Private Ticketing Company ticket

[Lassitude]

Hi

 

I have not got all the details with me so I will post extra information in this thread when I am at home tonight, I just wanted to see what views you clever lot have initially. Here's what happened.

 

My car was parked at the local Maplins in my local town on Saturday whilst visiting that store and a PC World store on an adjacent trading park.

 

As the driver later found out there is a rule that if you leave the trading park on foot you will be liable for a penalty charge. The Maplins visited was on that trading park. After returning from PC World and Maplins the driver had received a ticket.

 

The ticket indicated the driver had been observed leaving the trading park and therefore had been issued a penalty charge of about £90, or £45 if the keeper pay within 14 days. This ticket was issued by a private ticketing company, I'll update you with the name later.

 

The notice the notice received is not actually a ticket and has no contact number other than the DVLA and stated that the registered owner would receive the ticket in the post. I believe all the details were recorded correctly on the notice the driver was given, although the notice number was torn off at the top of the slip so there was only half the number

 

The driver also have a receipt from the Maplins store timed at 11:40. The ticket was issued at 11:20.

 

What is the best way of dealing with this? Needless to say I do not want to or intend on paying it if at all possible.

 

thanks

 

Chris

[GuidoT]

Have a look here and here.

 

I will get this thread moved to the correct forum.

[Lassitude]

Thanks for that...i noticed after I posted it there was a specific place where this should have been posted..I refrained from posting again as that would be a second transgression on my part...

 

sorry!

 

Chris

[MARTIN3030]

Welcome to the site Chris.Will move this thread there.

Keep us posted.Would this by any chance be Eurocarparks ?

[Lassitude]

Thanks for the welcome, I think I have found a gem of a forum here. If I win this I'll donate half of the 14 day charge (£20 or so) to maintaining this forum....

 

Anyway to answer your question I am sure it's not Eurocarparks. I have a feeling it's something like UK Parking.... i'll post it tonight, together with details of the document.

 

 

 

 

thanks

 

Chris

[GuidoT]

Thanks for that...i noticed after I posted it there was a specific place where this should have been posted..I refrained from posting again as that would be a second transgression on my part...

 

sorry!

 

Chris

 

No need to apologise, this place can be a bit confusing to find your way around initially.

[emsgeorge]

This will be interesting - a PPC who issues a warnig notice, saying you have a ticket, but then sends it in the post.

 

Why pay £2.50 to the DVLA to get owners details, why not try to make them pay at the time of ticketing ??.

 

OP - please scan the sticker in if you can, and post it up for us to see.

[Lassitude]

OK I have an update and would greatly appreciate some advice. I got the letter today and the issuing company is UKPC. They have asked me to pay £45 within 14 days or the full sum of £90 within 28 days. They also suggest a representation can be made within 7 days of notice in writing to a PO box address in Iver.

 

I would like to upload scans of the 'Charge Certificate' and the 'Notification of Unauthorised Parking' that was placed on my car, however as I suspect these companies snoop this forum I am a little concerned that it would tip them off.

 

As previously discussed my contravention was down to the fact the driver parked on the retail park and left to visit another shop before visiting Maplins which is on the retail park that ticketed the driver. This ticket tells me 'I am in contravention of the parking control measures in place at the time' and the box that is ticked says Vehicle owner left site. I do have a receipt from Maplins to prove the fact that is within 20 minutes of the Notification being placed on my car The photo on the Charge Certificate does not show me leaving the site, although they may still have one of me doing so up their sleeve.

 

What is the best way to handle this based on these facts?:

 

1- The Driver did not approach the ticket placer even though I saw him up to his tricks, so there is no confrontation to contend with.

2- The Driver could argue that he/she has a receipt for a visit to one of the shops on site , although they will still argue the driver left site. However I guess they would have to prove it.

3- The signs were pretty small and the driver actually failed to notice them..I am going to pop out there to check them out, but wondered if there is any point arguing this point.

4- I am concerned that I will end up paying £90 after a lot of harassment from them so was considering paying up £45 and writing it off to experience, although I do feel like I am being blackmailed by them because of this.

 

thanks

 

Chris:mad:

[digger42]

Hi Lassitude,

Do not worry about them, and DO NOT PAY THEM they are [problematic],

I have had dealings with them and I used Bernie's templete letters, which you will find in the stickie's at the top of the forum.

If you look under the threads UKPC PARKING FINES in the forum you find the kind of letters that i have received and replied, in my posts.

Do not givein to them, they will eventually go away.

[gaz6078]

Hi Lassitude

Don't ever admit liability,do what I did when I got ticket from asda, don't pay! I argued that I was not the driver of the vehicle and they should send me the photographic evidence to support their claim, I argued I was in a meetintg at my office, AND GUESS WHAT I GOT THE TICKET QUASHED

[Sidewinder]

Chris

 

Don't worry about the fact that you may or may not have been seen leaving the site. This ticket relies on you having entered into a contract and agreeing to certain terms and to pay them money if you breached those terms - it is not a parking ticket backed by any law whatsoever. Did you agree to pay money if you visited a shop off site in addition to one on site? Were you even made aware of any specific terms which you were supposed to have accepted as a condition of parking? The answer is almost certainly 'No'. For UKPC to stand any chance whatsoever of claiming their money through the civil courts they would have to convince a Judge that the driver saw adequate signage and understood any specific terms written on them. I assume that there were signs in place and that you knew that they said something along the lines of 'For retail park customers only'? End of debate then for having not been shown and had explained any small print condition to explain that you could not go elsewhere as well as on the retail park then the ticket stands no chance of being enforced.

 

Either ignore them or in the first instance send a photocopy of the Maplin receipt with a letter telling them that you were a customer of the retail park on the day in question and ask them to not bother you further. If they do then tell them to issue proceedings and that you will look forward to defending the claim and will issue a counterclaim for your time and expenses. They will keep writing and so will a debt collector, but are extremely unlikely to go beyond that. If they do, then you will have a paper trail to prove that they have ignored your valid appeal.

[patdavies]

the box that is ticked says Vehicle owner left site.

 

They can no more know who the vehicle owner is than fly throught the air. Even the DVLA have no idea of who is the owner of a vehicle.

 

The vehicle owner may not have even been on site to be able to leave it!

[Barnsley Boy]

Lassitude,

 

If you choose to write to them then I would suggest using Bernie's templates. They are terse, giving nothing away, just answering a question with a question. You perhaps, are making the mistake of engaging with them, justifying your actions. The truth is you owe them nothing, not even the time of day.

 

Don't lie to them, as has been suggested, but don't admit to anything either. Don't initiate any correspondence, deny the existence of any contract, deny the existence of any debt. Absolutely no need to say anything more than that.

[Lassitude]

OK folks I have started my battle with UKPC. The first template letter has been sent to them recorded delivery. I am keeping all correspondence, receipts and recorded delivery tickets in a file, with the full intention of having a bit of a fight on my hands. Hopefully within a few letters they will provide me any evidence they have to prove I was driving, otherwise they can disappear up their own bumholes.

 

Having read many of the UKPC posts I am fully prepared (I hope) for any crap they throw my way, and if needs be i'll take 'em to court...although I don't think it will go that far.

 

Thanks for all the help so far...I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Chris

[Barnsley Boy]

Good Man - that's the spirit!

[Lassitude]

Here is the wording:

 

Dear Sir,

 

With Reference to the above Parking Charge Notice. As the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention you are responsible for the payment of the Parking Charge Notice.

 

There are sufficient signs within this area warning vehicle owners that should they leave their vehicle unattended without permission this will result in a PCN being issued by post.

 

yours faithfully

 

PCN Parking Appeals Department

 

 

I am going to use the template for the second letter with the relevant paragraphs. Any suggestions as to anything else I could add would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Chris

 

 

[pin1onu]

Here is the wording:

 

Dear Sir,

 

With Reference to the above Parking Charge Notice. As the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention you are responsible for the payment of the Parking Charge Notice.

 

There are sufficient signs within this area warning vehicle owners that should they leave their vehicle unattended without permission this will result in a PCN being issued by post.

 

yours faithfully

 

PCN Parking Appeals Department

 

 

I am going to use the template for the second letter with the relevant paragraphs. Any suggestions as to anything else I could add would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Chris

 

Bernie's templates are pretty thorough.

 

Just make sure you point that you acknowledge being the RK and nothing else. Also include the paragraph asking them to substantiate their claim about the RK being responsible for the debt.

 

You don't need to include this but the actual contract law involved states that a third party cannot be made party to a contract without them being made aware of the terms and conditions and agreeing to the said terms.

 

Remember - Admit nothing - the onus is on them to prove who the driver was, that the driver saw the signs and entered into a contract and that the terms of the contract were fair and that the charges being asked for are not penalty charges. Will they be able to do that? Not very likely.

[Barnsley Boy]

Here is the wording:

 

Dear Sir,

 

With Reference to the above Parking Charge Notice. As the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention you are responsible for the payment of the Parking Charge Notice.

 

There are sufficient signs within this area warning vehicle owners that should they leave their vehicle unattended without permission this will result in a PCN being issued by post.

 

yours faithfully

 

PCN Parking Appeals Department

 

 

I am going to use the template for the second letter with the relevant paragraphs. Any suggestions as to anything else I could add would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Chris

 

You are most of the way there with this. As pin1onu has said, there is no way that the RK is responsible for actions of the driver. The PPC do know this. They are arguably commiting fraud by continuing to act as if the charge is someway official. If you write further asking for Statute and / or judicial precedent for their belief that RK is responsible for private parking charges allegedly incurred by the driver, and you get further BS back, that would be beautiful.

[Lassitude]

OK I have used a couple of the selectable paragraphs from the second template letter. I will send this to them today. Will keep you posted.

 

thanks

 

Chris

[Lassitude]

I got a reply from UKPC today, this is letter No 3 in two weeks if you include the initial invoice. It does not address any of the issues I raised in my previous two letters and seems to be some bullcrap stock response:

 

Dear Sir

 

Thank you for your recent communication concerning the above parking charge notice. Please rest assured that our appeals manager has personally reviewed this case and carefully considered the various points raised. Our view, however, is that these particular circumstances are neither unreasonable nor unjust and so we will not be waiving this parking charge in full.

 

You will be aware from the parking charge notice that we offer a 50% discount for parking charges paid within 7 days. As you lodged an appeal, we are prepared to extend this period for another 14 days from the date of this letter. But if we do not receive your remittance at the reduced rate by 15th February 2008, the full amount will then become payable and we will put the matter in the hands of our debt recovery agents.

 

We appreciate that this is not the outcome you will have hoped for. Unless you have any additional information that you have not already brought to our attention, this decision is final. Although further correspondence will be noted and filed, please do not expect any response from us except where you have provided evidence to substantiate your case.

 

We hope you will take advantage of the extended 50% discount period and send your remittance promptly.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

PCN Appeals Department

 

I think it's time for the cease and desist letter. It would seem they have no evidence to prove who was driving. I will send the stock letter unless anybody has a better idea.

 

thanks

 

Chris

[digger42]

Hi Lassitude,

 

That is a standard letter that you have received. Send them a cease and desist letter, you will then receive a letter from Hunter Forest.Co, Use Bernie's templete letter to reply to them, they will eventually go away.

[Lassitude]

As I mentioned in my previous post I sent letter 3, cease and desist about a week ago, UKPC have sent me a Final Reminder increasing the charge to £90 and threatening further charges if I do not pay.

 

One of the things the Final Notice says 'As owner/keeper of the vehicle you are legally liable to pay the parking charge even if you were not the driver at the time'. I am guessing they are talking twaddle with this statement.

 

Should I send another letter now or should I ignore it (as I have already told them to cease and desist)?

 

thanks

 

Chris

[GuidoT]

I would just ignore it, if you send them a letter they will just ignore it and send you another apparently more threatening letter.

[Lassitude]

I had the debt collection letter on Friday 29th Feb, asking me to settle approximately £115 immediately. I have not got the letter to hand, it's at home filed in the folder I have in case this ends up in court.

 

They even used the words 'penalty' and 'offense' a number of times in the letter, and to me it looks like they are trying to make it look as official as possible.

 

I replied using the 'Debt Collection' Template in these forums asking them to refer the case back to ticketing company, and telling them to cease all correspondence with me.

 

All correspondence I have sent to date has been 'signed for'...I don't want them denying receipt of any of my letters.

 

There is no way I am going to cave in to them. They still have not provided any evidence to prove it was me driving and that if I was I left the trading park whilst parked there (which is what they invoiced me for).

 

Anyhow just thought I would keep you all up to date....

 

thanks

 

Chris

[Mossycat]

Chris

 

This wasn't in Wakefield was it by any chance?

 

Mossycat