1st direct- debts after death --Help

[seville]

Hi

Can you give me some advice on what action I should take.Can I send a CCA letter or a SAR letter or both or wait??:?

 

I am dealing withthe estate of my ex boyfriend and I found a letter from April 08 from 1st direct demanding £996 and according to the letter it related to an agreement with HFC Bank Ltd.

I couldnt find any other papers so wrote to 1st direct(8th sept 08) to say he died, sent the death certificate/copy of his will asking if debt has been paid,details f original debt, sight ot the agreement with HFC. I also sent a similar letter to HFC .

HFC have not replied.

The solicitor dept of 1st Direct (LCS solicitors) sent me a letter on 2nd Oct 08 saying the debt of £996 was outstanding, the conditions of the origianl debt were teminated upon default and 1st Credit purchased the debt and that they have requested a copy of the documents from the origianl creditor HFC

They told me that my boyfriend had another debt of £530.12 with !st Credit (ex HFC ) and that in total £1526.17 shuld be paid in full when I administer the estate.

From reading all the other posts -DCAs are not to be trusted but I dont know what action to take because I dont have the agreements and I dont have a clue if he paid the debts off or not and I dont know if I have to deal with things differently if the debt belongs to someone who has died

All advice really really really welcome :? HELP??

[Pinky69]

I am sorry to hear of your sad loss and this must be a very difficult time for you. I think after a death you are best to consult a solicitor where there are outstanding debts because the law of probate is quite complicated.

[rory32]

I would send the CCA request and the SAR as you want to know 1. is the account enforceable and 2. if it is enforceable what the true outstanding balance is as it may have been paid off or there may be charges on the account which would reduce any balance outstanding.

 

While it's obviously a difficult time you do want to ensure that money isn't paid just because a DCA or creditor states that this is the balance outstanding.

 

Are you administering the estate solely or is a solicitor assisting you?

[seville]

Pinky69 --Thank you thanks for your advice I think solicitors (from my experiance) are rip offs--I have applied for probate & hopefully will have it in 4 weeks. Anyway I dont have a lot of money and I know solicitors debts just mushroom even for the basics. I will use them when necessary ie house sale

Rory32 -I'm the executor & sole beneficiary . I've use the free half hour and have phoned my union solicitor for more sticky stuff. Obviously I will use a solicitor for likes of the house sale.

I know I can deal with the run of the mill stuff and I have read and read about the legal side --this site is brilliant!!

Yes I dont want to pay DCA just because they say so because I have read so many horrific experiances on this forum.

My main concern was if it was still ok to send the CCA request and SAR for a deceased person

I know I sound business like --he died 30th June 08 and I havent stopped sorting his funeral,papers & debts & his house since then --His death was a huge shock but I expect it to hit me more when I finish all the pracitcal stuff. Not looking forward to dealing with the emotional stuff so I am just doing the practical.....for now:( I'm not good with emotioal stuff at the moment

I'll print out the CCA and SAR and take it from there and just treat it the way you would if he was alive ----is that ok?

Thanks so much

[rory32]

I'll print out the CCA and S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and take it from there and just treat it the way you would if he was alive ----is that ok?

 

Yes that's fine as you are the executor. If you receive any nonsense from them just post on here and we'll give you a hand.

[seville]

rory32 --thanks so much for getting back so quick

Will get the CCA & SAR done by the weekend --thanks

[seville]

Hi

On 20/10/08 sent the £1 (x 2) with the CCA letter to LCS solicitors (solicitors for !st Credit who are the DCA for the two HFC debts). by the way I dont have any papers--just DCA threatening letters for one of the debts. The 2nd debt with HFC is a total mystery:confused:

 

On 23/10/08 LCS replied with ".....they confirm they have ordered copies of the original HFC credit agreements for both accounts. On receipt we will forward the same to you"

 

If they dont reply in 12 + 2 I will send one of the letters I've seen on this site ----" the debt is unenforceable ---etc etc"(I've seen in on one of the threads somewhere)

As I am the executor (I am also the beneficiary) --if they cannot produce the CCA then the debt is unenforceable until they can produce it.Right??

How long do I have to wait? For ever? 6 years? before I spend any of my inheritance. Ive read so many posts/threads on these DCA hounding peopel years later/selling debts on(even though they shouldnt) and bullying.

It looks like there will be enough money in the estate to pay all the debts after I sell his house and his mums (yeh the debts are horrific!!)

I know I am thinking ahead but given that these DCA think nothing of chasing invalid debts and selling them on years later --Should I keep some money to one side in case they come up with a valid CCA in a couple of years time:(

This is my first attempt at challanging the debt but I've read and read posts/threads on this brilliant site.

Thanks so much

[Jesteruk]

seville, as you are probably aware from reading this site, only communicate in writing, never speak directly to them, they are very unsympathetic (dam my spelling gone!). even people who are on jobseekers will find DCA's demanding as much as they can, leeches is the word i use!

 

i doubt the CCA's they produce will be enforcable, only way is to put them up on here, if and when they arrive, and the guys/girls here will check them over for you.

 

As for your question of time, Once they have recieved your CCA request, they have 14 days, which you know. they then have a further 30 days and then they are in default of your request. At that point they are not allowed to demand any payments until they provide a VALID CCA.

 

If the debt is sold on then simply forward the new DCA a nice letter found HERE

 

The 6 year rule applies to the debt, to find out when a payment was last made on any paticular debt, you need to get hold of a copy of his credit file. This will show you the date each debt went into default, and its from that date the 6 years start.

 

A few golden rules to follow:

Never talk on the phone - only send letters

Keep a copy of everything you send

Never sign the letter - just print your name

Always send letter by signed/recorded delivery

 

If they continue to telephone you send the Telephone harrasment letter

 

best of luck and if you need anything just ask - everyone here is always helpful!

[ScarletPimpernel]

As for your question of time, Once they have recieved your CCA request, they have 14 days, which you know. they then have a further 30 days and then they are in default of your request. At that point they are not allowed to demand any payments until they provide a VALID CCA.

 

This is incorrect. The offence that was committed 30 day after the 12 day deadline had expired is no longer extant. So, a creditor has only 12 working days to comply with a CCA request.

 

As far as keeping money aside in case an agreement should be produced is concerned, it seems to me that after the 12 working day statutory deadline has passed, you could write to 1st Cretins telling them that since they have failed to comply with your formal request, you will now continue to execute the will as if there was no debt. If, at some future date, they reappear with an agreement but there is no money left in the estate to pay them, unlucky for them.

[rory32]

I would agree with SP. You have asked for proof of the alleged debt. They have been unable to provide this. If they at a later date come up with a copy of the agreement after the estate has been settled then that's just too late.

 

Having said that, that's my opinion. You may wish to seek the advice of a solicitor regarding this position.

[Jesteruk]

DURRR

OK OK it was 4am and i completely forgot about that! Funny thing is i reminded someone else the other day that the 30 rule has now gone.

 

Note to self:dont give advice at 5am

 

Cheers guys

[Pinky69]

You say you have been reading up on the law of probate so my apologies if this is information you already have. I would just caution you that an estate's debts have to be paid first before any money can be paid to the beneficiaries and they have to be paid in a certain order. If the debts are not met and there are subsequent claims and the money has gone, you as executor could end up being liable for them.

[seville]

Thanks so much for all your replies --your stars!!

SP --I never thought of taking that action of writing to them like you suggest.Brilliant!!

What I will be doing too--just to cover me as executor is advertising in the London Gazzet & a local paper of the death and inviting claims against the estate --I'll wait for the averlanche!! Creditors have 2 months then to make the claim.Probate.gides recommend the executor do this to cover themselves and before they pay out any debts to make sure I have ALL the debts

Pinky --thanks but I wont take a penny until all debts are paid otherwise I could end up being sued if I mismange the estate.

I'm pretty crap at dealing with debts but learning fast with CAGs but becomming a bit an expert on probate !!!

Hope I can return the favour to other CAGs who need help and support.

Oh -I definately wont speak to the DCA Horrors on the phone --no chance!!

Hope you dont mind if I get 'stuck' again --thanks so much

[seville]

Hi

LCS(solicitors for 1st Credit) wrote to me today in reply to my CCA request (sent on 20th Oct). They were late!!!

They say they will forward the CRAs once they get them from the origianl lender(not holding my breath on that one!).

They sent me what they call the 'payment history' but to be honest. Its just a list of transactions which look like mainly interest??? Its full ofadded/full of codes and abreviations that I dont understand. The transactions start in 2004 so I assume 1st credit bought the debt in 2004 but its not clear.

Anyway i am going to send them a letter as suggested by SP & Rory32 telling them I will execute the will and exclude their unproven debt.

 

I'm not at the stage to execute the will because I have to sell the houses to pay off the debts but I've got to draw the line somewhere. Anyway to cover myself i have advertiszed in the London Gazette inviting creditors to make claims and legally i have to give them 2 months 1 day from the date of the advert

I'll get my letter to LCS issued tomorrow

Thanks for your help

[cerberusalert]

Don't forget, whatever happens, an executor is entitled to have his proper expenses paid out of the estate, so the task should not normally be a financial burden to them. But it is advisable to have proof of every such expense as it will have to be accounted for in the accounts of the deceased estate.

[seville]

Thanks :)cerberusalert

 

Ive been gathering all my receipts for expenses/postage/hire of skip/probate costs.Got to admit that a couple of the postage expense for stamps etc have got lost so I wont claim for the missing ones

Because I live 25 miles away from the property I have claimed 30p per mile for mileage (I think thats fair and not too high) and because I have used other peple to do running around for me(I work full time) --like taking items to charity shops/valuers/tip/cleaning/clearing the house etc- I will be paying them 30p per mile too. I've got detailed mileage records to support the true mileage expense

 

I'm hoping that there will be something left in the estate after all the debts so I (as beneficiary) can give a special treat and a few £ the two very good friends who have helped me get through this.Their practical help has been priceless!! Wish I could give them something now but they are good and understand my hands are tied with the probate law

 

Thanks for your advice

[cerberusalert]

Don't forget to include any 'loss of earnings' if you've had to take any time off from work. That should also include any time taken which you may have used from your 'holiday' allowance.

[spamheed]

They sent me what they call the 'payment history' but to be honest. Its just a list of transactions which look like mainly interest??? Its full ofadded/full of codes and abreviations that I dont understand. The transactions start in 2004 so I assume 1st credit bought the debt in 2004 but its not clear.

 

This is not something I am 100% sure of, but if it's a first person debt, ie mine or yours, we would be allowed to query the outstanding balance and fight for the charges to be removed, before coming to an agreement of the payment of a legitimate debt.

 

It may be in your interests to investigate whether you can do this for your partners estate, I believe as executor, you also have authority to notify Trading Standards etc of any possible fraud. After all, they have supplied you with what appears to be a list of their applied charges, how legal are they?

 

As you have already realised, the members of CAG have mostly had negative experiences of these "people" and bear no love for Debt Collectors in general and are justifiably wary of their claims. I know it's a pessimistic viewpoint, but I would propose that you treat anything they say with a great big pinch of salt

[ScarletPimpernel]

I understand that although there is no legal time limit for dealing with an estate, it is generally accepted by the Courts that one year is reasonable. As well as being responsible for paying the deceased's debts, there is also a duty to protect the deceased's assets. Thus, ensuring that the estate is actually liable for any claimed debt is entirely appropriate.

 

In my experience, having assisted the executor of a relative's estate, creditors will often try to collect when they are not entitled, either by pressurising the executor to settle (or promise to settle), before probate is granted, or by saying that the executor or another third party should pay and then claim the money from the estate themselves. The regularity with which this occurred suggested to me that this is a standard practice.

 

In the OP case, any 'payment history' sent by 1st Credit (LCS is their solicitor's letterhead) is just a record of transactions. It isn't an executed credit agreement, and has no legal significance whatever. Their letter is certainly not worthy of any response other than the one already suggested. That 1st Cretins are having to ask the OC for the paperwork suggests that they did not produce it before persuading the deceased to send them money in the past, and also do not have any written acknowledgement of any debt from the deceased.

[Pinky69]

There is no time limit on the settlement of an estate. Some estates where there are disputes to settle can take years. My own late cousin's estate has yet to be finalised and she passed away 2 years ago. I think the important thing is to cover yourself for all contingencies so that you don't end up later paying anything out of your own pocket. Money should be set aside from the estate for disputed debts until you are absolutely sure they are settled or unenforceable.

[seville]

Thanks everyone for your advice. I didnt know there is no official time limit to settle the estate. I was advised that the 2 month 1 day limit after the Gazette add was the time limit for all creditors to come forward. I have disputed vertually all the debts of the estate--some are genuine but many have been reduced/vacated but I still have a few (including 1st Credit )thats in dispute. More may come out of the wood work because of the Gazette notice--but I'm ready for them:) and if they are genuine then of course I will pay

I dont expect 1st cretin/LCS to produce anything that is enforceable going by the threads I've read on this site--they are really the lowest form of life in my eyes. I wont be bothering arguing with them yet until they produce a valid agreement.

Pinky --I will keep enough money to one side to pay anything in dispute --just incase and of course to protect myself.

Its been over 4 months since I started with the estate and yeh its been difficult but I'm so grateful to CAG and will be sending a nice £ to the fund when its over to add to the pitance I previously sent a few weeks back

Thank

[Pinky69]

You are right about the time limit for creditors to come forward but after they do come forward there is no time limit if you are disputing the debt. Also, the ad is for creditors you may not know about. The ones you do know about either have to have the debt disputed or settled and there is no time limit on that (persupposing it will be all over before the debts reach the stage of being stature barred).

[seville]

Hi CAGs

Well I'm still dealing with the estate but things are moving along.

 

LCS(1st Credit) have raised their ugly heads again

 

I sent the CCA letter back in October 2008 for the 2 debts (1st credit) with the 2 x £1 postal orders.

Got the usual drivel of LCS about they will send copies of the credit agreements as soon as they get them off 1st credit.

In December 2008 sent a great 3 page letter to them (the one about the debt not being enforceable ---pinched off this site ) Super letter!!!

 

On 3rd March 09 I received a letter off LCS which says--" we write further to our letter dated 12th January 2009 and note we have not heard from you.---we require you to contact this office to discus payment of the outstanding balance"

I NEVER got a letter from them in January!!!

I still havent had the credit agreements either unless they were enclosed with their January letter.

I'm fuming because I suspect they never even sent a letter in January 2009 ! I wouldnt put it past them:mad:

What do you think?

I am going to write to them and ask for a copy of their January 2009 letter but at the same time send them a copy of my (these debts are not enforceable) letter sent to them by recorded delivery in December 08

I will give them 14 days to to provide a copy of thier letter.

 

Am I being to nice to LCS? Im just being extra careful incase by any miracle their January letter also encloses ACTUAL VALID credit agreements.

I havent reported them for failure to deliver the agreement within the 12 days --should i do that now? Who do I report them to?

 

Any advice will be greatly recieved --