Shoosmiths and Nat West

[Docman]

I would not be surprised for the elves to send what they consider to be the docs so that they arrive with you just before the hearing. Just early enough to scare you but too late to get legal advice or indeed examine the documents properly. I'm not sure if this position is deliberate or is just the result of incompetance.

 

At the hearing, the tatic is to claim the documents (such as an unenforceable application form instead of a CCA) are put before the judge with the appropriate amount of grovelling by Shoos. It then takes a strong judge to throw out their case - and an even stronger defendant to argue against them.

 

All you can do is prepare your defence properly. In this case, lack of an enforceable CCA and no DN. If you feel the documents have been supplied too late, say so and ask for a further adjournment. Politely remind the judge that both parties should be treated as equals and since they have had several adjounments, you should be granted time to examine any late documents. Of course, this is a worst case - the judge could throw out their application since there is no CCA.

[vexlitigant]

Hi Docman

 

I would love to but cash flow just after xmas makes this a non-starter at the moment. They will have had their 31.14 request by now and I will be laying out my defence this weekend so its ready.

 

If you are working this will be 75 quid i think. If you aren't, then it is free. Just a tip

 

I've been thinking about Shoos application and I'm interested to see what the judge says. I am tempted to write a letter in response to their N244 so the judge has my view on it. The letter would go along the lines of

1) NW failed to supply any relevant (and required) documentation to date including agreements, required notices and AQ. AT - Just remember this may well be because you have not requested them (refer back to the point they made about not receiving a section 77 request) I am only playing devils advocate here

2) NW requested several stays but took no action to find resolution

3) NW seem to be doing everything in their power to keep from presenting their case or allowing me to present mine. Am starting to think that Docman is right. Deliberate brinkmanship.

4) I haven't been able to put up a defence as I am still waiting for required info to allow me to do this. You should have this very quickly. My CPR 31.14 request responded to in 4 days !!!

4) The quickest way to resolve this is to get all documents to all parties, allow me to put in defence and then have full hearing.

5) In view of the above a hearing for this application is just wasting court time.

 

This would be pretty much my defence in a hearing but I can't help feeling Shoos shouldn't even get one.

 

Part of me wonders if NW have elves going through their filing cabinets in the faint hope of find something they are required to keep so are just buying time. That or they hare hoping for Mr Brown to offer to pay instead.

 

Vex

[AT99]

The court have provided a court date for April, so I'll wait to see what arrives from my 31.14 request. This should let me know their full position.

 

Is there any point me putting in an application to strike out their claim now?

[vexlitigant]

Hi AT

 

How long has your 31.14 request been with them?

[AT99]

Hi Vex

 

It was signed for on 16th Jan.

[vexlitigant]

I reckon you'll receive something in todays post, and very likely before the end of the week, otherwise you can push ahead with ap to strike out.

[Docman]

Thinking about this last night, it might be advisable not to file your own N244 to strike out the claim but to just to file a witness statement setting out what in effect would be your defence. That way, the judge couldn't ignore your view as he could if you just wrote to the court. And you don't shell out 75 quid.

 

You would have to send a copy of your witness statement to Shoos at least 7 days before the hearing but that is only what they will do with you. I suggest you wait until the end of the month to see if they respond to your last letter. If they don't respond, send them a polite reminder and carry on reminding them every couple of weeks until the end of March. In your witness statment you will then list all these reminders (with copies) to show to the judge you have very patiently but persistently tried to get documents from Shoos and that all they have done is to ignore you.

[bazaar]

Docman I like it, a very cunning plan if I may say so;)

[AT99]

Well Vex, you were correct. I received a letter from Shoos and I am a little surprised. I was on my way out of the door to work so didn't have a chance to go through the N244 application until now to check things out.

 

Shoos wrote "We write further to your letter dated X. The necessary documents were filed with our application to the court dated X of which you have recieved a copy. We shall now await a hearing date from the court."

 

Now I take that to be a full response to my 31.14 request. There is no sign of an agreement or mention of it in their application to strike out. They are trying to imply my acceptance of the loan on the basis I have never denied having a loan, had the funds transferred to my account and made repayments on the loan. They never mention the word agreement.

 

Considering Docmans comments it seems it might be a good idea to give them nowhere to turn in the court hearing and I have just under 3 months to position this nicely if they can't produce documents.

 

My first thought it to write to Shoos again. This time confirming the lack of any agreement and that I require a copy of one; reminding them of their duties to find documents requested or tell me what they have and will do regarding my 31.14 request.

 

There is no DN or FD either but these can wait.

[vexlitigant]

Well Vex, you were correct. I received a letter from Shoos and I am a little surprised. I was on my way out of the door to work so didn't have a chance to go through the N244 application until now to check things out.

 

Hard luck AT. A few more days and you could have been laughing

 

Shoos wrote "We write further to your letter dated X. The necessary documents were filed with our application to the court dated X of which you have recieved a copy. We shall now await a hearing date from the court."

 

Now I am not sure how you should respond to that. "The necessary docs were filed with the court dated x" When was that?? Is that a recent occurance?? "Of which you have received a copy" - that's total BS, unless i have misread a post on your thread??

 

I suggest you keep checking to see if anyone with more info on this kind of response come through. However, Docmans suggestion is looking pretty damn sexy right now AT

 

Now I take that to be a full response to my 31.14 request. There is no sign of an agreement or mention of it in their application to strike out. They are trying to imply my acceptance of the loan on the basis I have never denied having a loan, had the funds transferred to my account and made repayments on the loan. They never mention the word agreement.

 

Considering Docmans comments it seems it might be a good idea to give them nowhere to turn in the court hearing and I have just under 3 months to position this nicely if they can't produce documents. Agreed, BUT i'd still canvass for an additional opinion on this site. Perhaps Surfaceagentx20, PT2537, or Steven4064 may chip in. NOT that i think Docman has the wrong idea, but i'd like to be doubly sure (No offence Docman )

 

My first thought it to write to Shoos again. This time confirming the lack of any agreement and that I require a copy of one; reminding them of their duties to find documents requested or tell me what they have and will do regarding my 31.14 request.

 

There is no DN or FD either but these can wait.

Sure they can wait, but they are of equal importance, as it is part of the process !

 

 

 

Again, best regards, Vex

[AT99]

Hi Vex

 

Thanks for response, useful as ever. They claim they have issued all documentation in the N244 application issued at the end of Dec. There is nothing in there except statements and screen prints from their antiquated looking system that doesn't even print correctly.

 

Can anyone else offer advice on next moves?

[Docman]

Considering Docmans comments it seems it might be a good idea to give them nowhere to turn in the court hearing and I have just under 3 months to position this nicely if they can't produce documents. Agreed, BUT i'd still canvass for an additional opinion on this site. Perhaps Surfaceagentx20, PT2537, or Steven4064 may chip in. NOT that i think Docman has the wrong idea, but i'd like to be doubly sure (No offence Docman )[/QUOTE]

 

Absolutely no problem, Vex.

 

Shoos wrote "We write further to your letter dated X. The necessary documents were filed with our application to the court dated X of which you have recieved a copy. We shall now await a hearing date from the court."

 

 

I'm never sure whether Shoos employ morons as lawyers or just have arogant non-lawyers as employees. Being charitable, I suppose that they haven't actually assigned a lawyer to READ anything on the case yet, hence the repeat applications for stays. They just had a secretary submit the same application. With any luck, they won't put a real lawyer on the case until its too late. Instread, they take a risk that the defendant won't turn up, or they can bully/talk a lot of hot air to a judge who isn't clued up on this area of the law.

 

Regretablly, if a defendant isn't on top of the case, a judge who doesn't know this area of the law (and doesn't want to show or admit that in fromt of a qualified solicitor from Shoos) might accept the hocus pocus arguments that get put forward and award judgement against a defendant. Worst case I know, but it could happen. All you can do is prepare your case.

 

They might be thinking that since you haven't denied entering the loan, then you accept you had a loan. Just remember the first paragraph in your defence...

 

"Defence

 

1. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof."

 

I suggest you respond to their letter by repeating your request for documentation, as set out in your 31.14 request. Keep reminding them every couple of weeks, so that when ithe case gets to court, you can produce a wad of requests that they will have ignored.

[vexlitigant]

Hi At / Docman

 

The point that Docman makes about the quality of the paralegals, and solicitors is a recurring theme, and one which i admit is a recurring scenrtaio in my head.

 

Its like this: Every time i have had correspondence from Shoos, the name of the paralegal / solicitor changes!!! I would like to know if anyone has an opinion or knowledge of the process by which a case file is continually moved around on a 'lazy susan' / 'carousel' method at large firms such as these and they think (or hope) that there will be continuity? How are briefings made?

 

Now, onto the point about attempting to be right on top of this when it goes to court, i have stumbled across the 'Buddy System' on this site, and dropped my postcode in to see who had 'volunteered' to be a Buddy, and how close they lived to me. It came back with LOADS! So - short question - Is this accurate, and do mant caggers use it (i.e. request a Buddy to accompany them to court), and have many caggers actually been a 'Buddy'?

 

Thanks, Vex

Edited January 22, 2009 by vexlitigant
spelling

[lmrn37]

Subscibing. I too am in the same boat

[lmrn37]

sub

[AT99]

Hi IMRN37, welcome to this long running saga.

 

I sent another letter to Shoos this week asking for all of the paperwork. I guess this will be the situation until the court hearing.

 

I would not be surprised to see this one go ignored.

 

Could I ask peoples opinion on not using recorded/special delivery for letters. How does it stand in court if you can't prove delivery of a letter?

[AT99]

As expected Shoos have ignored my latest letter. I assume because it doesn't come backed by some form of legislation such as CPR (as they are taking the line they have responded to this).

 

Does anyone have any ideas on what I could include to gain a response? Is it worth pointing out that I have nothing to defend until they provide an agreement?

 

I have also been thinking about my defence for the application hearing. As a basic outline, my points would be;

 

1) No agreement

2) No default notice

3) No termination notice

4) NW haven't filed AQ

5) NW only filed application after further stay was refused. What were stays for? (I think this is relevant as their claim is that I have no chance of defending claim and this action does not reflect that)

6) Points 1-4 have prevented me from being able to respond in any manner and they have ignored numerous requests for correct documentation.

 

Can anyone add anything else?

 

Do I need to serve a witness statement & docs 7 days before for an N244 hearing or is it just about turning up and proving I have a chance of defending the claim?

 

Alex

[Docman]

I think a witness statement is needed when you are producing documents in court or where you are not a 'real' person eg a company. If you are producing douments, I believe these have to be served at least 7 days before the hearing. You should also send a 'Certificate of Service' form N215 to the court, just in case the other side dispute the service. The Certificate is available on the Courts Service website at http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n215_e.pdf

 

If you do submit a witness statement, I suggest you produce copies of all the corresponce you have sent to Shoos, just to show how useless they are.

[AT99]

Shoos finally found the time to respond to my last letter. Thats a day under a month to respond.

 

They are now taking the line that they have not been ordered by the court to disclose the documents I have asked for. It seems only the court is going to force their hand to show or admit they dont have required docs.

 

They also imply that I must send my evidence to them 14 days before the hearing; they are either hoping I send them my defence early or it is another error from them.

 

They have filed a witness statement with the the N244. Does this mean they cannot produce anymore documents or amend their defence without the Judges permission?

 

I know exactly how to respond to this letter, they seem to think they can hide behind the legal process when it suits them but ignore it when it doesn't.

 

I'm almost looking forward to going to court.

[vexlitigant]

Hi AT

 

Having vaguely similar issues w.r.t. then releasing the required bits in line with the courts order. Before i go on, i must say how particularly jaundiced i am with the way this can be ignored. If an order says that x needs to be done by xx, they why would the failure to do so go unpunished?

 

Anyway, in respect of your question on whether they can 'find' or produce any more documents, i would check to see how they responded to Standard Disclosure (if filed at all).

 

ALSO there is provision for late filing of documents that they may seek to rely upon. If you read your N265 Standard Disclosure form on the last page, it says:

 

"I understand that I must inform the court and the other parties immediately if any further document required to be disclosed by rule 31.6 comes into my control at any time before conclusion"

 

Thanks, Vex

[Out4Revenge]

Hi all, correct me if i'm wrong ( could be cofusing one thread with another) but didn't you get a letter off shoo's saying that they didn't attach docs to original claim form, as it was through northamton? if so how can they claim that you received them with the claim pack? if that makes sense;)

[AT99]

Hi Out for Revenge

 

No, I think you have confused my thread with another. NW/Shoos have avoided mentioning the agreement let alone attempting to explain why they haven't provided a copy. Their N244 witness statement does not refer to an agreement; the first point they make is that funds were transferred on x date, nothing about signing an agreement, which leads me to think they really don't have a copy.

 

The days are ticking until the court date and I will be putting together my defence next week. Hopefully this will finally flush out what paperwork they do and don't have. Any pointers or ideas anyone has would be most welcome.

[vexlitigant]

Hi AT

 

Hope you are well

 

Deadline for my Witness Statements passed yesterday, and nothing came in post from Shoos. They misssed deadline for SD too:roll:

 

I can't remember if you have answered this before, but did you ask them for a copy of the agreement via a CPR 31 request??

 

Looking at your last thread here, it appears that as they have not mentioned an agreement (are you sure they haven't referred to it even once in your correspondence), but have filed a witness statement, then they are going to court on the basis of the moral argument - You have had the moeny, so you have a moral responsibility to pay the money back. Either that or they are playing bluff with you, and they are hoping you bottle it before they do??

 

 

All the best, Vex

[AT99]

Hi Vex

 

This mornings post has bought about a dramatic change. I am now in possession of a letter from NW admitting they have no agreement and therefore are unable to enforce repayment.

 

They will keepn reporting it to the credit reference agency though.

 

So a major leap forward, two questions I have no though;

1) What about the court hearing? I presume they have to cancel or is this now my entire defence?

2) I presume they cannot report a default so I should follow this up next.

[vexlitigant]

Hi Vex

 

This month

rnings post has bought about a dramatic change. I am now in possession of a letter from NW admitting they have no agreement and therefore are unable to enforce repayment.

 

They will keepn reporting it to the credit reference agency though.

 

So a major leap forward, two questions I have no though;

1) What about the court hearing? I presume they have to cancel or is this now my entire defence?

2) I presume they cannot report a default so I should follow this up next.

 

I don't know the process to follow now that you have this info ( i suggest you bump, or PM P Wilton). It's not the kind of clear admittance that you expect when so far into this process, however, i suspect that it is straightforward, but how to do that - i don't know.

 

Cheers (you lucky sod)

 

Vex

Edited March 19, 2009 by vexlitigant
typo