HCE Group Ltd charges: please advice

[babist]

I had a case for a dispute against the charges from one of the companies that I asked for a survey on some property that I own. They did a poor job and they expected full payment. The case went to court and I was asked to pay £556.79 against the debt and £157 for costs.

 

The problem was that the letter from the Manchester County Court came when I was away (I travel a lot and for long periods) and wasn't here to sort it out. So it went to High Court Enforcement Group Ltd for collection.

 

Their initial notice from HCE was for an amount of £1222.14 which was explained as:

 

The Judgement Debt = £713.79

Judgement costs including statutory fees = £508.35

 

The story went on but I would like to ask if these costs can be justified on the basis of the first visit of the enforcement officer.

 

Babis

[babist]

I am sorry but I forgot to add that I am a new member to this group and this is my first case with bailiffs. I have read the fees in Schedule 7 and I understand they can charge mileage (£25), a percentage of the amount recovered (2.5% of £713) and a valuation fee (0.4% of the property - in my case was my car worth probably ~£4000). Can they charge for anything else? Please advice or point to relevant information.

[fwog]

Hi babist

 

Heres a link to the cerified bailifs fees and how they charge.

Its probably not all your looking for but it will give you food for thought. Another member will be along to fill in the gaps:D

 

Best of luck !

 

Fwog

[babist]

Thanks Fwog!

 

I hope that someone can help because the case is rather complicated for me to understand what they are allowed to charge.

 

There was no explanation of the costs incurred and when I asked him he said "Pay first and then I will explain the charges".

 

I have now paid fully the debt and they have sent me a breakdown of the charges which I find incomprehensible. They include items such:

 

execution fee (£101.75)

Poundage, Fee Order 1 (£27)

Inventory Fee, Order 6(2) (b) and Valuation Fee (£71)

Financial Management Fee, Order 12 (£146.87)

Administration Fee, Order 12 (£117.50)

Officer's re-attendance's charges (£695 - three times including first time ~£230 each notice).

 

I was also asked to pay £11.75 cheque charge and 4% credit card charge.

 

I have asked them for a detailed breakdown of the charges and also did a SAR. I have also written to Manchester County Court under FOI to get info on what charges they have agreed with their bailiffs. I have also checked and the specific individual is approved by Caernarfon County Court.

 

I am just annoyed with the attitude of the specific individual because he did not provide an explanation of the charges until after I paid and also the explanation was summarised under headings and not explained. At some stage, he also asked for this request in writing and claimed that he didn't receive my letter or my message to his answerphone.

[KJD]

Hi babist,

 

Have been having a scout about re these charges and I've deduced the following.. (MY opinion only - am more than willing to be put right BTW)...

 

Your county court judgement has been escalated to High Court by the claimant (which can be done for any monies over £600), which means the HCEO has different powers and fees to your 'normal' county court bailiff. In an ideal world you would have applied to have the judgement set aside at county court stage re not receiving the paperwork, but no point on dwelling on that now.

 

There is a schedule of fees known as The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 - found at

 

The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004

 

Reading through the above, my reading on what tey should have charged is as follows... (I've put in brackets the relevant sections I've used to see if people agree with my logic)

 

The Execution Fee (1 a&b) = £5 for the first £100, then 2.5% for the remaining (which by my calcultions means they should have charged £20.34)

 

The Poundage Fee (5.1) is charged @ £3.00 per day, so I'm guessing it took 9 days to get this sorted;

 

The Inventory Fee & Valuation Fee (2 b) is charged @ 5% of the value of the goods levied. You mentioned your car is worth £4000, but unfortunately when it comes to bailiffs, only their values work, eg when seizing goods, the cheaper the better, when charging a % for fees, the higher the better!;

 

The Financial Management Fee & Admin Fee (12) - comes under 'Miscellaneous'!

 

I can't see anything that allows for an Attendance Fee. I've read elsewhere that claimants are charged c £60 to instruct a HCEO to attend, and this covers for up to 3 visits. so where the £230+ figure per visit comes from beats me.

 

That's my reading of it anyway. But it's only what I've gathered from searching around.

 

Your best bet is to hope Tomtubby stops by - she will have the definitive answers to your questions.

 

KJD

[babist]

Thanks KJD,

 

some additional information. They are claiming and I quote "fees are charged under The Courts Act 2004, governed by Schedule 3, Regulation 13 and Poundage is charged under Fee A1, Schedule 3 of HCEO Regulations 2004."

 

I cannot locate any Courts Act 2004. Anyone has any ideas?

[KJD]

We really need Tomtubby here...

 

The charges are listed under Regulation 13, Schedule 3 of the The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 (takes a bit of reading of that link I gave, but it is in there). I think they've given you the wrong act though, as the Court Act 2004, from what I can find, is an Irish act to do with personal injury litigation??

 

The poundage is in the above also, but under a different section number.

 

But hey, what's a few mistakes when they're taking your money off you

 

I'd be really interested to see what you get back re the Freedom of Information request you've made. Under Miscellaneous (12), it says they can charge what they like - "For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application". So they can charge a 'Financial Management' and 'Admin Fee'?

 

Which prompts me to ask.. the Admin Fee @ £117.50 which is £100 plus VAT at the old rate. Did you pay this before 1st December 2008? Have they listed any VAT charges on the breakdown? If aso, is there a VAT number on the receipt you were given? The above Act does say "Value Added Tax, if payable, may be added to the fees specified". So who says if they are payable?

 

And another thing, I've not personally heard of a cheque charge - there's an ongoing debate on here re charging for using a credit card. Again, Tomtubby has stated they can't charge it but they do.

 

Just my rambling thoughts on this...

[chris600uk]

I'd like to know too - I expect to be facing these charges before too long so it'd be nice to have the right info

[babist]

I will wait for Tomtubby to drop by then!!

 

I found the information on this forum extremely useful so I will be more than happy to add my bit here. So when i get the FOI request back, I will update you.

[KJD]

Just an addition to this..

 

I have checked some paperwork here at work which I've received from a County Court (unfortunately had to take a customer to court) and have been looking specifically for Shefiff's officer's fees. There is a paragraph in leaflet Ex 345 'About Bailiff's and Sheriff's Officers' which reads as follows -

 

"How do I complain about the fees I have been charged?

 

If you think that the fees charged by the sheriff's officers are too high, you can apply to the High Court for a detailed assessment of the fees.

This means the court will decide if the fees you have been charged are reasonable or not.

 

Bailiffs..blah..blah..

 

You will need to pay an application fee to have the bailiff's fees assessed.

 

Etc.."

 

It then goes on to detail about making a complaint about a sheriff's officer, but personally I would think very carefully about going down that route. We've already had a poster come a cropper for following rather rash advice given to him re complaints.

 

I can't seem to get on the HMCS website at the moment to look for further info for the Assessment of Fees process (guidance notes, application form, etc) so you should have a look on there later.

[babist]

Thanks KJD.

 

At this stage, I am trying to understand what they are allowed to charge. I hope to find out this information from the SAR and the FOI requests. Fingers crossed....

 

As I mentioned before, the main problem for me, is that this individual refused to provide information on the charges.

[ambershadow]

I don't lknow of a Bailiff firm yet to give their charges out

[Guest Thebailiff]

I am an assistant high court enforcement officer and you have been lucky so far. We could charge up to 400+vat for attending. Also:

 

execution fee (£101.75) (cost of transfer to high court and handling of original documents)

Poundage, Fee Order 1 (£27) (percentage of debt paid dircet to the nominated HCEO

Inventory Fee, Order 6(2) (b) and Valuation Fee (£71) nothing to do with any goods levied and just a basic flat rate inv fee for siezure and valuation costs that we have to pay (or time it takes us).

Financial Management Fee, Order 12 (£146.87) (As HCEO and AHCEO we can, will and do give debt managment advice.)

Administration Fee, Order 12 (£117.50) (because there are lots of people working behind the scenes on each case)

Officer's re-attendance's charges (£695 - three times including first time ~£230 each notice). Could charge up too £400 per hour for attendances. i have seen a case where £12000 (yes, that number is right) in fee's have been added to a business's debt. the business questioned it and took a HCE company to court and lost. the fee's were fair.

[chris600uk]

HCEOA-information on what an HCEO can do for you in the recovery of your money judgment or possession order.

 

here's a little background reading

[chris600uk]

Remember, the HCEO cannot take goods that do not belong to the defendant.

 

So if you've already sold everything.............

Edited January 27, 2009 by chris600uk
clarity

[Guest Thebailiff]

Remember, the HCEO cannot take goods that do not belong to the defendant.

 

So if you've already sold everything.............

 

we can remove any goods we find on the spot from the directed address and if there is no 3rd party claim recieved within 5 day (just 5 days, not 5 working days) then we are entitled to sell the goods at auction and to keep the proceeds after 14 days if no further 3rd party claims are made. If 3rd party claim is made after 5 days but before 14, we will return moneies made from sale of good minus our cost and the auctioneers costs.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

If 3rd party claim is made after 5 days but before 14, we will return moneies made from sale of good minus our cost and the auctioneers costs.

 

Very similar situation happened to me a few years back. A bailiff charged a fee for levying on my goods including a grand piano for my partners parking ticket. I took the issuing council to court and won. The judge commented in his findings a bailiff loses entitlement to deem prima-facie the goods belong to the debtor after being told they belong to someone else. No statutory declaration or affidavit was needed.

 

Is your above-comment based on any particular legislation, or just a bailiff's code of practice?

[Guest Thebailiff]

Very similar situation happened to me a few years back. A bailiff charged a fee for levying on my goods including a grand piano for my partners parking ticket. I took the issuing council to court and won. The judge commented in his findings a bailiff loses entitlement to deem prima-facie the goods belong to the debtor after being told they belong to someone else. No statutory declaration or affidavit was needed.

 

Is your above-comment based on any particular legislation, or just a bailiff's code of practice?

 

Ok first question. were you dealing with bailiff's or high court enforcement officers. Completely different laws for each side.

 

And with reagards to high court enforcement, the rules are set out by the lord high chancellor and so are law and NOT our code of practice.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

A certificated bailiff, but trading with an expired certifiicate (but not relevant in this aspect of the case).

 

Are the lord high chancellor rules and fees for HCEO's freely available to the public? and if so where?

 

I find it somewhat odd a bailiff can still retain his auction fee after discovering the disposed property did not belong to the debtor. Your post indicates a bailiff and can subvert the general rule of prima-facie to obtain a money transfer and I couldn't find anything to confirm that position in the High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004

[getgoing]

hi thebailiff i was just wondering how long have you been an assistant high court enforcement officer.

 

getgoing:)

[Guest Thebailiff]

hi thebailiff i was just wondering how long have you been an assistant high court enforcement officer.

 

getgoing:)

 

3+ years now

[Guest Thebailiff]

A certificated bailiff, but trading with an expired certifiicate (but not relevant in this aspect of the case).

 

Are the lord high chancellor rules and fees for HCEO's freely available to the public? and if so where?

 

I find it somewhat odd a bailiff can still retain his auction fee after discovering the disposed property did not belong to the debtor. Your post indicates a bailiff and can subvert the general rule of prima-facie to obtain a money transfer and I couldn't find anything to confirm that position in the High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004

 

I have recently taken my AHCEO refresher course again which is regulated by the lord chancellor and the HCEOA and the exam stated thos facts clearly.

 

The only fee's we charge if we are returning goods is the auctioneers cost and removal costs(not our removal cost, but costs to pay outside contractor) If the debtor fails to inform us that the goods dont belong to him that is not our fault, and the person who the goods do belong to would have to get his money back from the debtor either by asking or going through the small claims court.

 

It is hard to find the regulations and i agree with you on that. Its why im here. to try and clear up some of the myth that surrounds this. all the fee's except attendance fee's are laid out here The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004.

 

our attendance fee's (i spoke boss today to confirm this) are not set out by law. we have no ceiling on what we can charge like normal bailiffs. the lord chancellor sets a guide of £300max for residential and £400 for commercial, however these are not enforced for HCEO and therefore we can charge anything. (but our company policy as well as all those governed by the HCEOA are to abide by the fee's as sugested by the L/chancellor). I have not met one enforcement officer that will go above those charges except on an hourly rate after arriving on site.

 

We also regularily lower our charges if the debtor askes and he is prepaired to make paymentsif he way to make a £500 payment and i have just charged 200+ to attend and he was worried about the high charges, i would have no qualms with dropping my charges to 50+ just so he did not get into deeper trouble. Remember, we are here to get the claimants money back but we are also tasked with helping debtors to sort out their debt. not make it worse.

 

Let me ask you, if you were in my place, how much would you cahrge if you had to drive 2 hours to see a debtor because he had defaulted on his aggreement.£50? would not even cover my wages for that 4 hour round trip. £100? might just cover my fuel and wages for the 4 hour round trip, but the company makes no money. is £200 too accesive now? (thats a question, not a statement)

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Let me ask you, if you were in my place, how much would you cahrge if you had to drive 2 hours to see a debtor because he had defaulted on his aggreement.£50?

 

Charge the fee set by legislation. Anything more and I could be criminally liable under Section 2 of the Fraud Act leaving me without a job.

 

Nobody forced you to be a bailiff.

[babist]

I am an assistant high court enforcement officer and you have been lucky so far. We could charge up to 400+vat for attending. Also:

 

execution fee (£101.75) (cost of transfer to high court and handling of original documents)

Poundage, Fee Order 1 (£27) (percentage of debt paid dircet to the nominated HCEO

Inventory Fee, Order 6(2) (b) and Valuation Fee (£71) nothing to do with any goods levied and just a basic flat rate inv fee for siezure and valuation costs that we have to pay (or time it takes us).

Financial Management Fee, Order 12 (£146.87) (As HCEO and AHCEO we can, will and do give debt managment advice.)

Administration Fee, Order 12 (£117.50) (because there are lots of people working behind the scenes on each case)

Officer's re-attendance's charges (£695 - three times including first time ~£230 each notice). Could charge up too £400 per hour for attendances. i have seen a case where £12000 (yes, that number is right) in fee's have been added to a business's debt. the business questioned it and took a HCE company to court and lost. the fee's were fair.

 

Hi Bailiff

 

thanks for your response.

 

Can I ask whether a HCEO is required to provide the information for the fees at each visit and if asked, in an itemised form?

 

Also, is there a scale of fees for HCEOs? I mena the extra fees such as administration fees, re-attendance fees, etc

 

Also, who decides to transfer a county court judgment to the High Court? Who pays for it? Is it the creditor or the HCEO?

 

Finally, is it possible for a certificated bailiff to act on behalf of a HCEO in a county court judgment transferred to the High Court?

 

I appreciate your input since you are doing the job of a bailiff. I believe that bailiffs and HCEO are entitled to receive payment for services provided as long as the fees are justified.

 

Babist

[Guest Thebailiff]

Hi Bailiff

 

thanks for your response.

 

Can I ask whether a HCEO is required to provide the information for the fees at each visit and if asked, in an itemised form?

 

Also, is there a scale of fees for HCEOs? I mena the extra fees such as administration fees, re-attendance fees, etc

 

Also, who decides to transfer a county court judgment to the High Court? Who pays for it? Is it the creditor or the HCEO?

 

Finally, is it possible for a certificated bailiff to act on behalf of a HCEO in a county court judgment transferred to the High Court?

 

I appreciate your input since you are doing the job of a bailiff. I believe that bailiffs and HCEO are entitled to receive payment for services provided as long as the fees are justified.

 

Babist

 

Hi Babist

 

no. there is no requirment to supply that information on the doorstewp unless your are levying goods and then its a very basic breakdown and goes into no detail. Our offices will supply a breakdown of costs at no charge.

 

The scale of fee's can be found here The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004

 

The creditor decides to transfer a case to high court. He sends payment for the transfer along with the CCJ and its sent to the high court for a look over to make sure its correct and within the limits to be able to transfer it and if it is they stamp it with the high court seal and send it back. the creditor decides which company of HCEO's to use and also which particular HCEO to use.

 

I am a certificated bailiff but it means nothing as a higher qualification exam is required to gain the approval to act as an AHCEO. usually a days intense training followed by a written exam the next day. (it not as easy as it sounds as we have to learn about bankruptcy, iva, winding up, fee's, costs and a host of other information)

 

Yes, i agree, I think we are entitled to payment and i fully agree that our fee's have to be kept low and not willy nilly charges making life worse for a debtor. but sometimes it takes a shock of high charges to make a debtor realise there are serious consiquinces sometimes. Usually these are reduced if he see's sense.(not calling debtors dumb by any means, just saying they should not bury their heads in the sand as that makes life worse) But on the whole our charges are reasonable and no one has yet won a case against us on those grounds becasue we are closely regulated. (although it may not seem like it)