CCCS DMP ignored by LloydsTSB-now failed to provide CCA as requested

[milvus]

Hello All,

 

I got into difficulty about three years ago when I was c.£23,000 in debt and on the advice of CCCS entered into a Debt Management Plan. One creditor agreed to their recommendations freezing all interest, while I believe Lloyds TSB have been negative from the start. I have paid quite large amounts each month and now have c.£13,000 debt to pay. I face an uncertain future after divorce and trying to rebuild my life.

 

Lloyds have not accepted the payment dates that CCCS work on so have continued to apply late charges (and interest on the late charges applied?) throughout, marking my loan as ‘Defaulted’. Having checked my credit report/score with Experian, it appears that this alone is causing damage to my credit rating. I don't want any credit in future - though I know I will want a good credit history to obtain favourable mortgages. They send regular demands for payment, always reminding me that my accounts are ‘in arrears’, ‘contact us immediately’ etc although they know I am on a DMP. LTSB have also rejected many payments from CCCS claiming the account numbers were incorrect – which a CCCS counsellor told me is a tactic LTSB are well known for.

 

Due to the way CCCS manages DMP payments, the loan payment is less than £3 below the normal amount, yet my Credit Card debt is being paid off at a sum far exceeding the minimum monthly payment. I believe their tactics might be motivated by the realisation that my debt will in fact be cleared quicker via the DMP than would otherwise have been the case, so are attempting to maximise their profits unethically. I filed a complaint with the Financial Ombudsman Service a year ago which has just been assigned to an adjudicator, who I believe is currently awaiting a response from LTSB.

I recently requested copies of my Consumer Credit Agreement from LTSB as advised by CCCS. They replied with some figures regarding my loan, which forms about 60% of my total debt remaining, but stated in their reply that 'we are currently unable to provide you with copies of your Loan Agreement Documents'.

 

I read with interest on the forums here that (if I understand correctly) no debt is enforceable if the Creditor fails to provide these documents on request. I refer mainly to the thread Managed Loan No CCA, Options? ***WON*** (in the HSBC section).

 

Any comments/advice much appreciated. Please feel free to advise me if I have posted in the wrong place – this site is a great resource but a bit overwhelming at the moment.

 

Regards,

 

Milvus

Edited October 3, 2008 by milvus
accuracy

[milvus]

Hi,

 

do any of you have any thoughts on my situation please?

 

Also, below is a copy of the request I sent to LTSB asking for (as I understand it as described in many threads on this site) CCA information.

 

Can someone please tell me if the request made via the letter below was adequate and correct, and refer me to a template letter with which to challenge/inform LTSB that I will no longer make payments against the loan as it is unenforceable in the absence of a true copy (?) of the original agreement?

 

Three of my debts are for LTSB accounts, the other creditor accepted the proposal of the DMP via CCCS immediately.

 

My current feeling is that I would like to challenge LTSB as they have been negative in their attitude from the outset. My concern is that I might end up in a worse position somehow.

 

I think I read in other posts that on request, CCCS will cease payments made towards any given account and spread the funds between the other accounts. Is this correct or might it be the case that I will have to end the DMP to challenge LTSB?

 

How would making the challenge, or if I have to end my DMP affect the complaint I registered with the Financial Ombudsman Service against LTSB ? Also, if I have to end my DMP, how might my other creditor respond?

 

Copy of letter requesting information of LTSB follows:

 

=====================================

Lloyds TSB Credit Operations

Queens Road Quadrant

1-5 Queens Road Quadrant

Brighton

BN1 3XJ

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

Ref (my name)

Agreement (account number)

Number

 

Balance (at time of writing)

Address (my address)

 

I write to formally request the following information regarding the above agreement. This agreement is a regulated agreement and therefore my request is covered by Section 77/78/79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The consequences of your failure to comply with this request are also detailed within the same act.

 

Please provide in writing, by return;

 

1.A copy of the original signed agreement.

2.A copy of the terms and conditions that apply to this agreement.

3.Notice of assignment [if applicable].

4.Full itemisation of all charges and costs applied to this account to date.

5.Confirmation of the current balance.

 

In consideration of the above conditions I enclose the mandatory fee of £1.00 and respectfully request that you comply with this request within the prescribed timescales. Please also note that this request has been sent by registered post.

 

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully

 

=====================================

 

Please help. Advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Milvus

[PGH7447]

No agreement no enforceable debt, I would write to this bank again and remind them of this fact, have you also tried to reclaim the extra charges they have applied?

 

If you get no joy I would simply stop paying them, and let them whistle for it, you have done everything right so far, it is these muppets who are in the wrong, i would also request their complaints procedures

[milvus]

Thanks for your response PGH7447, today I received the statements and details of charges applied to my current account. In the covering letter they reiterate:

 

'Our letter dated (March) is our Final Response to your concerns. I believe that this fully explains our position and I do not propose to add anything further to what has already been said.'

 

and also state that:

 

'I am unable to supply you with a copy of the current account application form as we do not hold this. You can ask your branch if they can provide this. They will also be able to supply you with a copy of the Terms and Conditions. I have returned your postal order as there is no charge for this information.'

 

Do the rules that apply regarding Consumer Credit Agreements apply to current accounts and credit card accounts as well as to loans?

 

LTSB have been far in excess of the timescales laid down in providing responses to my requests for this information and have yet to respond on my request regarding the credit card account.

 

Should I wait until I receive a response for the credit card account, or ask CCCS to cease payments for the loan right away and then decide what to do about the current and credit card accounts?

 

Many Thanks

 

Milvus

[PGH7447]

Is this a loan or current account here? if current account then the cca does not apply

[milvus]

There are three LTSB accounts consisting of: a personal loan, a LTSB Visa credit card, and a current account. There is one other creditor that fully agreed to the DMP.

 

I'm still waiting for a response from LTSB on the credit card account, it's now two months since I made the request for all three accounts from them.

 

I've been reading about CCCS and DMP procedure, it seems there are conflicting reports as to whether or not they comply with requests to stop payments where no CCA has been provided by the creditor. While I feel like I don't want to be forced to end the DMP it seems I may not have any choice if I am to challenge the loan (and possibly credit card?) repayments.

 

Thanks and Regards,

 

Milvus

[milvus]

I just Emailed CCCS with the following:

 

======================

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

On August xxth I acted on the advice of CCCS and wrote to Lloyds TSB to request full details of each account you have been managing on my behalf via a Debt Management Plan.

 

I write today to request that you discontinue payments to Lloyds TSB on account xxxxxxxxx and to disburse the funds you would otherwise have paid to that account among my other creditors.

 

Lloyds TSB have taken far in excess of the prescribed timescale to reply to my request, and as a result are subject to penalty.

 

In addition, when they did finally reply they failed to provide a copy of the original signed agreement and therefore in its absence have no right to enforce repayment. I shall write to Lloyds TSB on Monday 13th October to inform them that I have made this request.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

======================

 

Any thoughts please?

 

Thanks

 

Milvus

[Fred Bassett]

Hi Milvus,

 

Have you had a reply from CCCS yet regarding the request to stop paying Lloyds?

 

I ask because this might prove to be a bit of a sticking point. CCCS, in my experience, are loathe to do this and their response might well be along the lines of "well you do admit that you owe the money don't you?". Just be prepared for this because there is nothing more frustrating than being in this position - i.e., the creditor is being unreasonable but they don't have a valid agreement, yet you can't stop the payments through CCCS.

 

In the end, I pulled out of my DMP with CCCS for just this reason. It's paid dividends for me but it's not something I'd advise anyone to do lightly.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Edited October 19, 2008 by Fred Bassett
smelling pistake

[milvus]

Hi Fred,

 

Thanks for your reply. CCCS didn't respond so I called them on Wednesday and they declined my request to stop payments on the LTSB account in question, as they have to 'act fairly in the interests of all concerned' and also strongly advised not to end the DMP in order to challenge LTSB for not providing a CCA as requested – though this seems to be the only bargaining power I have. They told me that LTSB might make a ‘charging order against my property’ if I take this action. What does this mean?

 

As LTSB have failed the legislated timescales for responding to my CCA request, do I need to request that the penalties be applied?

 

In 2006 I entered a DMP on the advice of CCCS as they obviously considered my finances were out of control. LTSB refused from the outset to accept the CCCS DMP payment dates so are applying ‘late charges’ of £12 almost every month, which in turn compounds the interest charges they apply to the account.

 

After contact with CCCS, LTSB increased my overdraft limit for six months in order to stop this happening. Last month they wrote to say the overdraft limit was returning to a lower level and charges of £15 monthly plus £15 for every day the new overdraft limit was exceeded would be applied. Though I knew this would likely incur an overdraft on the current account held with my new bank, I acted quickly (or so I thought) and paid enough to bring the account down below the new limit. Apparently this wasn’t quick enough for LTSB, as they have now applied £45 penalty charges to my current account, again taking me over the new lower limit, which in turn means more charges.

 

I am paying at least £20 each month in ‘late’ charges on my credit card account and interest on my overdraft. This is easy money for LTSB simply for refusing to make any positive concession to the recommendations of CCCS – namely, even if they did not agree to freeze interest, accept their payment dates.

 

I need to consider what action to take next. My complaint to the Financial Ombudsman has been assigned to an adjudicator and I expect to hear something from them in a month from now (though this may just be another 'your case is still being worked on' update). So if I decide to end the DMP, your comments will be greatly appreciated please on the...

 

POTENTIAL PROS:

 

1. If I end the DMP and manage payments myself, I would then be in a position to cease payment for the loan (at least until such time as LTSB may provide a proper CCA as requested).

 

2. I would immediately avoid the £12 ‘late’ charge they have been applying to my credit card account by making the payment by their due date.

 

3. I could reduce payment on the credit card balance and increase payment on the current account to clear my overdraft in the space of perhaps a few months (though I understand credit card interest may be higher, this would give me an important psychological boost – and monies applied to the overdraft would then be applied to the credit card).

 

POTENTIAL CONS:

 

1. Negative effect on the complaint with the Financial Ombudsman?

 

2. The balance with my single non-LTSB group creditor is £2300 and I don’t know what action, if any, they might take if I end the DMP. Might they reapply interest charges to remaining balance (perhaps retrospectively since the DMP began?) or even seek repayment in full?

 

3. A ‘charging order’ might be applied against my property by LTSB?

 

Might another another possible strategy be to see if I could borrow from my employer's credit union to repay my debts, perhaps with a ‘full and final’ offer to my creditors?

 

What might the implications of any of this be to my credit score? I last looked a couple of months ago and the only issue was that my loan is marked as ‘default’. All other accounts showed as ‘satisfacory’... I don’t really understand why. I want to have a good credit rating, not so I can use credit again as that’s the farthest thing from my mind – but I want to be able to get favourable mortgage rates, and to leave my LTSB group mortgage as soon as possible, on principle.

 

All of this seems unnecessary as the very reason for considering any of it is that LTSB have from the outset, steadfastly refused to make any concession requested by CCCS. Though I can’t quote the agreement/code of practice, I’m sure there’s a passage stating that creditors have entered into an agreement to work together with CCCS and similar charities to work to a positive outcome for all concerned. Too bad they don’t truly have that attitude

 

Regards,

 

Milvus

Edited October 20, 2008 by milvus
accuracy

[Fred Bassett]

Hi Fred,

 

Thanks for your reply. CCCS didn't respond so I called them on Wednesday and they declined my request to stop payments on the LTSB account in question, as they have to 'act fairly in the interests of all concerned' and also strongly advised not to end the DMP in order to challenge LTSB for not providing a CCA as requested – though this seems to be the only bargaining power I have. They told me that LTSB might make a ‘charging order against my property’ if I take this action. What does this mean?

 

As LTSB have failed the legislated timescales for responding to my CCA request, do I need to request that the penalties be applied?

 

In 2006 I entered a DMP on the advice of CCCS as they obviously considered my finances were out of control. LTSB refused from the outset to accept the CCCS DMP payment dates so are applying ‘late charges’ of £12 almost every month, which in turn compounds the interest charges they apply to the account.

 

After contact with CCCS, LTSB increased my overdraft limit for six months in order to stop this happening. Last month they wrote to say the overdraft limit was returning to a lower level and charges of £15 monthly plus £15 for every day the new overdraft limit was exceeded would be applied. Though I knew this would likely incur an overdraft on the current account held with my new bank, I acted quickly (or so I thought) and paid enough to bring the account down below the new limit. Apparently this wasn’t quick enough for LTSB, as they have now applied £45 penalty charges to my current account, again taking me over the new lower limit, which in turn means more charges.

 

I am paying at least £20 each month in ‘late’ charges on my credit card account and interest on my overdraft. This is easy money for LTSB simply for refusing to make any positive concession to the recommendations of CCCS – namely, even if they did not agree to freeze interest, accept their payment dates.

 

I need to consider what action to take next. My complaint to the Financial Ombudsman has been assigned to an adjudicator and I expect to hear something from them in a month from now (though this may just be another 'your case is still being worked on' update). So if I decide to end the DMP, your comments will be greatly appreciated please on the...

 

POTENTIAL PROS:

 

1. If I end the DMP and manage payments myself, I would then be in a position to cease payment for the loan (at least until such time as LTSB may provide a proper CCA as requested).

 

2. I would immediately avoid the £12 ‘late’ charge they have been applying to my credit card account by making the payment by their due date.

 

3. I could reduce payment on the credit card balance and increase payment on the current account to clear my overdraft in the space of perhaps a few months (though I understand credit card interest may be higher, this would give me an important psychological boost – and monies applied to the overdraft would then be applied to the credit card).

 

POTENTIAL CONS:

 

1. Negative effect on the complaint with the Financial Ombudsman?

 

2. The balance with my single non-LTSB group creditor is £2300 and I don’t know what action, if any, they might take if I end the DMP. Might they reapply interest charges to remaining balance (perhaps retrospectively since the DMP began?) or even seek repayment in full?

 

3. A ‘charging order’ might be applied against my property by LTSB?

 

Might another another possible strategy be to see if I could borrow from my employer's credit union to repay my debts, perhaps with a ‘full and final’ offer to my creditors?

 

What might the implications of any of this be to my credit score? I last looked a couple of months ago and the only issue was that my loan is marked as ‘default’. All other accounts showed as ‘satisfacory’... I don’t really understand why. I want to have a good credit rating, not so I can use credit again as that’s the farthest thing from my mind – but I want to be able to get favourable mortgage rates, and to leave my LTSB group mortgage as soon as possible, on principle.

 

All of this seems unnecessary as the very reason for considering any of it is that LTSB have from the outset, steadfastly refused to make any concession requested by CCCS. Though I can’t quote the agreement/code of practice, I’m sure there’s a passage stating that creditors have entered into an agreement to work together with CCCS and similar charities to work to a positive outcome for all concerned. Too bad they don’t truly have that attitude

 

Regards,

 

Milvus

 

Hi Milvus,

 

It's very difficult to advise you on some of this. I pulled out of my DMP for the same reasons as you want to. The only bargaining point you have is to stop paying when they don't produce the CCA - but this only applies to the credit card - as you know it won't cover the current account.

 

For my part, I paid the Lloyds current account quickly - if you can get it below the level where they are not adding charges. They are absolute sh*ts for this and to my mind it is quite ethical to stop paying the credit card, if they can't produce an agreement, if they are going to behave in this way.

 

As far as things like charging orders are concerned, these often seem to be threatened - for it to happen, Lloyds would have to take you to court and win and for that to happen, they have to produce a valid CCA. How long ago did you ask for it?

 

As far as the DMP is concerned, the CCCS are a godsend when you're in trouble, but they are partly funded by the credit industry and I do wonder if the business of not paying a creditor without an agreement is foisted on them by the banks etc. It's quite clear that you will never get Lloyds sorted out unless you do pull out. Their behaviour is despicable and it would be nice to think that one day the OFT will come down on the side of the consumer and Lloyds will take a hammering.

 

For my part, I pulled out of my DMP at the end of last year. All of the creditors that I am paying are still accepting the amount I was paying them when I was in the DMP. Others aren't getting paid and one has given up. My situation was/is far worse than yours (although my situation with the Lloyds current account was nowhere near as bad), so it made sense for me to do this. It's your call, but as you've only got one other creditor who seem to be behaving reasonably, thenI know what I would do!

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[sexon]

milvus,

 

this may not help much. but i have had serious problems with ltsb for a year. i have a dmp with payplan, free service to me as a union member. i have cleared the other 4 creditors and only left with tsb. i am paying off a credit card and a loan. when i revised my offer downwards (due to new baby), they were sent a new plan electronically. somehow, the credit card people said they didnt receive my offer, when the loan people did, though offer sent simultaneously and online they started making 3 or more calls a week, even to work. yes i note the usual response, "we didnt receive your letter"...

 

i started logging the calls and complained for second time (harassment, threats, unthruthfulness etc) and await a response.

 

i was so respectful and oblidging, but their rude and threatening (me with jail for a civil debt!!) calls drove me crazy. stuff them, if they cant enfore that agreement so be it.

 

always send your letters by recorded delivery, track them, and print off delivery note.

 

best of luck.

[milvus]

Tellingly, CCCS say that LTSB more often than not accept their payment dates a few months after the commencement of a DMP - but also that LTSB are aggressive in their dealings with their customers when they encounter financial difficulty.

 

I contacted CCCS and it was mutually agreed that it was a very positive thing to do to end my DMP. I then contacted my sole non-LTSB creditor and I was very disappointed with their response - that they would immediately place the debt with a 'third party' if I ended the DMP.

 

Due to a combination of their reaction and that the Financial Ombudsman are due to update me on my complaint against LTSB within two weeks, I'm continuing with the DMP until I hear from the FO office.

 

I want to see what 'solution' to my complaint is suggested after they have liased with LTSB. Failing complete refunding of their so-called 'late charges' and compounded interest, I feel that there is no other reason to continue the DMP and will reassess when the FO have written to me.

 

As always, any comments greatly appreciated.

 

Milvus