Lloyds TSB Credit agreement - enforceable or not?

[plumberjon]

Hi

 

A few weeks ago I sent a letter to Lloyds requesting them to send me a copy of my loan agreement. I used Letter N from the templates I found through a similar thread.

 

I'll be honest and say that I did this as a result of that Panorama programme a couple of months back. I don't believe in trying to "cop" out of my legal obligations, but this loan was a re-finance made by the idiots at Lloyds collections to pay off overdrafts mainly created by there bank charges!

 

That is another story though, and I have already been paid back in full for charges to one account, the other is frozen in the court system.

 

Anyway. today I receive a letter stating:

 

"I am sorry but we are currently unable to provide you with copies of your loan agreement documents; however we can provide you with the information that you require"

 

...it then goes on to quote all the figures.

 

Surely if they can't provide this information then this is now unenforceable?

 

Any one know what to do now?

 

Cheers

[fedup74]

No agreement= no payment:D Send them this:)

 

 

In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letters of xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

 

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

 

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

And

 

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[plumberjon]

Wow, thats great news, the letter is on i's way recorded delivery.

 

I will let you know how it turns out.

 

Many thanks, it turns out it feels good to get good advice just as it does to give it.

[fedup74]

No probs;)

[roors]

Hi

 

Can you tell me when you took loan out - I'm currently in dispute over PPI and its being held up because Loan Centre haven't supplied information requested - I was thinking of cca them for loan agreement - I took my loan out Jan 2005

[slick132]

Hi PJ,

 

As they've been so straightforward about this, I think you could send a far simpler letter saying:-

 

"You have said you are currently unable to provide a copy of the loan agreement documents - do you anticipate being able to provide them at all."

 

You can, in the meantime, pay off the debt at a rate which you can afford and they cannot enforce the debt.

[plumberjon]

Letter went 1st class recorded delivery this afternoon.

 

Call me cheeky, but this loan was originally for £3900.00 and there is a little under £1700.00 outstanding.

 

Do I have any claim on the amount I have so far paid? (approx £2200)

 

PJ

[plumberjon]

Hi Roors

 

Sorry to be rude I didn't see your post.

 

I took this loan out, or rather was forced into it by Lloyds collections on 24/4/2004 and I had no PPI and nor was I offered it!!

[slick132]

Hi PJ,

 

Call me cheeky, but this loan was originally for £3900.00 and there is a little under £1700.00 outstanding.

 

Do I have any claim on the amount I have so far paid? (approx £2200)

You're cheeky !!

 

In a word, no.

[plumberjon]

Ha ha, thanks slick!!

 

I thought not but hey, if you don't ask you don't get!!

 

Thanks for your advice tho, I might just wiggle your scales.

[roors]

Thanks for info PJ - I will get letter for CCA off to them - I was forced to combine 2 loans and a credit card - total amount £25,000 and then another £5k + for ppi - will let you know how it goes. I did receive a loan statement from them the other day - at present the total outstanding is just over £7k - anythings worth a try.

 

Good luck with to you with your fight.

 

roors

[plumberjon]

Hi all

 

Today is the 4th Feb, and the "In Dispute" letter was received by them on 19th Jan, over 2 weeks ago.

 

I have received no communication from them whatsoever.

 

So what is my next move? I've never disputed under the CCA before, so unsure what my next step is. It's a bit different to re-claiming charges!

 

Any help please?

 

PJ

[slick132]

Hi PJ,

Carefully adapt and send this letter.

Dear Sir/Madam,

FORMAL COMPLAINT A/c no. xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

 

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

 

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’. You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

Despite my letter regarding ANY communication from your company, which stated that I require ALL communications in writing, your telephone calls continue.

 

This behaviour constitutes harassment; the letters stated quite clearly to you that I require ALL communications in writing for future use. Do not telephone me again - remove any telephone numbers you hold for me from your systems.

 

Your telephone calls are in breach of the Office of Fair Trading guidelines. If you continue with them after the receipt of this letter an official complaint, together with a log recording the times and frequency of the calls will be passed both to that office and to the Trading Standards office. For your information note that ALL telephone calls are taped.

 

This type of debt collection method is contrary to the ‘Administration of Justice Act 1970’ in that it is intended to cause alarm and distress to the recipient. Your methods will not be tolerated. A formal complaint, containing copies of all correspondence including yours, has now been submitted to the relevant authorities. This will be relevant to questions of your fitness to hold a licence under the Consumer Credit Act, whether or not it results in a prosecution.

 

Take further note that continued telephone calls after the receipt of a request not to call may constitute a criminal offence under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

 

Communicate in writing and ONLY in writing, your telephone calls will NOT be answered.

 

HOWEVER, CALLS WILL TRIGGER COMPLAINTS TO THE REGULATORY BODIES.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[plumberjon]

This letter is very similar to the letter I have already sent from the one further up the thread by Fedup74.

 

I've already done the CCA letter, had a response saying they have no copy.

 

I then sent the in dispute letter (fedup74), which is basically worded in the same way. It is this letter that I have had no response too. Do I need to send this again then? Sounds like I am allowing them another chance to redeem themselves!

 

PJ

[slick132]

Hi PJ,

 

Sorry - I should read further back up your thread.

 

Did you send FedUp's letter or the short version which I suggested in post #6.

 

Either way, they cannot presently take any enforcement action on the a/c and you're free to repay the debt at a rate you can afford.

[plumberjon]

No, they got the full version that fedup74 posted.

 

So far I have not received a single phone call from Delhi either, or wherever their call centre is!!

 

So something must be working!

 

PJ

[plumberjon]

Today is the 13th February, nearly a month now since Lloyds TSB received the "In Dispute" letter, and still no official repsonse.

 

However, today I received a call from the collections department muppet squad in Brighton. They are now chasing me for the 1 month's arrears that have now accrued.

 

I explained to them that they should not be calling me as the agreement is in dispute and I have requested that all communication should be in writing.

 

They didn't seem to want to know and kept trying to discuss how I was going to settle the account.

 

So now, not only is this un-enforceable, they are also still trying to collect.

 

Any advice please on what I do now?

 

PJ

[IdaInFife]

if you want the calls to stop them you can send:

 

 

 

Your Street

Town

City

Postcode

 

DATE HERE

Company Name

Road

Town

City / County

Postcode

Re: Harassment by telephone

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX Account Currently In Dispute

Dear Sirs

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)

I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to, FOS, OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

[NAME HERE]

 

Ida x

[plumberjon]

Hi

 

I have today sent the above letter to stop the phonecalls, as I have received another call today!

 

I have still not received a single reply to the "In Dispute" letter. I have though recently received a regular monthly statement, and they are still adding charges and interest to the balance.

 

It states in my dispute letter, that they are not allowed to keep doing this, so what do I do now, report them, and who to?

 

Many thanks,

 

PJ

[slick132]

Hi PJ,

 

1. Don't pay them any more, or make token payments if you wish.

 

2. If they call, tell them you are recording their calls and keeping a call log to back up a Formal Complaint to the FOS. Refuse to do the security checks and hang up.

 

Over in the BC forum, BC are replying to CCA requests by just sending out T&C's, saying this complies with their obligations under CCA 1974. Read about an alternative CPR strategy in Link No2 in my signature below.

 

This could be useful to you if LTSB pull the same stunt.

 

[plumberjon]

Right!

 

Today (27th Feb) I have received a letter from the collection clowns in Andover (they must have moved from Brighton due to unpopularity) dated 24th Feb.

 

Nothing at all about the fact that this loan is in dispute!

 

This is a threatening letter promising legal action to collect on the loan.

 

Are they idiots? (sorry, leading question)

 

Now I sent the CCA and the In Dispute letter to the main loan department for Lloyds in Peterlee. They replied to the CCA from there, so thats why I sent the In Dispute to the same place. It's not my fault one department can't talk to another internally, so do I really have to send this In Dispute letter again and effectively give them another bite of the cherry?

 

Help please.

 

Thanks,

[slick132]

Letter to Andover office,

 

You will see from the enclosed copy letter that this a/c is In Dispute due to LTSB's failure to produce any Credit Agreement.

 

If you are going to take legal action, as threatened in your letter to me, I assume you have the Credit Agreement. Please confirm that you have the Agreement and supply a copy to me.

 

If you do not have the Credit Agreement, you have no right to demand payment. Accordingly, any further demands from you will result in a Formal Complaint to the FOS unless the Credit Agreement has been produced.

 

[plumberjon]

Letter sent, let's see if they ignore that one too!

 

Thanks for your help, will keep you posted.

 

PJ

[plumberjon]

Hi me again!

 

Just had a phonecall from Lloyds about 2 hours ago. Recognised the 01273 ****** number right away!

 

Tried to get me to go through all the security details and I refused, stating that all communication should be now in writing and asked them to write to me instead.

 

Operator then said that I needed to go into my branch in person as they needed to tell me something!!!! I said that this wasn't very convenient and why can't you put it in writing.

 

After which the operator was keen to say Bye and hang-up!

 

Anyone got any ideas what the hell they are up to??

 

Or is this just a routine reply when you refuse to go through security, cos if I knew it was that easy, I would have done that ages ago!

 

PJ

[slick132]

Hehe,

 

They're not very creative in their ploys to get you to co-operate, are they.

 

Give it a few days for the last ltr to be rec'd and d/w by them.