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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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BT Cancellation Help Needed!


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Hi,

 

I've tried to scan through previous posts so as not to duplicate anything but didn't find anything relevant, apologies if I missed something!

 

I moved into a new flat in April this year and immediately signed up with BT with the intention of switching to TalkTalk (I've never had a problem with them, apart from them always trying to find something new to sell to you when you contact them). Shortly after, I signed up with TT and they obviously did the arrangements to cancel my BT line rental etc.

 

I've since received letters from BT (now up to the Debt Recovery Unit letter as I've left it so long) telling me I owe some £104 for early cancellation of contract. When I made the call in the first place I was quite clear about my intentions, indeed why would I sign up for a 12 month contract when I intended to defect to TT?

 

I've just spent an hour on the phone this evening being transferred between 6 different departments to finally get the answer that it would have been a verbal contract with written confirmation of the contract. I asked to hear a recording of the call I made, apparently all details of that initial call have been deleted as the employee I spoke to no-longer works for BT. Given that I didn't cancel on receiving the confirmation letter (did I receive it? did I even open it?) they assert that I've accepted the terms.

 

I may well have read the letter and done nothing about it, but I'm certain that I made myself clear as to what I wanted, which was definitely not a 12 month contract! Surely with no record of the original call, it can't just hinge on a letter I may or may not have received, let alone even read and accepted?

 

Is there anything I can do, or should I accept this as being my fault?

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It wouldn't matter. BT have never provided connections under 12 months, unless you specifically request a 'temporary' line, and the line rental for this is rather high.

 

Looking at it logically, if you wanted TT to provide you with service, then ask them to arrange the line. Since they cannot, you have to fit in with BT's contract - irrespective of YOUR intentions, as you are quite entitled to leave when you wish - paying the balance for any minimum term.

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I specifically made it clear I had no intention of staying with BT... without me asking for a "temporary line" I wouldn't expect that the only option would be to sign up for a 12 month contract. In fact this isn't the first time I've signed up with BT to then switch to TT... the first occasion in 2006 was painless in fact and I certainly wasn't asked to enter a contract or charged once it was broken.

 

Since TT aren't able to open new lines for people (admittedly not BT's fault), how on earth would I have gone about signing up with them without involving another provider? I'm sure there's probably an answer but surely not one that is clear to the average consumer?

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BT and their predecessors Post Office Telephones and the GPO have since I first came in contact with them (in 1960) have always required a 12 month minimum term - so it is hardly a 'new' condition to their terms of service.

 

Indeed, I cannot think of ANY utility that can be provided formally that allows for no commitment as part of the sign-up process (gas, electric, cable etc) so I'd contend that it would be unrealistic to contend there shouldn't be such a commitment when everyone else has implemented one.

 

OTOH, why should BT provide a discounted connection to their network, only to have you up sticks and go to a johnny-com-lately wannabe and lose the revenue you once might have earned from them? If TT had their own network, I might be sympathetic - but they don't, they simply cherry pick. Even cable companies are able to refuse customers should they want to switch to TT.

 

The only way I would agree with your view is if BT imposed a 12 month condition on the line after you asked them you wanted to switch, but as they didn't, they've done nothing wrong.

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  • 3 weeks later...

We have exactly the same problem however we DID sign up for a 12 month contract.

 

We requested our MAC code and switched to Be Unlimited with no problems, no warning was given that they thought we were on an 18 month contract, however we recieved our final bill to see that they had charged us £140 for cancelling the contract.

 

We complained and they said we could pay £10 for tapes of the original sales call to prove that we agreed to an 18 month contract, however they couldn't provide these but said we still need to pay the fine and they are correct.

 

We are 110% certain we opted for a 12 month contract but feel like BT have bullied us into paying up for 18 months. What can we do now?

HSBC Current: Total Fines £542.50 LBA sent 22/05 Deadline for Reply 06/06

Capital One: DPA sent 04/05 Deadline 13/06

Intelligent Finance: DPA sent 04/05 Deadline 13/06

Barclaycard: DPA sent 04/05 Deadline 13/06

Funding Corporation: Total Owed £475 Prelim sent 22/05 Deadline for Reply 06/06

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Just to add:

 

We started the Broadband on 15/10/07

 

Migrated to BE on 16/10/08

HSBC Current: Total Fines £542.50 LBA sent 22/05 Deadline for Reply 06/06

Capital One: DPA sent 04/05 Deadline 13/06

Intelligent Finance: DPA sent 04/05 Deadline 13/06

Barclaycard: DPA sent 04/05 Deadline 13/06

Funding Corporation: Total Owed £475 Prelim sent 22/05 Deadline for Reply 06/06

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If you have a brand new line provided by BT then there is a 12 month minimum term but if you want to activate a disconnected line that is already present then there is a 3 month minimum term. It is all too typical of BT advisors to no be in compliance with regards to telling you the terms etc and i have heard of many occasions when letters do not actually get sent out.

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Hi

 

Here's a contact number for Ian Livingstone Cheif Executive office, It will be his secretary nd she is on 0131 448 3675

 

We had a masive problem with BT, but she has responded and now we have a full refund.

 

Hope this helps you all with BT problems,

 

Lynn

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  • 4 weeks later...

Glad I read this before I went and shouted at BT - I had a £29 bill issued when I switched to sky which was for about 6-8weeks today I got one for £156 which I am not paying if they claim its for 12 months I will fight back as it was a reconnection of an existing line

If you can keep you head when all of those around you are losing theirs try parking your helicopter somewhere else

 

 

The PPI Saga

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Depends what you mean by 'reconnection'. If after non payment of a bill, then there is no minimum term, but if you mean service was provided on a line that was reconnected, then the 12 month minimum service applies. Do also remmeber that BT report to CRAs,

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The line was disconnected after my mother died as the council had provided it. I reconnected it because Virgin were messing me around - when I had it changed to sky they asked about whether it was a 12 month contract with BT which I said I didn't remember so they said it was unlikely - I will be talking to both as the Sky sales people would have known BT operate a minimum contract and fudging that was a bit sneaky when I made it clear it was a new line. I am not paying 2 contracts because of a mess up by Sky they already had my custom for Broadban and Digital TV so getting this wrong is unacceptable

If you can keep you head when all of those around you are losing theirs try parking your helicopter somewhere else

 

 

The PPI Saga

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Whilst I can see your moral argument, the fact Sky 'should have known' the policies of another company is unrealistic. They could just as easily argue that they have no knowledge of the arrangements entered into with another supplier, and would be unlikely to refuse any business because there might be a problem. The onus is always on the consumer to know (or at least find out!) what they've actually agreed to.

 

Good luck anyway!

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Arguments aside Sky do know - they would have to to protect themselves from complaints like this one since as far as I know they always use BT lines

 

And as the house is wired for both BT and cable I will make sure the Sky contract isn't renewed once the 12 months is up if they don't co-operate in some way

 

As far as BT is concerned the latest bill is just a huge figure over and above the previous one with no breakdown so they will have to rebill or send me details of what they are charging for.

If you can keep you head when all of those around you are losing theirs try parking your helicopter somewhere else

 

 

The PPI Saga

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Just to clear things up. If you have a new line provided then there is a 12 month contract for the line. If the line is a reconnection i.e the line already exists therefore not a new line being provided then there is a 3 month contract. The reason for a 12 month contract on providing the new line is for the engineer to come and install the line. The reason for a 3 month contract is for the cost of reconnecting the line. However I would say this charge may have been reasonable when it was done manually however it is done by computer now and most reconnections go through with no problem so no need for manual intervention.

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Thanks Scedminc.

 

In which case BT will be reducing the bill though when I looked on their web site I couldn't find a difference between reconnection and new line but to be fair with all the technological improvements stuff I was expecting tho say they would need to put a new one in but didn't. I have no problems with paying three months worth and expected that as they bill three monthly

If you can keep you head when all of those around you are losing theirs try parking your helicopter somewhere else

 

 

The PPI Saga

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