Help me please!

[Jodieluke]

Hey guys I'm not really sure where I should start so I will jump straight in!

Basically I'm looking for some good advice, all feedback and comments are appreciated.

 

On Saturday 1st of March, my partner and myself decided to get a takeout from a well established Indian restaurant (Aagrah, Quarry Hill, LEEDS), where we regularly dine! The only parking available to my knowledge is to the rear of the building which is a long duration car park shared with west yorkshire playhouse, so alas I decided to park in front of the restaurant while we went inside to collect our order, this took a little longer than expected as they were extremely busy!

 

Upon returning to my car I noticed I had been given a Parking Ticket for £80, which if not payed increases to £120 after seven days, I couldn't help but think to myself that something wasn't right so I checked out the internet and found this friendly forum with its vast amounts of knowledge.

 

My problem now is I am unsure what action to take if any?

 

Below are pictures of the fine itself as well as where I was parked.

[pin1onu]

Hello, Welcome to the forums.

 

What you have here is private parking invoice. It is mimicing a Penalty Charge Notice issued by councils operating Decriminalised Parking Enforcement. Unlike those it is a civil notice and has no statuatory backing. You are under no legal obligation to provide them with any information and the onus is on them to prove their case.

 

The amount is a Penalty charge and un-enforcable under existing case law (Dunlop).

 

Have a read of the sticky Private Parking Charges/Companies at the top of this forum. Have a read of Bernie the Bolts template letters for examples of how to respond.

 

Don't pay them a penny.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

All the information you could possibly want is in the stickies at the top of this forum.

[adampaddam]

Do not be afraid, Do not pay it, do not admit to driving, take all advice from posters, ignore all letters.

[Jodieluke]

Ok, thank you very much for the replies, I am amazed to see how many people come here looking for advice - just goes to show what a massive problem these cowboys are becoming, I'm sure the majority of people will just pay the fine without thinking about it!

[Barnsley Boy]

Jodieluke,

 

You have been good advice, don't even dream about paying. You will get lots of garbage through the post. Some of these parking companies are very persistant - stand firm - the threats are empty.

 

The below is lifted from Adenuff's posting

 

A typical Private Parking Company might have an intimidating standard threat letter that says something like this

 

"FINAL REMINDER BEFORE LEGAL ACTION" "Failure to pay the full balance outstanding within 7 days of the date of this notice could result in the balance outstanding being registered as a debt against you in the County Court. A warrant may then be issued to bailiffs to recover payment. You will also become liable for the additional fees of the County Court and the bailiff together with any legal costs and interest involved. Your ability to obtain credit in the future could be affected"

 

This whole paragraph is a total misrepresentation designed to indicate that if you don't pay now, everything will be taken out of your hands and all sorts of dire things will happen. Total cods

 

1. Failure to pay now cannot of itself result in anything being registered against you as a debt in the County Court

 

2. In order for you to get a CCJ (County Court Judgement) registered against you ALL of the following have to take place

(a) the company concerned have to issue a claim against you. This costs them a fee, typically £30.00 for a normal parking ticket

(b) you either do not enter a defence because you forgot, are daft or some other reason ( in which case the Claimant will request a judgement in default)

OR

much less likely the case actually goes to a hearing and you lose

© that having lost, you do not pay the Judgement debt within 28 days of the judgement being entered against you.

 

A Bailiffs warrant would only be issued if you lost and didn't pay the judgement debt as instructed by the judge.

 

Your credit rating would only be affected if you had a CCJ which you didn't pay

 

Your credit rating is assessed by combining information about you available in the public domain (such as unsatisfied CCJs, Bankruptcies and things like whether or not you are on the Electoral Roll) and information about you which is shared by the major lenders and which you have given them permission to share because it forms part of the credit agreement terms which you have to sign when you take out a loan or get a new credit card.

 

It does not include information provided by filthy [problematic] or other assorted scumbags

Remember that, despite what they say, private parking companies very rarely engage in legal action because they know they would lose a properly defended case.

[Jodieluke]

Just a quick note on whats been said, A CCJ is very serious, has anyone ever had one brought against them from not paying one of these "private parking fines" and/or what would be the amount payable if it got to the point where a CCJ is brought against the defendant?

[pin1onu]

Just a quick note on whats been said, A CCJ is very serious, has anyone ever had one brought against them from not paying one of these "private parking fines" and/or what would be the amount payable if it got to the point where a CCJ is brought against the defendant?

 

Relax. It's really very unlikely to court. Remember they have to prove who the driver was, prove their terms are fair, prove that the charge isn't a penalty. If they can't prove who the driver was the case is a non-starter. The onus of proof in a civil case lies with the claimant. You are under no legal obligation to help them or to incriminate yourself. You have the right to remain silent.

 

One chap who runs a PPC and used to post here (he got banned for violating forum rules I beleive) claimed he had taken people to court for ignoring these sorts of charges and gotten a judgement against them. That said it is suspected that the defense was not properly argued or put to the court. There is case law plus statute law that stands against these charges. As I've said if they can't prove who the drive was then the case it is a non-starter anyway.

 

If by some remote possibility you did lose your case you would only have to pay the original amount demanded. Much as they would like to hit you with other amounts they can't. The court can add costs incurred by the defendant normally about £30 (the filing fee) and maybe something on top for travelling expenses incurred and so on. However this is at the courts discretion and direction.

 

For the record a CCJ isn't necessarily a problem. If you pay it in the time allocated by the court then it's simply marked as satisfied on the register. The problems come when you don't pay and the judgement has to be enforced - bailiffs start getting involved and add their charges. That is when your credit record will become adversely affected. If you are applying for finance you would need to mention the CCJ give details and mention that the debt was satisfied. My partner has a CCJ against her, courtesy of an over zealouos legal firm and our crappy ex-insurance company (Direct Line). It hasn't affected our credit rating one bit as the debt has been marked satisfied.

[Barnsley Boy]

Jodieluke,

 

The chance of a PPC taking you to court really is over 1000 to 1. There are hundreds of thousands of non payers up and down the country and only a handful of court cases are known about. Of those, the Parking Company has not turned up in the majority of cases.

 

Relax, don't worry, get on with your life.

[Jodieluke]

Again thank you for the detailed replies, you have put my mind at rest!

[Jodieluke]

Ok news just in! Today I received a follow up letter from the company that issued me a "parking ticket" insisting that I have to pay them the new fee of 120 pounds in order to prevent them taking me to court.

 

"DO NOT IGNORE THIS NOTICE"

 

Any advice? is this the point where you would send of one of the template letters and if so which one? I have made absolutely no correspondence as of yet. Im starting to get a bit more worried now they have decided to follow up the initial ticket.

 

 

[Barnsley Boy]

Jodieluke,

 

RELAX - so far, so predictable.

 

The relevant template would be:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]

 

I acknowledge receipt of your captioned letter. It seems that you have got my details from the DVLA and I confirm I am the keeper of the vehicle in question. You need to take this matter up with the driver concerned.

 

In the meantime I absolutely deny your claim that the amount claimed, or any amount at all, is due to you from me.

 

Yours faithfully

[Jodieluke]

Hello again helpful people!

 

Today I received further correspondence in reply to the first template letter which I sent, this reads...

"We acknowledge receipt of you challenge to the above parking notice. Despite careful consideration of the circumstances, we have not found sufficient grounds to cancel the charge.

 

Whilst we understand your concern at receiving the notice, it is entirely the motorist's responsibility to satisfy themselves before leaving their vehicle, that they are not contravening any regulations.

 

When the notice was issued the vehicle in question was parked in a restricted area of the car park. This area is clearly signed and it is not unreasonable to expect drivers to check the signs of situ.

 

Our position regarding this is that if you are the owner and registered keep of the said vehicle, it is your responsibility to provide proof that you were not in charge of the vehicle at the time of the contravention. Details of the driver need to be provided to prevent further action being taken against yourself in connection to this notice. we can legally pursue the registered owner of the vehicle.

 

The payment required is 120 to be received within our office by 5 April 2008. failure to comply will result in the issue of court proceedings whereby further costs will be incurred."

 

So my big questions are, does this look like the common course of action these companies take and also what advice would be given for my next actions? please.

 

Kind regards!

 

Jodie.

[pin1onu]

Hello again helpful people!

 

Today I received further correspondence in reply to the first template letter which I sent, this reads...

"We acknowledge receipt of you challenge to the above parking notice. Despite careful consideration of the circumstances, we have not found sufficient grounds to cancel the charge.

No of course not they want your money.

Whilst we understand your concern at receiving the notice, it is entirely the motorist's responsibility to satisfy themselves before leaving their vehicle, that they are not contravening any regulations.

Yes the drivers responsibility but what regulations? Road Traffic Act 1991? Take it up with the driver.

 

When the notice was issued the vehicle in question was parked in a restricted area of the car park. This area is clearly signed and it is not unreasonable to expect drivers to check the signs of situ.

Yes the drivers responsibility. Take it up with them.

 

Our position regarding this is that if you are the owner and registered keep of the said vehicle, it is your responsibility to provide proof that you were not in charge of the vehicle at the time of the contravention. Details of the driver need to be provided to prevent further action being taken against yourself in connection to this notice. we can legally pursue the registered owner of the vehicle.

Ah sorry No. This is a civil case. The onus of proof is on the PPC to prove who was in charge of the vehicle. You are under no legal obligation to provide this information. Ask them to cite the relevant statute or case law to prove contrary.

 

A third party cannot be made party to a contract without their consent.

The payment required is 120 to be received within our office by 5 April 2008. failure to comply will result in the issue of court proceedings whereby further costs will be incurred."

They need to seek payment from the driver.

 

So my big questions are, does this look like the common course of action these companies take and also what advice would be given for my next actions? please.

 

Kind regards!

 

Jodie.

 

Jodie,

 

They are being boringly predictable. Use the template letters, using the suggestions above. They is just another threatening letters and they are trying to intimidate you into paying.

 

It may comfort you to know that recently a PPC lost a county court case because the judge ruled the amount (£100) a penalty charge and therefore un-enforceable. (See this thread.) They're asking £120 and while the decision quoted isn't binding on other courts it a good indication as to the way these cases will go if they are argued properly.

[adampaddam]

Jodieluke take a look at this:

Judge quashes £300 parking fine...because it set out to ‘frighten and intimidate’ driver | the Mail on Sunday

[Barnsley Boy]

Jodieluke,

 

Nothing material to add except to say I'm in complete agreement with everything that Pin1onu has said.

 

The main problem that PPCs have is "who is their contract with". Councils and the Police have got legislation (the Road Traffic Act) which gets round all this by making the Owner responsible, whoever was actually driving. The PPCs answer? Simple really, just pretend that they have the same powers, pathetic when you think about it.

 

As has been said, the response you've received is completely standard fare from a PPC, the usual balderdash and small round objects. Either use the templates or ignore.

[Jodieluke]

I received further correspondence today regarding the last letter I sent them..

 

Mine read like this -

 

You appear to claim that I, as keeper, am legally responsible for this alleged debt. I deny this. Please substantiate this claim with appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.

A third party cannot be made party to a contract without their consent, you need to seek payment from the driver.

Unless you provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me I shall be unable to assist you further in this matter and I restate my denial of this claim.

 

The reply I received can be found here -

http://i27.tinypic.com/28br8yx.jpg

 

Looking for advice on what actions I should take next, if I should send another letter I am unsure what to write...

 

As usual, all advice is appreciated!

[pin1onu]

I received further correspondence today regarding the last letter I sent them..

 

Mine read like this -

 

You appear to claim that I, as keeper, am legally responsible for this alleged debt. I deny this. Please substantiate this claim with appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.

A third party cannot be made party to a contract without their consent, you need to seek payment from the driver.

Unless you provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me I shall be unable to assist you further in this matter and I restate my denial of this claim.

 

The reply I received can be found here -

http://i27.tinypic.com/28br8yx.jpg

 

Looking for advice on what actions I should take next, if I should send another letter I am unsure what to write...

 

As usual, all advice is appreciated!

 

This is rich.

 

Here's some questions for you to ask them?

 

Ask them to share the name and date of this decision that went to court of appeal. (This is a complete load of BS)

 

Ask them what or who the registered owner is.

 

There is no such thing - there must be a registered keeper but they are not necessarily the owner. The owner does not have to be registered with anyone

.

Ask them what law they are quoting that means you as the RK must know who was driving?

The RK is merely the receiver for official documents. Unlike speeding tickets you don't have to name the driver. Remind them the onus of proof is on them.

Ask them when they seek the court order what the law they are going to use to force you to disclose the driver.

They can apply for a court order but a judge will say no and probably tick them off if they are silly enough to try this. There is no legislation or case law to force you to name the driver - even if you do know who it is.

 

I think a letter making these points and a cease and desist request is in order. In short politely tell to FOAD (FO and Die).

 

Use the templates as I think most of the points raised are covered in there.

[Barnsley Boy]

Pin1onu,

 

I must commend your recommendation of FOAD [above posting] as opposed to the more biblical GFAM [Go forth and multiply]. When you think about it, the last thing we want is even more PPC [problematic] ruuning about.

[Jodieluke]

Another week another reply, this time they attached two a4 sheets with pictures of my vehicle, no driver, just my vehicle parked up.

 

This is the last letter i sent them...

Dear Sirs,

 

Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]

 

At this juncture there is nothing further that I can add to my letter of dd mmmm yyyy (copy enclosed).

 

In your latest letter you made reference to the registered owner. I am advised that there is no such thing. I have acknowledged being the registered keeper. I would point out the owner is not necessarily the same person.

 

As stated before You appear to claim that I, as registered keeper, am legally responsible for this alleged debt. I deny this. Please substantiate this claim with appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.

 

You also claim that "A recent a decision in the Court of Appeal has confirmed that provided adequate notice of unauthorised parking is given the driver/owner accepts the terms as set out and therefore consents to the penalty charge which may be incurred." I believe that this statement is factually incorrect and misleading. Would you please cite the case reference so I can access these public records for myself. It is my view that a third party cannot be made party to a contract without their knowledge and consent. However as already stated I have acknowledged being the registered keeper only. I have already asked you to take this matter up with the driver.

 

You have also alleged that as the registered keeper it is my responsibility to be aware of who is in possession of your vehicle at anytime. I refute this claim. While I am happy comply with such requests for information from legally authorised bodies, such as the police and and persons with a court order, I am under no legal obligation to provide this information to a third party such as yourself. Please substantiate this claim with appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.

 

You also state you will seek a court order to force disclosure of the driver. I will welcome the opportunity to defend this and all your other allegations in court and am confident of success. Of course you will be required to produce the evidence that I have requested and you have failed to provide. You will also have to answer to the court why you failed to do so.

 

I do not feel you are acting reasonably.

 

I have asked you to provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me and you have not done so. I feel that I have done all that I can to assist you. Unless you provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me I shall be unable to help you further in this matter.

 

This alleged debt therefore remains disputed by me. Save for supplying the evidence referred to above or confirming that the matter is now closed I must ask you to cease and desist correspondence with me

 

Other than as described above, any further correspondence from you or any other party in relation to this matter may result in a complaint to the authorities under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

And this is the reply I received today -

http://i30.tinypic.com/29av0uc.jpg

 

Im getting sick and tired of these people now! Has anyone managed to sustain the replies they get and live to tell the tale?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

IMHO, this is fine, it's a clear deadlock. Hang on to your papers, they have neither substantiated their claim nor answered your questions.

 

Highly likely that you will hear nothing more.

[Barnsley Boy]

You've sent a good letter, they've replied with the usual half truths and downright lies.

 

Some of these Parking Companies seem to feel the need to have the last word, let them.

[ThisIsRacket]

Dear Jodieluke

if search this forum you will find the threads of people who actually won this silly fight with PPCs. First, do not stress yourself, second read again the sticky. If it was me, I'd say something like this (IF ANYTHING AT ALL):

Sir/Madam

Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]

I refer to previous correspondence.I see that you continue making statements that contradict the Contract Law upon which you are basing your claim. I deem this very unreasonable of you in regards to this matter.

I have asked you to provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me and you have not done so. I feel that I have done all that I can to assist you.

Unless you provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me I shall be unable to help you further in this matter. More so if this case you will have to explain to the judge why you have failed to provide the evidence in a timely manner.

This alleged debt therefore still remains disputed by me. Save for supplying the evidence referred to above I must ask you to cease and desist correspondence with me.

Let me reiterate that, other than as described above, any further correspondence from you or any other party in relation to this matter will result in me making a complaint to the police under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997 and very probably Extortion of Money.

Yours faithfully