and address of the new keeper;

(ii) the date on which the vehicle was transferred to the new keeper;

(iii) a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and

(iv) a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct; and

(b) if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, deliver to the new keeper those parts of it not required to be sent to the Secretary of State under sub-paragraph (a).

The crucial words are "Forthwith Deliver"

 

In my opinion (but it is only my opinion and has never been tested in a court of law) this is to take reasonable steps to ensure that it is delivered. Posting the V5C is sufficient. There is no statutory requirement on you to ensure that it is delivered by the Post Office and not lost after delivery. An argument often used by the DVLA when the boot is on the other foot.

 

From the VED regulations:-

(6) For the purposes of subsection (5)(b) notice may be given to a person by—

(a) delivering it to him,

(b) leaving it at his proper address, or

© sending it to him by post;

and for the purposes of this subsection, and of section 7 of the [1978 c. 30.] Interpretation Act 1978 in its application to this subsection, the proper address of a person is his latest address as known to the Secretary of State.

Edited by Big Bill
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  • 7 months later...

hi, its been a long wait for my court date.

 

i'm in court court this thursday against the dvla, if i win the case i will be claiming personal loss of earnings for the day (about £100.00), my employer has given me a letter to produce in court confirming this.

 

i'll let you know how i go on.

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Blumming 'eck, can't believe they actually let it go this far, surely it's an oversight on their part, ie. slackers in the office.

 

Good luck JB, although I'm sure you don't need it.

PLEASE DONATE ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN

 

 

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.

George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

 

Go on, click me scales (if I have helped) :grin:

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Your only legal duty is to send the V5 to DVLA. Once posted you have complied with the law in full. If you obtain a proof of posting, great. If not your word that you sent it is fine.

 

DVLA send a confirmation letter out. They will; TRY to say that you should have contacted them within 4 weeks if you didn't receive it, however if you read their own words on any current V5 they actually say that they will acknowledge receipt after 4 weeks. That basically is an open ended time frame.

 

In any event, the law is specific on this. You MUST send the V5 to DVLA. That is all. There is no requirement for you to chase DVLA up.

 

The magistrate will simply ask you to swear that you sent it, which you will and that is the end of the matter. The onus is on DVLA to prove you didn't.

 

Enjoy your day off on full pay.

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When you arrive at Court, the DVLA prosecuter may approach you and ask how you intend to plead , and your reasons why, before going into Court. If you explain your position he/she may say that they will drop the case and no need to appear. Do not be fooled by this as it prevents you from asking for costs. Best to say nothing and get into Court.

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You are only required to notify DVLA about the transfer, waiting for a confimation letter is DVLA policy not law. The DVLA may say you have to 'deliver to the Secretary of state' but this is covered under s7 interpretations act 1978 as 'any other expression'.

 

The interpretations act 1978 is your friend, use it.

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You are only required to notify DVLA about the transfer, waiting for a confimation letter is DVLA policy not law. The DVLA may say you have to 'deliver to the Secretary of state' but this is covered under s7 interpretations act 1978 as 'any other expression'.

 

The interpretations act 1978 is your friend, use it.

Exactly. If in Court the prosecuter brings up the matter of the confirmation letter, make a point of asking the prosecuter if there is a requirement in law for yourself to chase up the letter, and which statute covers this. Also, I would make the point that the only way that you can inform DVLA of the transfer is by post, which you did, and have fulfilled your legal obligations, and as sickpup says the interpretation act covers that.

Good luck.

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Your only legal duty is to send the V5 to DVLA. Once posted you have complied with the law in full. If you obtain a proof of posting, great. If not your word that you sent it is fine.

 

......the law is specific on this. You MUST send the V5 to DVLA. That is all. There is no requirement for you to chase DVLA up.

 

Pretty much what I said.

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I won in court yesterday :D the Secretary of State representative didn’t even show up so the Judge immediately looked at the case in my favour and he commented he preferred my version of events anyway. He awarded me half a day’s wages to be paid in costs as the hearing was at 15:00 (I went to work in the morning), DVLA now owe me £50.00…RESULT!

 

Just want to say a big thanks for all of your advice, its been a huge help.

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Hi guys, I’ve just written to BBC’s Watchdog because I think DVLA should be exposed as the [problematic] they are and I would urge all of you who’ve had / that are in the same or similar situation with DVLA to do the same. You can do it here http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/

 

The sad fact is that most people would just give in and pay the penalty not knowing that they aren’t even liable. A classic example, when I told my fiancée about my problems with DVLA she then told her Dad who said “tell him to pay it straight away otherwise he’ll end up paying a massive fine and court costs”. A lot of my friends also said the same...had I not found this site I would have paid. Thanks again people.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Very happy to read this thread! :)

 

I'm not certain how bad my own situation has become, but the main issue is exactly the same. DVLA have been hasseling me for months about two completely separate vehicles that I have not owned for more than 12 months. One was sold and the other scrapped. Now I have received a letter from some bailiffs type company, even though I haven't been taken to court. :confused:

 

Should I start a new thread?

 

OK,I just read the forum rules, and will start a new thread. ;)

Edited by cheapo
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