Disciplinary while under a doctor's note

[c_allen]

Ok, this is another letter i'm thinking of sending in, I think it might be a bit strong, any thought or opinions please:rolleyes:

 

Dear Sir.

Further to my previous letter received by you on Monday 07 July 2008, I wish to add further grounds for my appeal against the decision to dismiss me on the grounds of Gross Misconduct or any other grounds.

Having read your own “Timekeeping and Absence Control Procedure”, I have found on page 3 the following;

“Any person who shows a frequency or pattern of absence that gives cause for concern, for whatever reason, will be offered help, e.g. the referring of the co-worker to the Company Medical Advisor in order to identify an ongoing health problem etc”.

To be perfectly honest my record of sickness has shown neither “a frequency nor pattern” but I would expect to be allowed, under your own “Company Policy”, to be given at the very least this “help”, and not be dismissed.

So I feel I have a duty to ask,

Is it Company Policy to punish people more harshly who do not show any frequency or pattern to their sickness than people who do? That is of course, unless you count summary dismissal as help?

I would also like to point out that I cannot be accused of “ abusing the company sick pay scheme” I have not had a single day off sick for 6 months, and this is the first time I have received any sick pay whatsoever.

Furthermore, also taken from your own “Timekeeping and Absence Control Procedure”.

“Where a co-worker’s absence exceeds 4.5% their sick pay will be reduced to 50% for any further occasions of absence until such time that their absence drops below 4.5% within a rolling 12 month period”. This does not mention anything about dismissal.

(At this point I feel I should point out that in my “statement of terms and conditions of employment” it clearly states that my probationary period is 6 months,)

At no point in your own “Timekeeping and Absence Control Procedure” does it state that people who are genuinely ill will be dismissed for gross misconduct, I have served my “probationary period” so I should be treated no differently than any other permanent employee.

Also from my “statement of terms and conditions of employment” under the heading, NOTICE AND TERMINATION,

“In cases other than gross misconduct the Company is required to provide you with two week’s notice, in writing”.

I think by now we can agree that I have at no point committed any offence that could be represented as gross misconduct.

Further to my complaint against Mr X,

I have remembered something else about the “ meeting” I attended on the 3rd July.

When it became apparent that the meeting was not as Mr X stated “concerning my health”, and I said that I would not answer any more questions as I felt I was not answering the questions as I would normally have, because of my ill health and lack of sleep for the past 3 or 4 weeks, until such time as I felt capable, Mr X said,

“ the answers I gave would have nothing to do with any decision he made on my future with the Company”.

Yet in the letter dismissing me it says that,

“ following the meeting held on Thursday 3rd july at 9.00am, at which you were accompanied by Mr Y, your trade union representative. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss your future employment with the company”.

It is quite obvious that something is wrong with one of these statements.

Also on the first day I was sick, (after being at work for about three hours), when I first went to see Mr X to tell him the I was unwell, he told me to " go and a have brew and a rest for 10 minutes to see if I felt better", now I'd just told him that I didn't feel safe, my balance was gone, I felt sick and dizzy, I said that I hadn't felt very well since I awoke that morning, but that I'd come into work thinking that I would feel better after eating.

So I sat in the canteen for 20 minutes, then went back to see him, said that I was feeling unsteady on my feet, sick and dizzy, he replied that I could go home but he was worried about the amount of sickness I'd had, as it was almost at the 4.5% disciplinary point..... So from that I read that his first concern was not for my health or safety, but for company rules. The only concern he showed for me, was when he told me to find a first aider on the way out. I would have thought that he should have called a first aider in the first instance, there are plenty of them on the shop floor, and that I should not have been allowed to walk home on my own in the condition I was in, I was dizzy confused, and I no way fit, surely Mr Case, as senior management has a duty of care under H.S.E. regulations.

While I can understand that I will not be allowed to work while this matter is being investigated, I fail to understand why this unlawful, unfair and wrongful decision has been allowed to stand.

The decision to dismiss me for gross misconduct has been made by a manager, based on incorrect information, the same manager has also ignored Company policy, ignored all relevant employment laws, ignored all relevant HSE regulation, denied me my rights to fair representation, denied me my rights to a hearing at a time when I was fit and able to defend myself, bullied and intimidated me into a meeting which he falsely represented as “ a meeting concerning my health”, bullied and intimidated me into answering question I did not understand, I have also been denied my contracted right to receive two weeks written notice, I can only assume that Mr X is also responsible for denying me this, as it was his decision to dismiss me without notice.

Also to clarify part of my last letter,

The reason I believe the amount of time sick claimed I have had is wrong, is that the third period of sick was when I was sent home unfit for work, even if this is counted as sickness, it is only half a day not a full day as claimed, I am sure it was after 11am when I clocked out, and this is also the period that I feel is wrong in the claim that I have had four periods of sickness, I came into work, I was deemed unfit, I was sent home.

Another “day” that has been counted against me was the first day of this present period of sickness, I dispute this for the same reasons as above.

I have a problem with one more claimed sick day, and I feel very strongly that this is a deliberate attempt to twist the facts to make my record seem worse than it really is.

The day in question is last Friday the 4th july, how could this have been counted when we are on a four day week, and don’t work Fridays?

I sincerely hope that this matter is being treated with the seriousness and urgency that it deserves, and that my complaint against Mr X is also being treated in accordance with company policy, While my absence due to illness has been treated as gross misconduct, and I have been dismissed, then I hope you are treating Mr X in the same manner, we are after all co-workers, with equal rights, and therefore we should be treated in the exact same way, unless I am being discriminated against?

 

 

 

PEASE PLEASE PLEASE, CAN I HAVE SOME HELP HERE.

[chasin sunsets]

Hi, I think the letter points out exactly what you need to inform your employer. In my last meeting with one so called manager, the area union rep came in and the manager in question walked out and refused to take part in the formal meeting. I now know that there are certain people in power here that shouldnt be. I cannot further my career here so have given up and am now seeking work elsewhere in the same sector or going self employed...

[gadgetgirl79]

hi and thanx once again:).

the vetigo is getting better now, i think the insomnia has been caused by the vertigo, and the worry about the possible skin cancer, so adding this dismissal to it won't help that, i've been given sleeping tablets by the doctor, but they don't seem to be helping much, it's the worry thats doing it, so i think sleepers are the wrong ways to go. yep i've tried every trick in the book, but my mind is that active nothing works really, it'll go sooner or later as things sort themselves out.

 

Sleeping tablets are evil!! They make you stress even more as you feel more pressure on yourself to fall asleep.

 

I suffered from insomnia when I was a teenager, so would often be wide awake until 3am or 4am, which isn't great when you have to get up for school! I sympathise what an evil thing it is!

 

I really recommend going to bed at the same time every night (including weekends), then getting up 8 hours later. Get yourself either a hypnotherapy relaxation CD to listen to, or do yoga starting an hour before you plan on going to bed. An hour before you go to bed, don't do anything that would stimulate the mind (no reading, no tv, no crosswords, no cryptic thoughts!), and definitely don't have anything electrical or distracting in your room (i.e. tvs, LCD displays on stereos or clocks).

 

It's worth a try, and at least you can tell work you're doing somethign contructive to get better!

[c_allen]

thanx for all your advice;) much appreciated. i did get a better nights sleep last night, now the vertigo is going.

what do you thnik of the letter, is it a bit strong? i really want to get some reference to discrimination going, just in case of a tribunal, but i think going in this strong might have the effect of getting their backs up and them not giving me my job back.

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, I think, although you have covered all points in your letter, it could perhaps be a little too detailed to be easily understood. Your employer may not take the time to read it in it's entirety. If you would like me to edit it into a more structured form I am happy to do so, but I am quite busy today and may not get to it until tomorow. What is the deadline for your appeal?

 

Kind Regards

 

Ell-enn

[c_allen]

Hi and thanx for your reply, my appeal is thurdays 17, i've had a letter from them so i decided agaist sending that one, I just wrote this, feel free to edit, add, screw up and throw away:D

 

Dear Sir.

Thank you for your letter dated 9 July 2008.

In paragraph 4 of your letter, you make reference to my “undated and unsigned” letter. I must have made a mistake and gave my copy to Mr Y. I apologise for this error.

You also in paragraph 4 request me to provide documented evidence to support my claim that I am suffering from vertigo and insomnia, I have already provided documented evidence to support these claim by way of the medical sick notes already in your possession, however in the interest of complying with your request I have obtained further evidence in support of my illnesses at a cost of £10.00. I hope that as I had provided evidence already, I will be re-imbursed with this money.

In the same paragraph you also request more evidence of my skin cancer, the only evidence I have at this time is a letter confirming my admission to hospital on Monday 21 July 2008, could you please let me know as soon as possible if this is not enough evidence and I will contact the hospital to try to arrange more, I hope that this will be enough as I am reluctant to waste the hospitals time.

With reference to paragraph 5,

I completely accept that the original letter clearly stated the purpose of the meeting, that being "to discuss my your future employment with the company", it did not say that it was a formal dicilpinary hearing nor that I could be dismissed as a result. My contention is that Mr X misrepresented the meeting as something else when I requested the meeting is postponed on health grounds.

I also accept that it is my responsibility to arrange representation, unfortunately I was not given sufficient notice to enable me to do so, minimum notice required, to the best of my knowledge, is 48 hours, I feel that given the nature of my illness even 48 hours would have been insufficient.

In your letter dated 3 July 2008, it was at no point stated that I would receive 2 weeks pay in lieu of notice, is it any wonder that I have spent the last 7 days believing that I had been dismissed for gross misconduct. This has added considerably to the amount of stress and frustration I have suffered.

In my statement of terms and conditions of employment, it clearly states that “in cases other than gross misconduct the Company is required to provide you with two weeks notice, in writing”. In your letter dated 9 July 2008, you say “ Please note that you have not been summarily dismissed and will be paid two weeks pay in lieu of notice as per your contract”. I feel that this has happened only as a reaction to my letter of the 7 July 2008. In support of this is the fact that I have not received this pay yet, 8 days after being dismissed. For a Company of the size of ***i, with the administrational resources available to you I find it odd that you would not be able to arrange the payment within that time.

Further to my previous letter received by you on Monday 07 July 2008, I wish to add further grounds for my appeal against the decision to dismiss me on the grounds of Gross Misconduct or any other grounds.

Having read your own “Timekeeping and Absence Control Procedure”, I have found the following;

PROCEDURE AND SCOPE

“The procedure is designed to help and encourage all hourly paid co-workers to achieve and maintain the company’s standards for timekeeping and attendance. The aim is to ensure consistent and fair treatment for all”.

SICKNESS ABSENSE

“It is recognised that co-worker will, from time to time, fall ill. In recognising that fact, the Company operates a generous sick pay scheme in support of co-workers genuinely ill”.

LONG TERM ILLNESS

“The Company considers absence in excess of three working weeks to be a long term illness”.

“After 3 weeks of absence a co-worker will be requested to attend a review meeting in the presence of the Company Medical Advisor”.

“Any person who shows a frequency or pattern of absence that gives cause for concern, for whatever reason, will be offered help, e.g. the referring of the co-worker to the Company Medical Advisor in order to identify an ongoing health problem etc”.

To be perfectly honest my record of sickness has shown neither “a frequency nor pattern” but I would expect to be allowed, under your own “Company Policy”, to be given at the very least this “help”.

I would also like to point out that I cannot be accused of “ abusing the company sick pay scheme” This is the first time I have received any sick pay whatsoever.

(At this point I feel I should point out that in my “statement of terms and conditions of employment” it clearly states that my probationary period is 6 months,).

I have served my “probationary period” therefore I should be treated no differently than any other permanent employee.

The same document says that disciplinary procedure may be invoked if:-

“A co-worker records 3 occasions of absence in a 26 week rolling period”.

There seems to be a special rule for me, in your letters you state that I have been absent on 4 occasions in a 10 month period, when by your own policy it should say, I have been absent on 2 occasion in a 6 month period.

As Mr X said in the meeting that my illness was “obviously genuine”, I fail to understand how the decision to dismiss me was reached. Mr X agreed that it was genuine, I only had 1 Period of sickness in a rolling 26 period, 2 if you include this “obviously genuine” period, my sickness was below the 4.5 threshold , then the disciplinary procedure should not have been invoked, surely.

Also to clarify part of my last letter,

The reason I believe the amount of time sick claimed I have had is wrong, the first day of this present period of sickness; I went home part way through a shift.

I have a problem with one more claimed sick day, and I feel very strongly that this is a deliberate attempt to twist the facts to make my record seem worse than it really is.

The day in question is Friday the 27th of June, how could this have been counted when we are on a four day week, and don’t work Fridays?

I have remembered something else about the “meeting” I attended on the 3rd July.

When it became apparent that the meeting was not as Mr X stated “concerning my health”, and I said that I would not answer any more questions as I felt I was not answering the questions as I would normally have, because of my ill health and lack of sleep for the past 5 or 6 weeks, Mr X said,

“The answers I gave would have nothing to do with any decision he made on my future with the Company”.

Yet in the letter dismissing me it says that,

“ following the meeting held on Thursday 3rd july at 9.00am, at which you were accompanied by Mr Z, your trade union representative. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss your future employment with the company”.

It is quite obvious that something is wrong with one of these statements. Had the decision to dismiss me already been made before I had been given the chance to defend myself? Or was that statement an attempt to mislead me into thinking the meeting was not about my future employment?

While I can understand that I will not be allowed to work while this matter is being investigated, I fail to understand why, (considering the facts), this decision has been allowed to stand.

The decision to dismiss me is based on incorrect and misleading information, the letter inviting me to the meeting made no mention of disciplinary action, what the consequences of the meeting could be, the process of this action has failed to follow the rules on disciplinary procedure, ignored Company policy, ignored relevant employment laws, ignored relevant HSE regulations, denied me my rights to fair representation, denied me my rights to a hearing at a time when I was fit and able to defend myself, I was forced, while unfit, into a disciplinary meeting which was falsely represented as “ a meeting concerning my health”, and I have been bullied and intimidated into answering questions I did not understand,

This whole business is very distressing for both myself and my partner, and is adding to the already huge amount of stress I have at the moment, due to the possible skin cancer.

We have a mortgage and bills to pay.

While I am very disappointed with the treatment I have received, I still feel I have a lot to offer the company, and would be very happy if I am reinstated.

I also hope that my complaint against Mr X is being treated in accordance with company policy, My absence due to unavoidable illness has been treated as very harshly, and I have been dismissed, then I trust that Mr X is being judged using the same standards, we are after all co-workers, with equal rights, and therefore we should be treated in the exact same way.

 

Yours Faithfully

Edited July 12, 2008 by c_allen
edited folling advice

[emmaf01]

I would exclude the bit about your holiday and just stick to mortgage and bills.

 

Other than that good luck- and has your union offered you no help with all of this? Shocking behaviour.

[c_allen]

the union is helping but to be honest they're useless. Well almost, i've just seen a peice of paper that states that no disiplinary action should progress more than 2 steps unless it is gross misconduct, so i've gone from 1 informal chat to dismissal in one go. game set and match i think;).

ok they could still deny my appeal because i've not been there for 12 months, and have no real protection in law, so i could only go for breach of contract, which is useless, but I can't see them doing that.

[emmaf01]

It might be an idea to go to someone from the union who is not based in your workplace- perhaps there is a national helpline you can call. Sometimes a rep based in the workplace can get clouded by being too close and if they aren't helping you then go up until someone will. We don't pay our union subs to get fobbed off when we really need help.

 

Suddenly dismissing someone who is ill is wrong- there are procedures to follow.

[c_allen]

thanx for your advice, I've edited it, my SS is doing his best, he has got me some good arguements, but I will be ready for everything they can try, I'm taking it as a good sign that they've asked me to provide evidence of my illness's, but even if they chose to ignore this, I don't think they'll be stupid enough to let this descision to stand, they should by now know i'll not let this drop, and i'll use every trick I can to get this dodgey discision overturned, i'm going to copy all letters and send them head office on monday, just to let them know how serious i am about this, they are a big well known company, who've had a difficult time following some very bad "press" via watchdog, so i don't think they'll risk more.

[Billyhunt]

Hi C Allen,

 

Just adding my thoughts,

 

As mentioned before , if your employer has not used the disciplinary procedure properly then a tribunal can award a minimum of 4 weeks pay as compensation if you claim for unfair dismissal. Normally you need to have worked for your employer for a year to make a claim unless you have been dismissed for something deemed as automatically unfair. You mentioned raising health and safety concerns which may count if this is linked. Have you worked for your employer for over a year? Apologies if you have mentioned this before. If you haven’t you may still be able to claim wrongful dismissal or unfair dismissal if automatic reason. For tribunal action to be successful, it is important to follow the disciplinary procedure fully so do as you are doing, appeal the decision attend all meetings and then apply to the employment tribunal once this has run its course. Remember there are time limits for doing so, so keep this in mind.

 

As you have done in your letter make sure your employer knows what action you want taken to resolve the matter, for example reinstating your employment. Work through the procedure and then apply to the tribunal service. Once you have applied, ACAS will contact you and the employer automatically to try arbitration before the tribunal takes place and often this can be successful. If you employer has acted wrongly and it seems as this is the case, they will be made aware very quickly and may decide to negotiate with you through ACAS before the tribunal date, so stick to your guns.

 

Good luck

 

Billy.

[c_allen]

Hi billy and thanx fro your reply,

I've worked there for 11 months, they are getting a reputation for sacking people after 11 months. Don't worry I will be sticking to my guns, this is not going away. There is no doubt that what they've done is wrongful, but I can't see a way to make it unfair:(.

I think it's likely they'll offer to reinstate me but with conditions, most likely that I drop my greivence, but I'm not doing that, if they try to blackmail me with that then their in more trouble.

[c_allen]

I've found out that the SS who went to the meeting with has refused to give a written statement,,,, WTH??? he has said that i only said i was unfit 3 times, i know it was a lot more than this, but it's beside the point anyway, as once is enough.

I've also found out that he has been gossiping about what was said in the meeting, wrong info,, what can I do about this.

[Billyhunt]

Hi C Allen,

 

I know it must be distressing to hear all that is going on while you are absent from work but my advice would be to concentrate on the disciplinary, don't get side tracked by gossip, just stay focused or else you will get stressed even more.

 

Just ignore all the other rubbish, let your employer write to you and deal with that. If you get reinstated and get the terms you want then slap in a grievence regarding the conduct of your SS and any one else. You can also complain to your union if you wish but might be best to do this once you have concluded the disciplinary procedure. I would though contact them and ask for someone else to represent you or be available to discuss your options with as you have no confidence in your current Shop Steward.

 

Good luck and stay focused,

 

Billy.

[emmaf01]

It might be an idea to approach the union direct (head office or national helpline) and ask for someone who can work with you on this matter. And someone who can point out to you SS that he needs to supply a written statement or at least find out why he won't officially.

[c_allen]

thanx for your replies,

He refused because he disagrees with part of my first letter, he thinks it will be detrimental to me, but i only want him to tell the truth, after all i was in no state to have the meeting, so my memory is not really going to be all that accurate, i was also very aggitated, i had problems understanding everything that was asked of me, I'm not saying i would accept everything he says as gospel, after all it's what i felt and understood that counts, but it would have been helpful to know his version of events before i called him for a wittness. I've said all this to the other SS, he's going to sort it out hopefully.

2 days and counting untill the appeal, I sent in another letter, roughly the same as the one above, but with more examples of procedure they didn't follow, more of thier own internal precedure they missed, i tried to keep it objective and less emotional, although i have made it plain that 10 working days for the appeal is having a bad effect on my mental and physical health, their own codes clearly state that all appeal will be within 5 working days

[c_allen]

Hi i've received that "evidence" the co are relying on,

the first sheet i look at is dated 30/10/2007, now this date is just after my 1st absense. so it's ok so far.

the first line says i'm invited to a meeting 21/12/2007:confused:, this is just after my second absense.

nor is the letter signed.

i've never seen this letter before!!!!!!

now this looks like they must really what rid of me, lol. does it look like a fabrication to anyone else?????

thoughts PLEASE.

[c_allen]

The first thing i'm going to ask in the appeal is

have you asked your occupational health advisor for details about my claimed illness’s, or asked for their opinion as to whether they would have a debilitating effect on my mental capacities re the 3/7/08 meeting????

IF YES, what was said?

IF NO, WHY NOT? I would have thought, given my 2 previous letters, that would be the VERY FIRST thing any investigation or appeal would do!

someone must have some thoughts or opinions????

feel free to voice them,PPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEEEEE

[c_allen]

well my appeal is at 10am today, has anyone got any last minute tips?

[fiestychick]

hi c-allen how did it go?

[c_allen]

not good,,,,,the meeting was adjorened due to health grouds, my health, i was a jibbering wreck, they made sure of that...........................

it seems that i am wasting my time, they have today paid me my notice. so i can't take this any further, even though they have disregarded my very limited rights, they have disregarded stat min procedure, HSE regs, thier own company policy, employment laws, i cannot take this any further, they quoted the same sentence for every point i raised,,,,

my advise to anyone who has been dismissed is, if they have not been employed for over 12 month is, however wrongly, is if you recieved notice, then save yourselves the hassle and heartache, and just roll over and play dead, YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, JUST GIVE UP, NO MATTER HOW WRONG THE DECISION IS, JUST MOVE ON, even though the company has shown they have a blatant disreguard for

1, laws.

2. HSE regs

3, their own co policy.

4, stat min procedure.

5, duty of care

JUST GIVE UP, DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME AND THEIRS, SAVE YOURSLF LOADS 0F HEARTACHE/BREAK.

GIVE IN, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS WHATSOEVER, THE BIG GUY WINS AGAIN, WHILE THE LITTLE GUY GET TRAMPLED UNDER THEIR HEEL

Edited July 17, 2008 by c_allen

[emmaf01]

Having had this happen to me a few years ago I know exactly where you're coming from. I did let it go and tried to move on, but it still angers me.

 

Even though I was employed under a scheme to find work for people with a disability, they got rid of me just before the 12 months were up for contrived reasons.

 

My only suggestion is to put your health first- get well, then see where you stand.

[chasin sunsets]

I agree, Health comes first. We have an applaing turnover of staff at m place of work, nearly 65%! I have been off sick 4 times in 12 months and have been told that if i am ill again this year then i will face the formal procedures..?...i think the company believes its own employment contract is actual Law, oh dear oh dear! I think they are on a hiding to nothing..seriously thinking of looking for another job..another thing, if I apply for a job, get it, take holidays (1 month) then leave for other job, is that fair do you think? especially as i have been treated like the proverbial?

[c_allen]

I can't believe i didn't notice just how many "may", "normally", Might", "Could" are included in my terms and conditions, and this under a labour government!!!!!!! WTF????????????????

there isn't one single definate in the whole of my T&Cs, and this is legal???????????????WTF???????????????????????????????

Edited July 17, 2008 by c_allen

[fiestychick]

not good,,,,,the meeting was adjorened due to health grouds, my health, i was a jibbering wreck, they made sure of that...........................

it seems that i am wasting my time, they have today paid me my notice. so i can't take this any further, even though they have disregarded my very limited rights, they have disregarded stat min procedure, HSE regs, thier own company policy, employment laws, i cannot take this any further, they quoted the same sentence for every point i raised,,,,

my advise to anyone who has been dismissed is, if they have not been employed for over 12 month is, however wrongly, is if you recieved notice, then save yourselves the hassle and heartache, and just roll over and play dead, YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, JUST GIVE UP, NO MATTER HOW WRONG THE DECISION IS, JUST MOVE ON, even though the company has shown they have a blatant disreguard for

1, laws.

2. HSE regs

3, their own co policy.

4, stat min procedure.

5, duty of care

 

C allen, I don't understand, if they have broken the law then surely it doesn't matter what they are sayin now? Are they legally right in what they have done? You say they have disregarded all of the above, in which case doesn't that mean that you have grounds to fight it?

 

I know you are poorly and it is not worth your health to go after these scumsuckers, but I'm just having difficulty understanding? What are the consequences of them doing what they have done in each instance, aren't they answerable to anyone about why they have done it?