CCA - Both parties to sign?

[Augmented13th]

Hello,

 

I have received a copy of my CCA with Aqua (Halifax) from 1st Credit today, I have had a good look over it and there are a few thing that strike me as being strange:confused:

 

It comes as two parts (separate pages), the first is entitled 'Your Priority Application Form' this has my personal details together with income and bank details.

 

The second page is entitled 'Credit Card Agreement Regulated By The Consumer Credit Act 1975' - however, there are no specific financial details on this page either, it has my signature only and it has not been signed on behalf of Halifax.

 

Does it need to have these details in order to comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974?

[PGH7447]

can you post it up so people can look over it, removing all personal details first

[Augmented13th]

can you post it up so people can look over it, removing all personal details first

 

I will give it ago .....

[Augmented13th]

can you post it up so people can look over it, removing all personal details first

 

Hope these are okay .... I can see the figures on the second document now ... I was looking for a 'table' layout and therefore didn't read it properly ... sorry about that:oops:

 

 

 

 

[PGH7447]

OK, says Priority application form for one thing.

 

Also says sign on page 3 so did you get three pages?

 

Halifax havent signed it,

 

you ticked the payment protection was this explained to you at the time, if not claim it back if they insist this is valid, hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge in CCA's can offer some further assistance here.

 

Is it valid, possibly

[Augmented13th]

Also says sign on page 3 so did you get three pages?

 

No, I only got 2 pages, but the page they sent with my signature on is page 3 ....

 

you ticked the payment protection was this explained to you at the time

 

No, it wasn't and PPI is something that I never sign up for ... so I'm not quite sure why I ticked that ..

[Augmented13th]

I would like to respond to 1st Credit later today and in order I do so appropriately it would be really helpful if I could get views on the validity of my CCA copy from more 'knowledgeable' CAG members ... if it is valid then I can deal with it accordingly.

[Augmented13th]

Bump:D

[Pinky69]

They have fulfilled part of your CCA request in that the document contains reference to a credit limit, reference to an interest rate and your signature. plus Terms and Conditions. They have not totally fulfilled the requirements of the CCA 1974 for a copy of the agreement in that they must also send statements showing what has been paid and what is outstanding.

 

In the event of court action they would have to produce the original and they creditor hasn't signed it which means it was never properly executed.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 61 (1) states:

 

A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed

manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.

 

This being the case they don't have a valid legal document with which to pursue this alleged debt.

 

 

 

 

[creditcardmug]

I have to say this is pretty close to being a bonafide CCA, however i'm a bit concerned about the bit where it says "we will decide your credit limit", where does it say what the limit was at the time you signed?.

 

Also i can't see where it says they can vary the interest (i presume they have done) i do think that rate is excessive i would never have agreed to that.

 

IMHO i think you're walking on thin ice here, unless you get something more to go on when i comes to the court stade

[davefirewalker]

IMHO its enforceable.....

 

"we will decide your credit limit" is a valid statement

 

non signature is not really an issue...they could sign it just before the case if they wanted to.

 

the judge would have to decide how much you would have been predjudiced by non signature of the creditor.... not much i feel

 

with that agreement I would not chance it....sorry

 

Dave

[sosumi]

Who blacked out the name and wrote '1st Credit' on the top?

[Pinky69]

They could sign it before the case - but you have a copy that was sent to you with a covering letter and it was unsigned at the time you received it, therefore it would be easily argued that it was signed in retrospect and not at the time the document was drawn up. I raised exactly this issue with Cabot and they closed their file long ago. If the creditor hasn't signed the original at the time of the alleged agreement, the agreement wasn't properly executed they haven't got a leg to stand on.

[davefirewalker]

It wouldnt matter unfortunately....

 

as long as s61 and 127(3) has been complied with ie you have signed a doc with the prescribed terms....you dont have a chance

 

see the Rankine judgement posted on my thread here....> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1554322.html

 

they ended up with at least £40,000 in costs....OUCH!!

 

it depends on the judge, but if you have signed a doc that has the precribed terms, it wont matter that the creditor hasnt signed, if it gets to court.

 

on the other hand it might be enough to worry a dca!......your call

 

Dave

[Pinky69]

There is nothing in the Rankine Judgement that refers to Section 61 and Section 61 requires the creditor's signature as well as the the debtor's signature. Therefore in the poster's case Section 61 has not been complied with.

[davefirewalker]

I mentioned the Rankine judgement to show how a case could go..(worst scenario)

 

I am trying to give good advice, in that a DCA might be fooled on a temporary basis...but if it got to court then a judge would be a different issue.....and for example I quote CCA1974 s.127(3)

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

rgds

 

Dave

[Augmented13th]

Thank you all for your input on this .... sadly, it really just confirms my own thoughts on the matter, it's not the end of the world just a few hundred quid - I will see if I can reinstate the 'nominal payments' with 1st Credit ... can cope with £1.50 per month:)

 

Who blacked out the name and wrote '1st Credit' on the top?

It was me who blacked out the written information on the form, however the '1st Credit' narration was already on it when I received it ... assume it was Aqua/Halifax that marked up! Edited June 27, 2008 by Augmented13th

[Augmented13th]

Thinking about it .... maybe I will raise the issue of 'creditors signature' with 1st Credit and see what happens before I roll over and start paying them again ....

[Pinky69]

Also, raise the issue about them not having sent you statements. I take Dave's point about Section 60. There are things I would do under that Section to prove it hadn't been fulfilled but they are not things I would recommend to a poster! Better to be on the safe side.

[Augmented13th]

Thanks Pinky, I'll do that, actually it would be interesting to see just how much of the debt is made up of charges!

[Augmented13th]

Better to be on the safe side

I'm in quite a good position to take risks .. I'm single and live in rented accommodation, I have no assets whatsoever with only IB as an income .... they won't get much out of me if I loose:D Edited June 27, 2008 by Augmented13th

[davefirewalker]

I take Dave's point about Section 60. There are things I would do under that Section......... but they are not things I would recommend to a poster! Better to be on the safe side.

 

Hi pinky

 

I am at the sort of cutting edge at the moment...... I am trying things That I DEFINITELY would not recommend to a new user...

 

As far as augmented goes I would query it with the dca and go as far as threatening court action to see what transpires.... certainley worth a DSAR just to panic / delay them.. and any charges will make any default notice invalid.

 

Dave

Edited June 28, 2008 by davefirewalker

[Augmented13th]

Hello Dave,

 

Is there a template letter covering these issues that I could send to 1st Credit?

[davefirewalker]

Bit late at the moment....head too full of vino....will post tommorrow

 

rgds

 

Dave

[Augmented13th]

Bit late at the moment....head too full of vino....will post tommorrow

 

rgds

 

Dave

 

 

A bit of a headache this morning then Dave?