Liability orders & Bailiff's "Fees"

[Robdblynd]

I was asked by friends with a problem if I could help and as I can't I'm asking you knowledgeable folk on here if you can give them some info.

 

They've had a visit from a bailiff with 2 liability orders for council tax arrears which they thought was being paid alongside their council tax payment. They contacted the council after his visit to be told that no, they weren't paying these orders, they were for a property they'd lived in previously. They were very surprised because they were unaware there were arrears or liability orders from this property but not being able to prove that things had been paid up to date they agreed to pay the arrears directly to the council at an agreed amount per month.

 

That's the history, now for the query, the bailiff said that they would have to pay 2 "fees" of £24.50 as there were 2 liability orders. I've had a look around and can't find anything for more than one liability order, so the question is .... is it correct that 2 fees will have to be paid despite the bailiff only making one visit to the house??

 

Any help in clarifying the situation would be appreciated as they don't want to fall foul of a set of bailiffs, with all that implies.

[WWOW]

If nobody here knows the answer then ask the Judge. But first, ask the bailiff which court certificated him and send a Form 4.

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

 

Give a brief detail and ask whether a bailiff can defraud a debtor by charging multiple fees for the same visit.

[Robdblynd]

Thanks WWOW ..... I have spoken to both Magistrates Court and the CAB for them and finally, late this afternoon CAB rang back and said that the bailiff is allowed to charge per liability order ..... so in this case that's 2 fees of £24.50p.

 

Apparently liability orders are different to ordinary debt visits where only one fee is chargeable.

 

 

So, for anyone else in this situation the answer appears to be that you can be charged a visit fee per liability order.

[tomtubby]

They are both individual orders so can be enforced separately. The purpose of the first visit is to "levy upon goods". However the problem arises if the bailiff

tries to levy on the SAME goods for both debts. He CANNOT do this.

 

In theory, if he were to gain entry and levy upon goods inside the house for debt one he can then levy on a car owned by the debtor for debt two. This is permitted.

[I've got no money]

Personally I wouldn't pay the bailiff fees. Tell the council that the payment you are making to them is in respect of arrears of council tax only and that it does not include any payment for bailiff fees.

[Robdblynd]

Thanks Tomtubby, that information clarifies things greatly.

 

I've passed on the info and hopefully things will get sorted now.

 

@ IGNM ... the payment to the council doesn't include bailiff fees anyway, that's a separate issue. They're paying the council direct for the alleged arrears but because the bailiff visited (as Tom says, to levy on goods) then their charge is separate and has to be paid.

[kermit2482]

Thanks Tomtubby, that information clarifies things greatly.

 

I've passed on the info and hopefully things will get sorted now.

 

@ IGNM ... the payment to the council doesn't include bailiff fees anyway, that's a separate issue. They're paying the council direct for the alleged arrears but because the bailiff visited (as Tom says, to levy on goods) then their charge is separate and has to be paid.

 

Absolutely right 100% and why oh why do people constantly wish to try and avoiud a reasonable fee of £24.50 for the bailiffs, i wonder how many people on here would be quibbling if they did not get paid for work they had done, i suspect it would be in their thousands, Bailiffs dont work for nothing neither so think on folks!!!!!

[WWOW]

why do people constantly wish to try and avoiud a reasonable fee of £24.50 for the bailiffs,

 

Explain that to a single parent living on £62.25 a week.

 

Bailiffs dont work for nothing neither so think on folks!!!!!

 

Nobody is forcing them to be bailiffs.

[I've got no money]

I have to say that if the bailiffs want paying then they will have to ssue separate proceedings for their fees - my advice has always been don't pay them - in terms of the Local Authority what used to happen with some Local Authorities was that if that if somebody paid them direct they would divert that money to pay the bailiffs fees before they paid the council tax. That was why we, acting on advice from counsel, told our clients to expressly tell the local authority that they were only paying council tax arrears and not bailiff fees.

 

I have never forgotten attending a course, many years ago, at the Birmingham Settlement where a representative from a well known bailiffs firm told me that they were actually doing debtors a favour...

 

I am sorry but the bailiff industry is parasitic and exploits the most needy members of society often charging unlawful and extortionate fees. They don't deserve anything...reasonable or otherwise. In the global scheme of things payment of their "fees" lawful or otherwise comes down at the bottom of the list...

[tomtubby]

I've got no money

 

"Birmingham Settlement"....wow...that also takes me back !!!!!

 

I even have some old articles and books in the office......

 

S

[kermit2482]

Explain that to a single parent living on £62.25 a week.

 

 

 

Nobody is forcing them to be bailiffs.

 

But someone has to do it or nobody would pay anything and then the economy could collapse, not that gordon brown isn't doing a good enough job of that by himself!!!

[caledfwlch]

Absolutely right 100% and why oh why do people constantly wish to try and avoiud a reasonable fee of £24.50 for the bailiffs, i wonder how many people on here would be quibbling if they did not get paid for work they had done, i suspect it would be in their thousands, Bailiffs dont work for nothing neither so think on folks!!!!!

 

The difference is people have contracts and the like to rely on. There is no contract between an individual and the bailiff, the debtor owes the bailiff no consideration or moral obiligation. The bailif chooses to spend his life carrying out a deeply unpleasant and morally offensive and archaic job. The more of us who make bailiffs go whistle and pay the creditors direct the better, and maybe baillifs themselves will start suffering financial difficulties and find out what life is like for the rest of us.

 

Harsh maybe, but I believe that the bailiff profession is so tainted and mired in corruption by a vast majority as shown in many many cases and documentrys on TV and NOT the few bad apples that whinging baillifs try and point the finger at, that the entire profession can only be cured by no longer existing. There are far better, more efficient and cheaper tools available in a modern civilised western nation, than sending a big thug to bully citizens and misrepresent the law.

 

The legally acceptable actions and rights of baillifs and the law behind it prove without a doubt that the position of bailiff exists to punish people for getting into debt, not to sort the debt. Just another way to punish citizens since debtor prisons are no longer politically acceptable.

 

If I ever have the misfortune to have one call round, I will go out of my way to make his life annoying, including photographing him, his car and licence plate, recording any conversations, giving long defunct debit cards from closed accounts for him to write the numbers down on and so on, generally let him work as hard as possible/be annoying as possible then wack out the old statutory dec to disarm him.

 

Whilst the new laws once in effect will probably see baillifs being attacked, it would be far better to waste their time, and cost them money through wasting that time Maybe back to that poll tax day of action where vigilantes can follow baillifs around all day and ensure that anyone they visit gets on the spot advice on what the bailiffs real rights and powers are Also CAB should advise people that as soon as they look likely to have bailifs coming to get a friend or family member to do a statutory declaration, thus denying a baillif his primary weapon.

 

The important thing is a debtor only owes a moral obligation to a creditor NOT to the bailiffs. I appreciate that being a Bailiff carries a lot of physical risk, and its a nasty unpleasant job, but its a job the individual has chosen to take, if you sign up to clean sewers you cant complain that your clothes smell of faeces.

 

If there was no alternative to the bailiff, like there is none to traffic wardens, then I would appreciate that they need to exist, but there ARE plenty of alternatives.

[kermit2482]

The difference is people have contracts and the like to rely on. There is no contract between an individual and the bailiff, the debtor owes the bailiff no consideration or moral obiligation. The bailif chooses to spend his life carrying out a deeply unpleasant and morally offensive and archaic job. The more of us who make bailiffs go whistle and pay the creditors direct the better, and maybe baillifs themselves will start suffering financial difficulties and find out what life is like for the rest of us.

 

Harsh maybe, but I believe that the bailiff profession is so tainted and mired in corruption by a vast majority as shown in many many cases and documentrys on TV and NOT the few bad apples that whinging baillifs try and point the finger at, that the entire profession can only be cured by no longer existing. There are far better, more efficient and cheaper tools available in a modern civilised western nation, than sending a big thug to bully citizens and misrepresent the law.

 

The legally acceptable actions and rights of baillifs and the law behind it prove without a doubt that the position of bailiff exists to punish people for getting into debt, not to sort the debt. Just another way to punish citizens since debtor prisons are no longer politically acceptable.

 

If I ever have the misfortune to have one call round, I will go out of my way to make his life annoying, including photographing him, his car and licence plate, recording any conversations, giving long defunct debit cards from closed accounts for him to write the numbers down on and so on, generally let him work as hard as possible/be annoying as possible then wack out the old statutory dec to disarm him.

 

Whilst the new laws once in effect will probably see baillifs being attacked, it would be far better to waste their time, and cost them money through wasting that time Maybe back to that poll tax day of action where vigilantes can follow baillifs around all day and ensure that anyone they visit gets on the spot advice on what the bailiffs real rights and powers are Also CAB should advise people that as soon as they look likely to have bailifs coming to get a friend or family member to do a statutory declaration, thus denying a baillif his primary weapon.

 

The important thing is a debtor only owes a moral obligation to a creditor NOT to the bailiffs. I appreciate that being a Bailiff carries a lot of physical risk, and its a nasty unpleasant job, but its a job the individual has chosen to take, if you sign up to clean sewers you cant complain that your clothes smell of faeces.

 

If there was no alternative to the bailiff, like there is none to traffic wardens, then I would appreciate that they need to exist, but there ARE plenty of alternatives.

 

And what would you suggest as an alternative then????

 

Also i would add that im only 5ft 10 and in no way a thug as you seem to generalise, in fact i have letters at my company that say quite the opposite and most people are quite happy to deal with me as im a fair guy, however i wont sympathise with wont pay , the same as i dont sympathise with people that choose to smoke but cant pay their council tax or other debts, for the record i hate the council tax too, however its a fact of life unfortunately. I hope this clarifies a few things for you .

[WWOW]

The difference is people have contracts and the like to rely on. There is no contract between an individual and the bailiff, the debtor owes the bailiff no consideration or moral obiligation.

 

A debt is ordered by a court and the bailiffs fees are legislated. No contract between a bailiff and debtor is needed.

[r9rej]

It might help if less lies and intimidation went on. I have been at the hands of these so called professionals and believe me they guy concerned would have won no prizes for being honest. Luckily for me I stood up to the threats and did my home work and the tables are now turning!

 

I do think people should pay their debts and there is a big difference between can't pay and won't pay but lets be fair here the system is open to abuse and needs to be fixed.

[I've got no money]

Kermit Ah - so you are a bailiff/high court enforcement officer. You must be one of that very small hand full of nice private bailiffs. I have to say I know that they must exist somewhere its' just that I've never met one. That said I have met some very nice County Court Bailiffs.

 

Every post on I have read on this this forum complains that the bailiff in question has done something wrong - ranging from excessive fees to bullying and intimidation. Whilst there is a remedy in the sense that you can complain to the court. That remedy is more illusory than real. In my view equitable set off - don't pay the bailiffs.

[tonycee]

A debt is ordered by a court and the bailiffs fees are legislated.

 

That dosent stop them from blatantly and fraudulantly applying whatever amount they think they can get away with.

 

I have a liability order for £766.

I deliberately allowed it to get to bailiff stage.

No problems, i will pay it now.

What i also have, in writing, is the proof that they have fraudulantly applied an extra £532.50p in unlawful charges to my account.

 

No WPO

No Levy

 

Nothing except a letter pushed through the door that contains blatant lies on what they are here for.

 

Just two weeks ago i stood on my doorstep with a bailiff and completely humiliated him in from of his "minder".

 

What amazed me most of all was my belief that he didnt even know that legislation exists to regulate charges.

 

He even applied another £230 for that visit. (Piers Morgan)

 

I offered there and then to pay their £42.50p charges, and advised that now i have my proof, (x 3 visits ) i will pay the council direct.

 

He crawled back down my drive, and slid back into the pit from whence he came.

 

Be STRONG people.

 

They CAN be beaten.

 

Good Luck.

 

Sorry to hi jack thread.

[I've got no money]

tonycee - go for it - though it makes you wonder how many people struggling on low incomes actually pay their grossly inflated and unlawful fees - regrettably many do.

[tonycee]

They play on peoples fear and lack of knowledge.

 

If we can "save" just one person from ther clutches, it will have been worth it.

[caledfwlch]

And what would you suggest as an alternative then????

 

Also i would add that im only 5ft 10 and in no way a thug as you seem to generalise, in fact i have letters at my company that say quite the opposite and most people are quite happy to deal with me as im a fair guy, however i wont sympathise with wont pay , the same as i dont sympathise with people that choose to smoke but cant pay their council tax or other debts, for the record i hate the council tax too, however its a fact of life unfortunately. I hope this clarifies a few things for you .

 

 

Well, automated recovery by court order through Tax Codes and the benefit system immediately stand out as a far easier, quicker, cheaper (for both creditors, court and the debtor) method of recovering debts. Everyone is either on benefit or working, the small number who are on neither and seemingly no income , well, what exactly is a bailiff or the court going to do if entry is refused anyway?

 

Set it up, and make sure its out in the public knowledge, if you dont sort out or set up a payment plan a fair and reasonable amount will be deducted literally at source, no need to have oral examinations thus raising costs to establish employment details or bank details, this also stop the embarressment of your company being hit with an AoE order.

 

Truthfully, how many council tax payers do you meet who genuinely wont pay as opposed to cant pay? I would imagine the figures to be far lower than with regard to parking tickets and the like.

 

Yes, its terrible about people addicted to smoking owing debts isnt it, also they really should only go shopping to Lidl's or nettos and get the bare minimum basic cheapest as possible food, they should get rid of their tv and therefore the tv licence, not dare pay for internet, dont go out at all, just sit in a bare house, only leaving for work for several years, because obviously if you owe debts, then you are not allowed to have any sort of life, and god forbid they ever dare have a drink of alcohol! we should also ban people with cars from driving/owing them if they owe debts, unless that vehicle is absolutely essential to get to work.

[caledfwlch]

They play on peoples fear and lack of knowledge.

 

If we can "save" just one person from ther clutches, it will have been worth it.

 

Tony, have you been to the police station yet to report the Bailiff for attempted financial fraud/extortion under the new fraud acts? I suspect attending in person with print outs of the acts and bailiff laws regarding charges would get more of a result than a phone call, though you should also ring to get a crime no! Methinks telling the council they could be liable for attempted fraud might be an idea too!

[kermit2482]

Well, automated recovery by court order through Tax Codes and the benefit system immediately stand out as a far easier, quicker, cheaper (for both creditors, court and the debtor) method of recovering debts. Everyone is either on benefit or working, the small number who are on neither and seemingly no income , well, what exactly is a bailiff or the court going to do if entry is refused anyway?

 

Set it up, and make sure its out in the public knowledge, if you dont sort out or set up a payment plan a fair and reasonable amount will be deducted literally at source, no need to have oral examinations thus raising costs to establish employment details or bank details, this also stop the embarressment of your company being hit with an AoE order.

 

Truthfully, how many council tax payers do you meet who genuinely wont pay as opposed to cant pay? I would imagine the figures to be far lower than with regard to parking tickets and the like.

 

Yes, its terrible about people addicted to smoking owing debts isnt it, also they really should only go shopping to Lidl's or nettos and get the bare minimum basic cheapest as possible food, they should get rid of their tv and therefore the tv licence, not dare pay for internet, dont go out at all, just sit in a bare house, only leaving for work for several years, because obviously if you owe debts, then you are not allowed to have any sort of life, and god forbid they ever dare have a drink of alcohol! we should also ban people with cars from driving/owing them if they owe debts, unless that vehicle is absolutely essential to get to work.

 

 

To be perfectly honest here i thought when i read the first couple of paragraphs here that you could actually make some kind of sense, then i read your last couple of ramblings and realised that perhaps i had better not listen to your ramblings, afterall thats what i made of the last paragraph for sure!!

 

I am not totally against people having a life however priority debts are priority debts and in the past when times have been hard for me too i have had to tighten the belt until such times as things are better and YES i do expect others to do the same too!!!

[tonycee]

Tony, have you been to the police station yet to report the Bailiff for attempted financial fraud/extortion under the new fraud acts? I suspect attending in person with print outs of the acts and bailiff laws regarding charges would get more of a result than a phone call, though you should also ring to get a crime no! Methinks telling the council they could be liable for attempted fraud might be an idea too!

 

I have been having problems with these mobsters for 4 years,

 

and before you lecture me Mr kermit2482, my circumstances are vastly different from those who wont pay.

 

I fear that their unlawful levy on a hired van that was parked outside my house, (plus next doors wheelbarrow:o) will be sufficient for them to get away with this one.

 

So.

 

Rightlly or wrongly, and again i dont care what you think as bailiffs, i have decided not to pay as yet.

 

I am deliberately inviting another visit to see what their actions are this time.

 

Watch this space..

[I've got no money]

Bailiff fees are not a priority debt - council tax is a priority debt - because if you don't pay it ultimately (albeit it isn't very likely) you can go to prison for non payment.

 

I'm not being difficult but isn't this all getting a bit personal - admittedly my previous post probably didn't help. I thought that the purpose of the forum was to give people advice on the most effective ways to deal with debts they may or may not have rather than judge thyem or indeed judge other posters.

[kermit2482]

Bailiff fees are not a priority debt - council tax is a priority debt - because if you don't pay it ultimately (albeit it isn't very likely) you can go to prison for non payment.

 

I'm not being difficult but isn't this all getting a bit personal - admittedly my previous post probably didn't help. I thought that the purpose of the forum was to give people advice on the most effective ways to deal with debts they may or may not have rather than judge thyem or indeed judge other posters.

 

 

I never said bailiff fees are a priority debt, i said QUOTE ( priority debts ) did not mention the bailiff fees, and if as you say Prison is most unlikely, I can personally assure you that our warrant officers are very active in certain parts of the Westcountry at least and have arrested several lately! Anyway i dont wish to get personal either as i feel we just need to hear it from the bailiffs perspective from time to time, As i say to all that have the misfortune of coming across me, its not personal its just a job.

 

I will always try and give sound advice too and if it means a bailiff is in the wrong then so be it and i would back the person whom has been wronged to the hilt.